Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[Dorothy Mae]

NONE that were ever one of His own and were saved though!

How do you know that? He did not say they were not saved. He did not say they were not his own. He said they were workers of inquity or lawlessness. Hummmm seems he looked at their deeds. Didn't he know that deeds do not matter in salvation?

 

[ToBeLoved]

It is quite possible to fall away from the real and true faith a man had and JEsus explains how. It is real. It happens. Christians can fall away from the faith and become lost.

Jesus said that the good shepherd goes after the one lost one. So when does Jesus stop going after the one who strayed and that sheep is no longer a sheep once it strays?

Please list the verses that prove "salvation" is lost and that person is no longer a sheep or Christ's. Specifically.

And what is a 'real and true faith'. Christ says that faith is belief. I believe people stray and Jesus keeps calling them.

The issue is people judging what is 'real and true faith'. How is that measured in the Bible? Where is the cutoff and is Jesus the bad shepherd.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course it is, I've just dealt with him on James 2 and 1 John before at length so bo point pursuing it again, he wouldn't do an exposition then and doesn't want to now. Spamming verses out of context and generating mountains of rationalizations won't help his case. It's a simple exposition, the difficulty is due to the fact that the logic of his proposition is fatally flawed. The gospel is clear, we will struggle with sin right up until the return of Christ. Paul describes this at length in Romans six and seven, starting off with what shall we say then, which means, what shall we teach. In other words, it's a doctrinal discussion with a xonclusive determination with reqrds to the nature of the Christian's struggle with sin even post conversion. This atuff gets easier when you learn to take things the underlying principles.

Grace and peace,
Mark

He changes the words though and does not seem to ever grasp the position of the other. He keeps resurrecting statments that are supposed to be my position that I keep telling him I do not believe. He keeps beating dead horses and does not grasp what I really believe.

He also changes scripture tweeking it to suit his position. Hard to have a discussion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...

Look. You can play word games all you want with Hebrews 6:1. Just read Hebrews 3:12-14 and Hebrews 10:38-39 and it will become clear to you. Also, the example of Abraham inheriting the promise is used in Hebrews 6 (Which shows faith in action and not a mere belief alone). Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He changes the words though and does not seem to ever grasp the position of the other. He keeps resurrecting statments that are supposed to be my position that I keep telling him I do not believe. He keeps beating dead horses and does not grasp what I really believe.

He also changes scripture tweeking it to suit his position. Hard to have a discussion.

I thought before you were against OSAS and Calvinism. Now you appear to be agreeing with both a Calvinist and an OSAS Proponent in regards to Soteriology?

 

[Neogaia777]

How do you know that? He did not say they were not saved. He did not say they were not his own. He said they were workers of inquity or lawlessness. Hummmm seems he looked at their deeds. Didn't he know that deeds do not matter in salvation?

He looked at, looks at, their hearts, and what he saw was dark, but he did save some of them, or bring them back to repentance again, or revived them of their dead-ness, cause some of the Jewish Pharisees, and others of Jewish Law, converted and became Christians and committed themselves to following him and after him and in his ways, putting their faith and hope(s) and trust in him...

Those ones were probably saved...

Jesus created a divide and separation in them, sorting out the sheep from the goats...

God Bless!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus said that the good shepherd goes after the one lost one. So when does Jesus stop going after the one who strayed and that sheep is no longer a sheep once it strays?

Jesus would know that but it is over a long period of time and much rebellion. He is very patient but in the end, if the once believer refuses to come, then God lets him go. What else is He to do? The once believer does not want God or his home anymore. Should he force him?

Please list the verses that prove "salvation" is lost and that person is no longer a sheep or Christ's. Specifically

What do you think "fall away from the faith" means? But please provide me a scripture that says you are saved and can never lose that salvation. No metaphors. The real words "you are saved now and cannot ever lose your eternal life no matter what you do or how you behave."

Jesus even told us how and why people fall away from the faith. He gave details so we can take care it does not happen to us. Why would he do that if we can never fall away from the faith? (Fall away means lost same as if you fall down, you are no longer standing.)

 

[mark kennedy]

He changes the words though and does not seem to ever grasp the position of the other. He keeps resurrecting statments that are supposed to be my position that I keep telling him I do not believe. He keeps beating dead horses and does not grasp what I really believe.

He also changes scripture tweeking it to suit his position. Hard to have a discussion.

