What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

[iamlamad]

Looking again at John 6:40 it says -
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes into Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day.

Are not the ones Jesus said He will raise on "the last day" there "everyone who beholds the Son and believes into Him"?

Why do you say the passage is about "Old Testament saints?"

We have to understand a given verse by considering all other verses on that same subject. I believe there is enough other verses to show that the resurrection of the church will not happen "on the last day." (Post-tribbers disagree.)

Here is my line of thinking: Jesus was talking to Jews about the end of their age. At that time, the Gentile church of today was a mystery hidden in the Father. Paul told us it was a mystery until revealed unto him. Jesus at that time probably did not know that the Jews would reject Him, that the Father would put blindness on the Jews, and would send Paul to the Gentiles. He laid aside is attribute of being all knowing. He only knew what the Father revealed to Him.

I believe that HUGE earthquake that shakes the mountains down is a strong hint of the moment that God raises those from before the flood. The flood could well have scattered the "dust" of a given body a thousand miles in every direction. I believe God will bring that dust together and reform that body with the same "dust" when the body died. This is my explanation of Matthew 27 where he wrote, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened...

I think God collected all the "dust" of the elders and reformed their bodies, so that when Jesus rose, He could resurrect the elders. This was an exceptional case for God wanted the earth at the timing of Christ's death.

Notice there will be an earthquake when the Two Witness are resurrected also. I believe it will be the very same earthquake at the 7th bowl.

 

[iamlamad]

Didn't I tell you about pre-trib death and post-trib resurrection? We're not on the same page as long as you stick to your alien abduction style rapture doctrine. That's a hype which doesn't exist in the bible.

Alien? No, sorry, but Jesus is not an alien. However, perhaps we could consider the Archangel an alien. And "abduction" is just the way Paul made it sound! We are to be SNATCHED up. There is no "hype." Paul wrote exactly what is going to happen. I have had two dreams of the rapture. In both, SUDDENLY I am flying up away from the ground. I am very much looking forward to God's escape plan rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

You can, I can't. Any valid interpretation and sound doctrine must have its foundation in the Torah. If it's not in the Torah, the first five books, then it's just man made doctrine.

I agree. It is mentioned 13 times in the Torah.

 

[iamlamad]

That is dispensationalist doctrine, Daniel never wrote such a gap. 9:27 described Jesus's ministry of three and a half years which started from his baptism at age 30, at the end of that he was crucified, hence the "cut off" part; that caused "the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" because Jesus was the ultimate sacrificial lamb, after him no more animal sacrifice was legally accepted by God. And the "abomination of desolation" is not limited within the 70 weeks, that's a reference to the siege of Jerusalem at 70 AD, Jesus warned about that in the Olivet Discourse. From 70 AD till the end, the temple mount shall be left desolate, and an abomination, which is the mosque, shall be set up, it will stay that way till the end. Jesus also prophecied about that specifically in Luke 21:20-24. The Antichrist, peace treaty, the third temple and other stuffs are just a political thriller.

You can certainly look at it this way. I believe that you will be shocked when you see the future 70th week play out just as John wrote it. I highly recommend you pray to be found worthy to escape what is coming! As per Hebrews 9:28 I hope you are eagerly looking for Jesus' coming. It could be this year. It could be this month. It could be this week...

 

[oikonomia]

You wrote the following:
"Verses 1 through 8 assure the seer that THROUGH the 3.5 year great tribulation a remnant of Israelites are assured to be preserved."

This is interpretation of the meaning of the verses 7:2,3 - And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea,
Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads.

Please though, always enjoy freshly reading the verses, even if you have a different interpretation.

"Verses 9 -17 is showing in a general way that through all history's tribulation God will preserve His total elect from eternal judgment."

This also is interpretation of verses 7:14b - These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I believe John tells us that the 144,000 are seen to heaven before the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of begins.

I understand your viewpoint.
This seems to me an intepretation that the 144,000 from the twelve tribes were sealed just before the start of the GT to be immediately raptured. But if that is the case I think it would say "Do not harm earth or sea until we have removed or (redeemed from the earth) . . . "

Also chapter 14 does not say THE hundred and forty-four thousand but simply a hundred and forty-four thousand.
A valid interpretation of Rev. 14:1-6 is that it is about ANOTHER remnant of a hundred and forty four-thousand.

