Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[ToBeLoved]

The problem I see with many Lexicon studies these days, is that people disbelief what their Bible says in the English as a result of them. Little do they realize that their English Bible was translated from that language. They are saying they are better than the translators and they must have messed up. They are saying the Lexicon guys got it right and the Bible was not preserved in our world language today.

You can start a new thread arguing Lexicons and their uses.

But why are you afraid of a preposition of the Greek word 'from'? That is the question.

Now explain to me how 'laying a foundation' is not connected to the phrase 'dead works' using that preposition, which is 'from'?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you think the Greek Lexicon is giving me the wrong definition for the word 'from'?

That's a pretty bad argument. It's a preposition.

It doesn't seem like the word 'from' is used in too many ways here.

You missed my point entirely.
I was referring to your general use or trust in Lexicons.
How do you know the Lexicon guys got it right (generally speaking)?

 

[mark kennedy]

Please show me where I have set up a straw man argument?
Are you saying that you are not justifying sin because of your statement that you believe David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder?

If so, it is not a straw man argument. It is a logical and moral argument.
Murder is horrible. We may talk about it here as if it is no big deal, but if murder came to a person's door and hit their own family, they would feel destroyed in some way or violated. It would be hard to get over something really bad happening like that for a family. Yet, folks here right that sin off like it is no big deal. God will save that horrible evil person who has not repented yet all while a family member suffers. God is not unjust. God is good.

Dirst I'm responding to her statement that your arguing against things she doesn't believe and never said, that's a strawman argument plain and simple. Secondly you managed to miss my whole point, one if the men Joab murdered was an important leader who opposed David, people I'm sure suspected what hapoened. When a murderer wasn't caught the fuilt feel on the xity elders to catch him, if they failed they could wash their hands assuming every honest effort was made. Now compare that to a man who commits two murders at least, and two more maybe including Davids' son Absolum. It's a sinple question Jason, is that a sin or not. If you can lose salvation over sin why dies this sin get a pass? Was he saved whike he habored this murderer?

 

[ToBeLoved]

So initial salvation is what Hebrews 6:1 is talking about.
Copy that.
Okay, you cannot lay this foundation again!
That is what it is saying.
It says... NOT LAYING AGAIN the foundation of repentance.

The foundation is not salvation. The foundation is what our motivation are for the things we do and what we would need to repent from. Jesus is either doing the works through us or we have dead works that are not being done through Christ.

Your really missing the boat here.

At the end of the verse it tells us where our foundation should be layed, in faith, baptism, ressurection

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You can start a new thread arguing Lexicons and their uses.

But why are you afraid of a preposition of the Greek word 'from'? That is the question.

Now explain to me how 'laying a foundation' is not connected to the phrase 'dead works' using that preposition, which is 'from'?

The author is writing to HEBREWS. Hebrews did what? Many of them continued in the sacrificial system and refused to accept their Messiah (Jesus) initially. The author is writing to Messianic Jews or Hebrew Christians. Their repentance of dead works is in regards to their false continuation in the Old system of animal sacrifices when they should have accepted Christ's sacrifice or atonement. They are repenting of the dead works of killing animals (when that did not apply anymore).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Verses please.

You don’t know those verses? Ok, but I’ll have to do this tomorrow?

Can you supply the verses where Jesus promises to force the sheep back? Btw, why did Jesus described the sheep by what they did and not being “saved?”

 

[ToBeLoved]

You missed my point entirely.
I was referring to your general use or trust in Lexicons.
How do you know the Lexicon guys got it right (generally speaking)?

They are a tool to study the Bible. Just like maps are a tool. or a hammer.

Again, start a new thread about this topic.

Back to Hebrews 6:1

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So initial salvation is what Hebrews 6:1 is talking about.
Copy that.
Okay, you cannot lay this foundation again!
That is what it is saying.
It says... NOT LAYING AGAIN the foundation of repentance.

That is NOT what it says at all. It tells not to do so, not that we cannot which actually makes no sense. Paul doesn’t tell us not to do things we cannot possibly do anyway.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The author is writing to HEBREWS. Hebrews did what? Many of them continued in the sacrificial system and refused to accept their Messiah (Jesus) initially. The author is writing to Messianic Jews or Hebrew Christians. Their repentance of dead works is in regards to their false continuation in the Old system of animal sacrifices when they should have accepted Christ's sacrifice or atonement. They are repenting of the dead works of killing animals (when that did not apply anymore).

