Universalism and Grace

[Saint Steven]

Exactly. Anyone saying they would prefer hell would no more be in their right mind and therefore acting freely than someone who runs into a bonfire. Human law recognises the concept of "being of sound mind" and I'm sure God is capable of doing so too.

Even sinful humans show compassion to such individuals. We will even put someone in a straight-jacket in a padded cell to protect them from themselves. Would God toss that person into a furnace? Thus allowing their "free-will" to reign over their destiny.

Do you call it a "straight-jacket" on the other side of the pond? A white canvas jacket with long sleeves that fasten securely in the back.

 

[Hmm]

Do you call it a "straight-jacket" on the other side of the pond?

Yes, we call them a straight-jacket too. Not sure why though!

 

[All Becomes New]

Will you go the next step and claim that God will torture for all eternity most/some of those who whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord?

I'm agnostic between ECT and Conditionalism. But yes, I do believe that some people will go to hell or be destroyed based on what they did with Jesus on earth.

As far as "whole-heartedly and without reservation" this is not something that is said in the text and other lexicons leave out that detail that has already been covered in this discussion.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm agnostic between ECT and Conditionalism. But yes, I do believe that some people will go to hell or be destroyed based on what they did with Jesus on earth.

As far as "whole-heartedly and without reservation" this is not something that is said in the text and other lexicons leave out that detail that has already been covered in this discussion.

That boils down to a forced confession before being incinerated. Even sinful humans know better than that. Does God hold himself to a lower standard than he holds us? (nope)

Jesus taught us that godly behavior is to love our enemies.

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, we call them a straight-jacket too. Not sure why though!

The correct spelling this side is "strait-Jacket." "Strait"/struggle."

 

[Hmm]

The correct spelling this side is "strait-Jacket." "Strait"/struggle."

Ah, I just checked and it is here too. I could only think that a straight jacket made you look like a straight line with no visible arms, but it makes sense now! Thanks.

 

[bling]

Although clearly, this hinges on what you mean by a "hellish" experience, whether that's correction with an end goal in sight or purposeless eternal torture.

Nothing is hinging on the degree of severity of the punishment awaiting the person who refuses and will continue to refuse of their own free will God’s help/Love/charity/forgiveness as charity. The end is annihilation for them, for they would never be happy in heaven.

So we don't know then and we have to guess. A two-tier heaven makes no sense to me, sorry.

Our “guess” is not anyone’s guess, but the conclusion from people who know God. They clearly did not have the opportunity to complete the earthly objective.

As far as there being “tiers” in heaven, we are not the same as angels.

You keep saying this but, again, this is not what universalism says. No one is forced to love God against their will, which is impossible anyway. Universalism merely says that we will naturally love God when we see Him for as He truly is because that's how we're created to be. It's our nature as children of God.

I'm happy to discuss universalism with you but you have to take into account what people are trying to tell you it means, otherwise we're only going to keep on talking about strawman arguments.

I am talking about a Godly type of Love and you are talking about a “natural love”, there is nothing “natural” or even logical about Godly type Love.

Godly type Love is unselfish, unconditional, sacrificial, thought-out, and a choice type Love. Selfishness is natural (you Love to get something). This Love is way beyond learning, developing, deserving or paying back for getting it, so it has to be a purely charitable gift, yet it will have to also be humbly accepted as a charitable gift by the person of their own free will wanting this Love (not again forced on them). The only way to for humans to thus obtain this gift is by the means Christ described in Luke 7: He who is forgiven much Loves much, so if a person accepts God’s forgiveness for an unbelievable huge debt that person will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

 

[bling]

The claim that anyone would be miserable in heaven seems preposterous.

You know the prodigal son parable (Luke15): If the older son after the father makes a wonderful plea for the older son to join the party, if he still refused to join the party what more could the father do or say to make this son happy to go to the party?
What more could you say or do for those who refused to go to the banquet so they would be happy to go to the banquet?
Heaven is some ways is like one huge Love feast, but the only Love there is unselfish Love and lots of people do not like or want for themselves unselfish Love.