I could not insist on it. But after some years of re-study and contemplation, I am persuaded that it is another 144,000.

I don't believe "all history" fits the crowd, too large to number.

So the interpretation of "great tribulation" in 7:14 could mean the trials of all human history since man was on the earth?

I believe this is the just-raptured church which limits the group to only those who are born again. It is impossible that OT saints were "born again" before they passed. The born again walk was impossible before Christ died and rose again.

So I think "great tribulation" could mean all human history. But you have a doubt that some in that crowd could not be regenerated.
But I believe that every human being whose destiny is the New Jerusalem is regenerated as a son of God.

So when and how pre-new covenant age believers received the divine life of God, I may not know.
But that the enumerbable multitude being tabernacled over and led to fountains of waters of life have all received those waters of life.
We are told that the fountain of divine life springing up in man unto eternal life is the Third Person of the Triune God, the Spirit.

John 4:14 - But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life.

John 7:38,39 - He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Perhaps I did not choose my words carefully when I wrote "depart." Are we adding to what is written? I don't think so. I think we are trying to understand the intent of the Holy Spirit.

It is OK. It is good to test an interpretation closely. Believe me, I have tested many things before I teach them to others.
I also stand on the shoulders of others who have long studied and contemplated these things before, as I am sure you also do.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I agree. It is mentioned 13 times in the Torah.

No, it's not. Nowhere in the Torah teaches that we'll ascend into high heaven. But at least we agree that the 144,000 is the same group.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Alien? No, sorry, but Jesus is not an alien. However, perhaps we could consider the Archangel an alien. And "abduction" is just the way Paul made it sound! We are to be SNATCHED up. There is no "hype." Paul wrote exactly what is going to happen. I have had two dreams of the rapture. In both, SUDDENLY I am flying up away from the ground. I am very much looking forward to God's escape plan rapture.

I've never said either Jesus or the archangel is an alien, this "alien" rhetoric is from the lamestream media, in case you didn't notice. The concern is, if the church fails to explain what it is other than mindlessly repeating the "harpazo" definition, the lamestream media will step in and deceive you with an illusion, which includes the Left Behind series. As long as the rapture is taught as a "sudden disappearance" event, it's gonna be perceived as alien abduction. The real rapture is our RESURRECTION from the grave when Jesus returns to EARTH, period.

 

[oikonomia]

The real rapture is our RESURRECTION from the grave when Jesus returns to EARTH, period.

The reason why the Firstfruits seen in heaven have a unique song is because of all humans they have a unique experience.
That is of never tasting physical death.

And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth. (14:3)

Now God is happy with many saints who have lived unto Him.
But He does reserve a remnant who like Enoch who walked with God and was not found,
these FIrstfruits lived follow Christ simply because of His incomparable preciousness.
We all should want to be like this. You don't know if you will not be among this group.
Maybe you and I will.

Paul said he lived and wanted to know the power of Christ resurrection even as he lived.

To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, (Phil. 3:10)

Notice that he mentions "the power of His resurrection" before he mentions "the fellowship of His sufferings."
Christ death conquering power, His resurrection life is the very factor which equiped Paul to suffer.

In this significant instance it is not the suffering FIRST followed by resurrection. Rather Paul is ready for
any suffering because he already lives Christ. Christ Himself said "I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25) even before He was executed.

In Second Corinthians Paul and his co-workers lived a resurrection life daily.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us. (2 Cor. 4:7)
Always bearing about in the body the putting to death of Jesus that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
For we who are alive are always being delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. (v.10,11)

A remnant of the church living on earth before the start of the GT, living in resurrection will enjoy
transfiguration and rapture bypassing the experience of PHYSICAL death. This is their uniqueness of their
experience and the beautify and tumultuos and solemn celebrating song they arrive in heaven to sing.

And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp-singers playing on their harps. And they sing a new song before the throne . . . (Rev. 14:2,3a)

 

[oikonomia]

No, it's not. Nowhere in the Torah teaches that we'll ascend into high heaven. But at least we agree that the 144,000 is the same group.