Or dead works could have been them relying on keeping the Law and not on Christ's atonement.

But it doesn't specifiy animal sacrifices so you cannot ascertain that from the verse. It could be any works they were relying on to get them to heaven and not relying completely on the finished work and shed blood of Jesus Christ.

You should not add your own understanding or thoughts to what the verse says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dirst I'm responding to her statement that your arguing against things she doesn't believe and never said, that's a strawman argument plain and simple.

I hate to falsely misrepresent people and what they actually believe and said. I would appreciate it if you pointed out what words I said that she did not believe. Granted, a person can say they don't justify sin, but if we see them live a life that is in sin, then their actions speak another story. It is the same with one's words. If a person make a statement that is contradictory to what they said, then their own words condemn them. Saying David was saved in his sins is to justify his sin (When the Bible clearly condemns a murderer - 1 John 3:15, and or an adulterer - Proverbs 6:32, Matthew 5:28-30). How many times does a person need to sin in order to say they are not saved? Before we say that is a justification of sin? At what threshold of sin do we reach before someone may say... Oh okay... it is the 98th time that Rick can murder whereby we can say Rick is justifying sin. No. It only takes a justification of one grievous sin with the thinking we are saved to justify sin. It does not take lots of sin to justify sin; Anymore than it would it would it take one act of my defending a fire fighter fighting a fire one time to justify fire fighting.

Secondly you managed to miss my whole point, one if the men Joab murdered was an important leader who opposed David, people I'm sure suspected what hapoened. When a murderer wasn't caught the fuilt feel on the xity elders to catch him, if they failed they could wash their hands assuming every honest effort was made. Now compare that to a man who commits two murders at least, and two more maybe including Davids' son Absolum. It's a sinple question Jason, is that a sin or not. If you can lose salvation over sin why dies this sin get a pass? Was he saved whike he habored this murderer?

I would need to examine that passage a little more closely and get back to you on that. We are now talking about King David and why you think it was morally just and good to God to save Him while he was committing murder and adultery. Do you believe that God can agree with sin?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Then why did you write there is so much disagreement about interpreting the passage?

Is there no disagreement?

Your understanding of the Greek verb tenses is deficient. Unlike the English language , the verb tense primarily shows ongoing action - not time.

So do English presence continous forms. But if you’re giving a warning, telling believers if they are not repenting there is no forgiveness is not telling them anything they don’t know. No warning is involved.

It does not reference any aspect of action regarding the future. I suggest you put in some study.

Then it was useless to say. They already knew that. Warnings are for the future.

 

[Neogaia777]

Don't know about the rest of you but I hope I will be judged by a rule and law of a "free people"...

For which rule and Law, (freedom) I think Jesus died for us (all hopefully) to have...

Or, "for which freedom Christ set us (or made or declared us) free"...

God Bless!

 

[mark kennedy]

It is impossible to renew them to repentance since/BECAUSE they are still rebelling by crucifying/shaming Christ. One cannot repent and keep purposely sinning. Yes of No?

No it's expressly because they have 'falling away', that's a New Testament expression indicating a falling away from the faith. The formal description is justification by grace through faith apart from works. If they return to legalism they lose Christ and can't return because that would be as if they crucified Christ again. Just as Christ's death was once and for all conversion happens once, not every time you sin.

If they stopped crucifying/shaming Christ and genuinely repented of their sin and sought God's forgiveness for their actions, would they be forgiven? Yes or No?
Quite simple questions for you.

No, this has nothing to do with their repentance at conversion, he moved on from that doctrine in verse 1. They are simple questions because the are elementary doctrines they should have been teaching by now but had to be retaught. The problem was they were drifting back into Judaism and the context of the proceeding 5 chapters is crystal clear.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is NOT what it says at all. It tells not to do so, not that we cannot which actually makes no sense. Paul doesn’t tell us not to do things we cannot possibly do anyway.

Hebrews 6
1 "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ. This is the foundation of accepting Christ. It says we are to go on unto perfection.