Yea it's called a strawman argument, arguing with things your opponent didn't say. It's a comnon falkacy and you can take verses out on context and put them together to mean anything you like, that's also very common and profoundly flawed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I thought before you were against OSAS and Calvinism. Now you appear to be agreeing with both a Calvinist and an OSAS Proponent in regards to Soteriology?

I am but you change the words of the Bible as one posted pointed out. I saw that as well. And you bombard us with verses instead of discussing a few with the surrounding texts.

You completely ignore what GOd had to say to David himself. He did not tell him he was unsaved. You miss that. IF God thought David was unsaved, why didn't he tell him? Why didn't the prophet quote the scriptures you did? Why was God so gentle and merciful? Why not lower the boom as you do? Pronounce "you are unsaved and here is the law why?"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yea it's called a strawman argument, arguing with things your opponent didn't say. It's a comnon falkacy and you can take verses out on context and put them together to mean anything you like, that's also very common and profoundly flawed.

Please show me where I have set up a straw man argument?
Are you saying that you are not justifying sin because of your statement that you believe David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder?

If so, it is not a straw man argument. It is a logical and moral argument.
Murder is horrible. We may talk about it here as if it is no big deal, but if murder came to a person's door and hit their own family, they would feel destroyed in some way or violated. It would be hard to get over something really bad happening like that for a family. Yet, folks here right that sin off like it is no big deal. God will save that horrible evil person who has not repented yet all while a family member suffers. God is not unjust. God is good.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am but you change the words of the Bible as one posted pointed out.

I can equally make the same claim of you in the fact that you changed "woman" to "women" in Matthew 5:28-30 and you ignore giving a proper explanation on Numbers 35:16-18, Leviticus 20:11, 1 John 3:15, Proverbs 6:32, and Matthew 5:28-30. You did not really give a convincing word by word commentary to those verses that would convince that your belief is true. I believe you are changing the Word of God by ignoring these verses in what they plainly say.

You also did not give me your own set of verses that prove that one grievous sin cannot separate you from GOD.

Oh, and Mark did not even bother to respond to even one verse in my list. That to me seems like he is avoiding something.

I saw that as well. And you bombard us with verses instead of discussing a few with the surrounding texts.

The Bible is not your enemy. I started to explain the verses, but he did not want to hear them.

You completely ignore what GOd had to say to David himself. He did not tell him he was unsaved. You miss that.

Again, a forgiven person does not seek forgiveness with GOD.
A saved person does not ask for his salvation back.
Please read again Psalms 51.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You think Hebrews 6:4-6 is in reference to an unbeliever. But Hebrews 6:1 talks about not laying again the foundation of repentance (Which is not possible for an unbeliever).

Hebrews 6:1 says,
"...not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,"

Unbelievers cannot ATTEMPT to lay AGAIN:

#1. The FOUNDATION by their REPENTANCE from dead works
#2. The FOUNDATION of their FAITH TOWARDS GOD.

Only a believer can attempt to do try to do this (Which is impossible) according to Hebrews 6:4-6.

You are way off interpreting this verse.

It says we should not lay a foundation or keep repenting from DEAD WORKS.

The DEAD WORKS and are laying a foundation in not Christ doing the good work inside of us through the Holy Spirit, but laying an incorrect foundation based off of not faith that it alive, CHrist in us, but by us trying to impress God on our own.

It is the dead works.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Look. You can play word games all you want with Hebrews 6:1. Just read Hebrews 3:12-14 and Hebrews 10:38-39 and it will become clear to you. Also, the example of Abraham inheriting the promise is used in Hebrews 6 (Which shows faith in action and not a mere belief alone). Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Jason I do believe that faith without works is dead. I do not believe as they do that God does it all. We have our part to do and He will not take over our part. I do not believe it comes with time if we do not deal with our own sin to some degree. But I do not think God is so small minded and harsh such that if we sin he pronounces us "unsaved again." Your view of Him is just too hard and that is where I do not agree with you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason I do believe that faith without works is dead. I do not believe as they do that God does it all. We have our part to do and He will not take over our part. I do not believe it comes with time if we do not deal with our own sin to some degree. But I do not think God is so small minded and harsh such that if we sin he pronounces us "unsaved again." Your view of Him is just too hard and that is where I do not agree with you.

To me: Their belief is distasteful because it mocks what Jesus did for us on the cross. So I would never give a like to their posts in regards to Soteriology. I would not give others the false impression that I am siding with them in regards to salvation. I also do not agree with your belief because it seeks to justify sin (a little bit). It is not as bad as what they believe, but it is still bad. It is still wrong from my reading of Scripture and my understanding of basic morality.