 

[Saint Steven]

Nothing is hinging on the degree of severity of the punishment awaiting the person who refuses and will continue to refuse of their own free will God’s help/Love/charity/forgiveness as charity. The end is annihilation for them, for they would never be happy in heaven.

That's a HUGE assumption.
Do you honestly think that a person who meets God in the afterlife and is exposed to absolute love would resist it?
Put yourself in their shoes.

 

[bling]

That's a HUGE assumption.
Do you honestly think that a person who meets God in the afterlife and is exposed to absolute love would resist it?
Put yourself in their shoes.

In the parable of the prodigal son, how well would the older son have known the father? People like the "older son" do not want to have any part in unselfish Love, it might be OK from a distance, but do not ask them to participate in it. Christ was God here on earth, was the problem with the Pharisees not getting to know Christ or not liking Christ. They knew enough about Christ to not like Him and to get to know more would only be more of what they did not like, which could be in the next life.
These Pharisees met Christ in this life, while they could still make an autonomous free will choice with likely alternatives to reject Him, so in the next life what are the other likely alternatives?

 

[Hmm]

so if a person accepts God’s forgiveness for an unbelievable huge debt that person will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

This is probably the chief cause of our very different views. I don't believe that we owe "an unbelievable huge debt" to God because I don't believe in the notion of Orginal Sin, preferring the Orthodox idea of Ancestral Sin instead.

The main difference is that Original Sin views sin as a debt and crime against God. God essentially requires satisfaction both for the guilt of the crime and for the debt we owe Him in payment. This has never made sense to me and I believe it's largely an invention of Augustine.

Ancestral sin OTOH views sin as "missing the mark" or failing to live the life God wants us to live. So, our goal is not to miss the mark again and salvation means achieving "theosis", becoming more Godly in the way we live our lives. It's not legalistic and about crime and punishment the way Original Sin is. Rather than having to pay of some kind of debt by faith (how does that work?), our behaviour has to change and we must reorient ourselves toward God. This makes much more sense to me.

Because our premises are so fundamentally different, so are our conclusions and we're going to have to agree to disagree! I find your view interesting and logical, given your premises, though.

 

[Saint Steven]

Christ was God here on earth, was the problem with the Pharisees not getting to know Christ or not liking Christ.

He was very critical of them. Calling them "a brood of vipers", "whitewashed tombs", and such.
On the other hand he was a friend of sinners and tax collectors. (traitors)
The sinners knew Christ, the Pharisees didn't. IMHO

They knew enough about Christ to not like Him and to get to know more would only be more of what they did not like, which could be in the next life.

The Pharisees pushed Christ to reveal himself. His responses left doubts. The Pharisees and Experts in the Law were divided or him. (John 9:16)

These Pharisees met Christ in this life, while they could still make an autonomous free will choice with likely alternatives to reject Him, so in the next life what are the other likely alternatives?

I think we make WAY too much of the choice and free-will aspects. As if this short life here is all there is "to choose our eternal destiny."

What choice did an aborted child make? Or a person that had a whole life of mental incapability. You'll likely make exceptions for them and others. But that upsets the whole apple cart. The standard is destroyed when the rubber meets the road.

The Apostle John knew Christ VERY personally. Here's what he has to say.

1 John 3:2 NIV
... But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Neogaia777]

Anytime anyone wants to know The Truth to all of this, I am right here, waiting...

No one has gotten it right so far...

So many threads on this, I'm not going to be posting repeatedly in every single one...

My time is very valuable to me, so if you truly want to know, then ask, ok... And ask right here, and right now, ok...

God Bless!

 

[Hmm]

Anytime anyone wants The Truth to all of this, I am right here, waiting...

Go on, I'll bite... what's The Truth?

Supplementary question: why has "The" got a capital "T"?

No one has gotten it right so far...

We gave it our best but it's now time to gracefully give in. Please put us out of our misery...

So many threads on this, I'm not going to be posting repeatedly in every single one...

Oh, go on. Don't be a spoilsport.

 

[Saint Steven]

We gave it our best but time to give in. Put us out of our misery...