It then says, NOT LAYING AGAIN the foundation of repentance.
The foundation of my repentance is Jesus because Christ is my foundation.
Repentance of dead works is not a statement that applies to us but it applies to the Hebrews because they were offering animal sacrifices under the New Covenant. A messianic Jew during that time period who accepted Christ would realize that they were wrong to continue in the Old sacrificial system and they would repent of these dead works. They are NOT LAYING AGAIN their faith towards God by accepting Christ. They are NOT LAYING AGAIN their early teachings on baptisms, the laying on of hands, and other early teachings they would first receive when they came to the faith. They are told: "Let us go on unto perfection." (verse 1). This means to move on from the beginning of where they started with the principle doctrine of Christ. The foundation! The beginning. When you build a house, you first lay a foundation or a concrete slab, etc.

 

[LoveofTruth]

There was no "saved" prior to Christ's shed blood on the cross and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

David was always a child of God. He was loved by God before he did those things, during those things and after those things. God was always his shepherd, even when David went his own sinful ways.

Psalm 23 David knew God would be his shepherd "Forever". He knew God had him in his sight for all eternity. Believers now have the same confidence - God is mine forever and I am his forever.

All OT saints were saved they were called saints and children of God. We read of David saying,

“ Psalm 51 - 10. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dirst I'm responding to her statement that your arguing against things she doesn't believe and never said, that's a strawman argument plain and simple. Secondly you managed to miss my whole point, one if the men Joab murdered was an important leader who opposed David, people I'm sure suspected what hapoened. When a murderer wasn't caught the fuilt feel on the xity elders to catch him, if they failed they could wash their hands assuming every honest effort was made. Now compare that to a man who commits two murders at least, and two more maybe including Davids' son Absolum. It's a sinple question Jason, is that a sin or not. If you can lose salvation over sin why dies this sin get a pass? Was he saved whike he habored this murderer?

Let me give you an example. Do you believe I hold to Man Directed Works Salvationism?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I hate to falsely misrepresent people and what they actually believe and said. I would appreciate it if you pointed out what words I said that she did not believe.

You said i said heinous sin doesn’t separate us from God. Over and over agin you days this.

Granted, a person can say they don't justify sin, but if we see them live a life that is in sin, then their actions speak another story. It is the same with one's words. If a person make a statement that is contradictory to what they said, then their own words condemn them. Saying David was saved in his sins is to justify his sin (When the Bible clearly condemns a murderer - 1 John 3:15, and or an adulterer - Proverbs 6:32, Matthew 5:28-30).

You really are stuck on either or.

How many times does a person need to sin in order to say they are not saved? Before we say that is a justification of sin?

Since God didn’t tell David he was now unsaved, was God justifying his sin? Seems to be your measure so let’s apply it to God.

At what threshold of sin do we reach before we say... Oh okay... it is the 98th time I murder and say I am saved that a person is justifying sin.

Why not take God’s view for a change.

It only takes a justification of one grievous sin with the thinking we are saved to justify sin.

God is in trouble cause He didn’t condemn every sinner as “unsaved” to his face. What was He thinking being patient wanting them to
come to repentance?? Why not judge them as unsaved immediately. Why this gentleness??

It does not take lots of sin to justify sin; Anymore than it would it would it take one act of my defending a fire fighter fighting a fire one time to justify fire fighting.

And God tolerated Moses killing a man!!!

I would need to examine that passage a little more closely and get back to you on that. We are now talking about King David and why you think it was morally just and good to God to save Him while he was committing murder and adultery. Do you believe that God can agree with sin?

I prefer to agree with God no matter what His position is. He’s a little more patient and long suffering than you are.

 

[Neogaia777]

Or dead works could have been them relying on keeping the Law and not on Christ's atonement.

I agree...

At least, in the way that they were all trying to to do it anyway...

Cause Love is the fulfillment of the Law, and walking in Love is walking in the way of eventual fulfillment of the Law, and "Perfect" Love (love once perfected by walking in it) eventually fulfill's/obey's, and eventually and in time keeps, the OT Law covenant, or the morals of it, cause Love "discerns" it, but only in and with time of walking in it (Love)...

God Bless!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

All OT saints were saved they were called saints and children of God. We read of David saying,

“ Psalm 51 - 10. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.”

Nice!! Closer to the heart of God than many Christians if you ask me.

 

[Neogaia777]

Let me give you an example. Do you believe I hold to Man Directed Works Salvationism?

Can you show us that you don't or aren't maybe...?

Cause that might really help...

God Bless!