1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.

You cannot get around that one.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I can equally make the same claim of you in the fact that you changed "woman" to "women" in Matthew 5:28-30 and you ignore giving a proper explanation on Numbers 35:16-18, Leviticus 20:11, 1 John 3:15, Proverbs 6:32, and Matthew 5:28-30. You did not really give a convincing word by word commentary to those verses that would convince that your belief is true. I believe you are changing the Word of God by ignoring these verses in what they plainly say.

You also did not give me your own set of verses that prove that one grievous sin cannot separate you from GOD.

Oh, and Mark did not even bother to respond to even one verse in my list. That to me seems like he is avoiding something.



The Bible is not your enemy. I started to explain the verses, but he did not want to hear them.



Again, a forgiven person does not seek forgiveness with GOD.
A saved person does not ask for his salvation back.
Please read again Psalms 51.

You need to look at what God said to David. This you leave out. And you also need to realize that time makes a difference. You seem to ignore time as though all Psalms were written when you want them to be written. A forgiven man who sins again asks for forgiveness. Why is this difficult? David asked God not to take his Holy SPirit from him. Guess he had it and was concerned he would lose it.

You wrote, "You also did not give me your own set of verses that prove that one grievous sin cannot separate you from GOD." How many times do I need to write you that sin separates us from God? Can you please stop asking me for scriptures that say something I do not believe? Stop beating that dead horse. It is frustrating that you do not read my posts with comprehension. Once again and I hope the last time,

SIN SEPARATES US FROM GOD. Please stop asking me for scriptures that say it does not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

To me: Their belief is distasteful because it mocks what Jesus did for us on the cross. So I would never give a like to their posts in regards to Soteriology. I would not give others the false impression that I am siding with them in regards to salvation. I also do not agree with your belief because it seeks to justify sin (a little bit). It is not as bad as what they believe, but it is still bad. It is still wrong from my reading of Scripture and my understanding of basic morality.

1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.

You cannot get around that one.

I guess it was not the last time.

SIN SEPARATES US FROM GOD. Now please stop accusing me of justifying sin.

Again, Nathan the prophet did not tell David that no murdered has eternal life. Why not? IF you think that is what God has to say on the matter and all he has to say, why didn't he say it then? Please answer why God did not have your attitude towards David and his sin?

 

[Neogaia777]

Jason I do believe that faith without works is dead. I do not believe as they do that God does it all. We have our part to do and He will not take over our part. I do not believe it comes with time if we do not deal with our own sin to some degree. But I do not think God is so small minded and harsh such that if we sin he pronounces us "unsaved again." Your view of Him is just too hard and that is where I do not agree with you.

Not just too hard but impossible, is what I am trying to get at... And I also do not think it is "The Way" or "the ways" of Jesus Christ...

Anyhow,

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are way off interpreting this verse.

It says we should not lay a foundation or keep repenting from DEAD WORKS.

The DEAD WORKS and are laying a foundation in not Christ doing the good work inside of us through the Holy Spirit, but laying an incorrect foundation based off of not faith that it alive, CHrist in us, but by us trying to impress God on our own.

It is the dead works.

It says NOT LAYING AGAIN....

The Foundation of Repentance.

The foundation of a person's repentance is when they first accept Jesus and they seek forgiveness with him for the first time.

Jesus is our FOUNDATION.

Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works.

Dead works are a part of an unbeliever's life.
If I lay the foundation of repentance (with Jesus) about dead works regarding my past life before I accepted Christ, I am coming to Christ for the first time.

During the early church, the Jews were doing dead works.
They would repent of of these dead works when they first came to Jesus.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus would know that but it is over a long period of time and much rebellion. He is very patient but in the end, if the once believer refuses to come, then God lets him go. What else is He to do? The once believer does not want God or his home anymore.

What scripture says that though? I'm not going to put words in God's mouth, so I need the scripture that says that.

 

[Oldmantook]

Of course it's in the present tense because if you could do it you would be doing it at that momet. The tense there is obviously irrelevant.

It is impossible to renew them to repentance since/BECAUSE they are still rebelling by crucifying/shaming Christ. One cannot repent and keep purposely sinning. Yes of No?
If they stopped crucifying/shaming Christ and genuinely repented of their sin and sought God's forgiveness for their actions, would they be forgiven? Yes or No?
Quite simple questions for you.