Yes, you and iamIamad agree here. That is fine. Whether they are the same or not I would
like to emphasize the purpose of the vision of Firstfruits in chapter 14.

You see we Christians tend to think in terms mostly of our need is to be rescued.
We tend to view much in Revelation as God reacting to us being in dier need to be rescued.
There is also the divine need to be satisfied with our love for love's sake.

There is also the side of some simply being pleasing to the Father quite irrespective of this.
God is happy when trial and persecution force us to turn to Him. Most follow the Lamb because of the need to be rescued from trials.
A remnant will follow the Lamb simply because the Lamb in incomparablely precious in Himself.

The Triune God is also happy when a remnant of lovers so turn to Him JUST BECAUSE He is so wonderful - period.

The lover in Song of Songs was asked "What is your beloved above any other's beloved?"
She responds in essence that she just loves her beloved for who he is, that's all.

This is the testimony of the end time Firstfruits who appear in heaven before the start of the GT.
They are a testimony of the satisfaction the Father and the Son have in them simply because of their following Christ for His
incomparable beauty. No one could compete with the Lamb or ever compare with Him in their hearts.

. . . and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth.
These are they who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are they who follow the Lamb wherever He may go. These were purchased from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
And in their mouth no lie was found; they are without blemish. (Rev. 14:3b-5)

Now personally, I do not think the verse means that they are all males.
I believe all virgins means they loved the Lord above any earthly joy, even that of marriage.

I also believe that "no lie was found" in their mouth means they are all confessed up and keep their consciences
void of offense before God and men all the time. To always confess when you err is to be in the truth continually.

In this post I have not argued whether it is the same group in chapter 7 or not.
Rather I have tried to show God faithfully recognizes the SOME of His children will simply live unto Him
and suddenly find themselves in heaven "purchased from the earth" TESTIFYING a pre-tribulation pleasingness to God.

And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice out of heaven . . . (Rev, 14:1,2a)

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The reason why the Firstfruits seen in heaven have a unique song is because of all humans they have a unique experience.
That is of never tasting physical death.

And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth. (14:3)

Now God is happy with many saints who have lived unto Him.
But He does reserve a remnant who like Enoch who walked with God and was not found,
these FIrstfruits lived follow Christ simply because of His incomparable preciousness.
We all should want to be like this. You don't know if you will not be among this group.
Maybe you and I will.

Paul said he lived and wanted to know the power of Christ resurrection even as he lived.

To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, (Phil. 3:10)

Notice that he mentions "the power of His resurrection" before he mentions "the fellowship of His sufferings."
Christ death conquering power, His resurrection life is the very factor which equiped Paul to suffer.

In this significant instance it is not the suffering FIRST followed by resurrection. Rather Paul is ready for
any suffering because he already lives Christ. Christ Himself said "I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25) even before He was executed.

In Second Corinthians Paul and his co-workers lived a resurrection life daily.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us. (2 Cor. 4:7)
Always bearing about in the body the putting to death of Jesus that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
For we who are alive are always being delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. (v.10,11)

A remnant of the church living on earth before the start of the GT, living in resurrection will enjoy
transfiguration and rapture bypassing the experience of PHYSICAL death. This is their uniqueness of their
experience and the beautify and tumultuos and solemn celebrating song they arrive in heaven to sing.

And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp-singers playing on their harps. And they sing a new song before the throne . . . (Rev. 14:2,3a)

Trust me, I don't question about this remnant, I actually believe these are the ones who are living to welcome the return of Christ. Out of the twelve disciples, eleven were martyred, yet God kept John alive to receive this end time vision. Jesus had actually announced this plan to Peter in John 21:20-22 -

Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays you?" Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man?" Jesus said to him, "If I wil that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow me."

However, you and I cannot put our hope on this, because I've said many times, this is just the 144,000 remnants, not universal for all believers. Whoever they are and whenever they are sealed, they are the first fruits, we are the other fruits, just follow the Lord and trust in him.