LOL

1 Corinthians 15:19 KJV
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

 

[Hmm]

LOL

I'm excited by this awesome prospect.

"Never again," cried the man, "never again will we wake up in the morning and think Who am I? What is my purpose in life? Does it really, cosmically speaking, matter if I don't get up and go to work? For today we will finally learn once and for all the plain and simple answer to all these nagging little problems of Life, the Universe and Everything!"

- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

 

[Neogaia777]

Go on, I'll bite... what's The Truth?

Supplementary question: why has "The" got a capital "T"?



We gave it our best but it's now time to gracefully give in. Please put us out of our misery...



Oh, go on. Don't be a spoilsport.

The Truth, is capitalized, because it's The Truth, etc, but The Truth about this subject is, first off, that there is a Hell that exists, but that the language describing what it is, or surrounding what it feels like for people that are forever there eternally forever (which is also true, etc) is metaphorical/symbolic, because it is being and staying here, and never ever getting to ever go beyond it/that/this here, forever, etc...

There is no such thing a free will technically, etc, and people don't not ever go beyond just getting only more of this here only, etc, "forever", etc, because they were bad or evil or exceedingly sinful people necessarily, etc, but just only because they were just not ever made or meant for anything more than just only getting only just more of this here, etc, and that is "forever" (into the future) for them, etc, just as it has been "from forever" for them (or from forever reaching into the infinite past in the other infinite amount of creations that were prior to this), etc...

The purpose of these ones is only to forever be a causal factor or force in or for others that do always get to go beyond this here, but other than that, have no other further purpose ever other than that or this, etc, and these (both of these groups) are perpetual (or eternal) in creations that were both prior to this, and also of those that will forever be or come after this, etc...

God is the only One truly ever doing or choosing in any of this, etc...

I will stop here for now and await further questions if I get any, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Hmm]

The Truth, is capitalized, because it's The Truth, etc, but The Truth about this subject is, first off, that there is a Hell that exists, but that the language describing what it is, or surrounding what it feels like for people that are forever there eternally forever (which is also true, etc) is metaphorical/symbolic, because it is being and staying here, and never ever getting to ever go beyond it/that/this here, forever, etc...

There is no such thing a free will technically, etc, and people don't not ever go beyond just getting only more of this here only, etc, "forever", etc, because they were bad or evil or exceedingly sinful people necessarily, etc, but just only because they were just not ever made or meant for anything more than just only getting only just more of this here, etc, and that is "forever" (into the future) for them, etc, just as it has been "from forever" for them (or from forever reaching into the infinite past in the other infinite amount of creations that were prior to this), etc...

The purpose of these ones is only to forever be a causal factor or force in or for others that do always get to go beyond this here, but other than that, have no other further purpose ever other than that or this, etc, and these (both of these groups) are perpetual (or eternal) in creations that were both prior to this, and also of those that will forever be or come after this, etc...

God is the only One truly ever doing or choosing in any of this, etc...

I will stop here for now and await further questions if I get any, etc...

God Bless!

That makes so much sense. I can see why now you feel entitled to go around lecturing other people on their faith.

I'd still suggest focusing on your own though and getting that right before criticising other's faiths. There are a lot of hurt people in this fallen world and, remember, you are not exempt.

 

[Neogaia777]

That makes so much sense. I can see why now you feel entitled to go around lecturing other people on their faith.

I'd still suggest focusing on your own though and getting that right before criticising other's faiths.

Oh, ouch! I wonder what triggered that kind of response?

Anyway, no matter, I think I already know, etc...

Just know that I don't feel "entitled" to or about anything, and I'm not trying to "lecture" anybody, and I don't personally recall "criticizing" anyone, and I'm actually about to retire from this on here for the most part for a little while, as I pretty much have moved away from it a lot for the most part already, etc...

Anyway, have a blessed day/life.

Oh, and, P.S., I'm still available for questions right now for the time being, but probably not for very much longer right now today, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Hmm]

P.S., I'm still available for questions right now for the time being, but probably not for very much longer right now today

The standard January Sales deal.