 

[oikonomia]

However, you and I cannot put our hope on this, because I've said many times, this is just the 144,000 remnants, not universal for all believers. Whoever they are and whenever they are sealed, they are the first fruits, we are the other fruits, just follow the Lord and trust in him.

Sure we can put our hope in being among the Firstfruits, if not in identity in principle.
We can pray and hope that we are part of a corporate body that are raptured before the GT.

I don't care about whether we are a card carrying member of a group of 144,000 specific people.
But from the living on earth the Lord Jesus will purchase some before the GT.

It is in His hands. Yet it is also a matter of our love and cooperation.
Never look around and simply think you too have to be average.
And never think to love the Lord so is a matter of being in an elite group.
It is only to be normal according to His grace.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Sure we can put our hope in being among the Firstfruits, if not in identity in principle.
We can pray and hope that we are part of a corporate body that are raptured before the GT.

I don't care about whether we are a card carrying member of a group of 144,000 specific people.
But from the living on earth the Lord Jesus will purchase some before the GT.

It is in His hands. Yet it is also a matter of our love and cooperation.
Never look around and simply think you too have to be average.
And never think to love the Lord so is a matter of being in an elite group.
It is only to be normal according to His grace.

Thanks, I'd rather pray and hope for my santification and preparation. Santify me from the abominations all around me, and prepare me for the upcoming crisis - world war III with China, food shortage, next p(l)andemic or all of the above.

 

[oikonomia]

Thanks, I'd rather pray and hope for my santification and preparation.

Essentially this is the same thing.

Santify me from the abominations all around me, and prepare me for the upcoming crisis - world war III with China, food shortage, next p(l)andemic or all of the above.

 

[iamlamad]

I've never said either Jesus or the archangel is an alien, this "alien" rhetoric is from the lamestream media, in case you didn't notice. The concern is, if the church fails to explain what it is other than mindlessly repeating the "harpazo" definition, the lamestream media will step in and deceive you with an illusion, which includes the Left Behind series. As long as the rapture is taught as a "sudden disappearance" event, it's gonna be perceived as alien abduction. The real rapture is our RESURRECTION from the grave when Jesus returns to EARTH, period.

Period? You seem so sure! Yet Paul told us that a select group—those who are alive when Jesus comes (only to the air so a different coming)—will not be in any grave. That is what "alive" means. This select group will just be changed—meaning, we will get a resurrection body without dying.

Since the normal eyes of normal humans cannot see into the realm of the spirit, I believe the rapture will be unseen. It will be noisy, but unseen, unless God chooses to make us visible.

I disagree with your timing.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Period? You seem so sure! Yet Paul told us that a select group—those who are alive when Jesus comes (only to the air so a different coming)—will not be in any grave. That is what "alive" means. This select group will just be changed—meaning, we will get a resurrection body without dying.

Since the normal eyes of normal humans cannot see into the realm of the spirit, I believe the rapture will be unseen. It will be noisy, but unseen, unless God chooses to make us visible.

I disagree with your timing.

That's where the 144,000 fit in, and it ain't gonna be secret - or unseen. If it's unseen, that's because earth dwellers choose not to see, they are being spiritually blind.

 

[Diamond72]

"rapture" is a christian doctrine about MASS RESURRECTION at the end times.

All believers are raptured when they die. We are separated from our Body until the resurrection. Resurrection and rapture are not the same at all. There were quite a few people resurrected along with Jesus. WE never hear a word about what happened to them.

 

[Diamond72]

we will get a resurrection body without dying.

Do we have to get on a waiting list or anything for that?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

All believers are raptured when they die. We are separated from our Body until the resurrection. Resurrection and rapture are not the same at all. There were quite a few people resurrected along with Jesus. WE never hear a word about what happened to them.

There were saints being resurrected outside of Jerusalem when Jesus was crucified (Matt. 27:52-53), nobody was resurrected when Jesus was resurrected.

 

[Diamond72]

There were saints being resurrected outside of Jerusalem when Jesus was crucified (Matt. 27:52-53), nobody was resurrected when Jesus was resurrected.

The question is, what happened to them?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The question is, what happened to them?

Probably died again, like Lazarus, and waiting for the real resurrection that leads to eternal life.