Universalism and Grace

[Wayne Gabler]

I suppose if someone jams enough vss. together they can make the Bible say almost anything.
Jesus did NOT say all flesh would be saved. He said "all flesh" will see the salvation of God.. If Jesus was speaking Hebrew this vs. has a double entendre. In Hebrew the salvation of God is "Yeshua." "All flesh will see the Yeshua of God.
Matt 7:21-23 happens "in that day" i.e. Judgement Day.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

FYI No other vs. cancels Matt 7:21-23.

Almost everybody, maybe your skills will improve in the coming years.

 

[Neogaia777]

Ok, in a way the universalists are half-way right maybe, in that Hades, is temporary, and I believe it is also maybe sometimes maybe to get the people there to repent, and be converted by it's work there sometimes also, etc, but at the very last and final judgment, there is a place called "Gehenna", when all who did not repent up to that time, whereever they were or are, etc, are sent there to be there permanently for an eternity after that time...

I believe that Hades, and Abraham's Bosom, are both temporary places still locked into time, but that are emptied out from time to time, once was when Jesus came to us inthe flesh, and will be again when He returns, and then will one more final and last time, after the end of the Era of Christ's Kingdom here on Earth, when the very final and last one happens, or very last and final Judgement happens finally at that time.

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Ok, in a way the universalists are half-way right maybe, in that Hades, is temporary, and I believe it is also maybe sometimes maybe to get the people there to repent, and be converted by it's work there sometimes also, etc, but at the very last and final judgment, there is a place called "Gehenna", when all who did not repent up to that time, whereever they were or are, etc, are sent there to be there permanently for an eternity after that time...

I believe that Hades, and Abraham's Bosom, are both temporary places still locked into time, but that are emptied out from time to time, once was when Jesus came to us inthe flesh, and will be again when He returns, and then will one more final and last time, after the end of the Era of Christ's Kingdom here on Earth, when the very final and last one happens, or very last and final Judgement happens finally at that time.

God Bless!

Not all go to Hades, or even Abraham's Bosom even maybe, but some might "sleep" for time maybe, etc, I think it is only those souls whose fate might still be as of yet undecided, or that might still possibly be in jeopardy, that go there, or go to Hades temporarily for a time, etc...

And likewise Abraham's Bosom, is only for those who's fate was almost already certainly decided, and to whom God wanted to give the reward of going there, even if it is only going to be temporary before getting to go on to Heaven, etc, anyway, that's who gets to go there to spend time there for a time, etc...

But both are also emptied out twice, before the third and very final last time, or very last and final Judgement, in or at the very end of this entire Creation, and/or "all things", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Not all go to Hades, or even Abraham's Bosom even maybe, but some might "sleep" for time maybe, etc, I think it is only those souls whose fate might still be as of yet undecided, or that might still possibly be in jeopardy, that go there, or go to Hades temporarily for a time, etc...

And likewise Abraham's Bosom, is only for those who's fate was almost already certainly decided, and to whom God wanted to give the reward of going there, even if it is only going to be temporary before getting to go on to Heaven, etc, anyway, that's who gets to go there to spend time there for a time, etc...

But both are also emptied out twice, before the third and very final last time, or very last and final Judgement, in or at the very end of this entire Creation, and/or "all things", etc...

God Bless!

Some say that Sheol, might be the place of the sleeping dead, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Der Alte]

Almost everybody, maybe your skills will improve in the coming years.

Is this supposed to make some kind of sense?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Is this supposed to make some kind of sense?

I don't jam verses together, I put them together after a fair amount of study. You assessment is an insult. Go fix your own flaws before you take on what you think my flaws are.
Is that clearer?

M't:7:5:
Thou hypocrite,
first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't jam verses together, I put them together after a fair amount of study. You assessment is an insult. Go fix your own flaws before you take on what you think my flaws are.
Is that clearer?

M't:7:5:
Thou hypocrite,
first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Take your own advice. "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;" How did the former pagans in Italy, Greece, Asia[modern Turkey], Egypt,Babylon etc. understand the N.T. ? They didn't have access to the O.T. they would have understood the N.T. in its most natural meaning.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

The OT is part of the Bible, of course they had access to it. They also knew how it meshed together.
I don't see any value in replying to your posts, this is my last comment.

 

[Der Alte]

The OT is part of the Bible, of course they had access to it. They also knew how it meshed together.
I don't see any value in replying to your posts, this is my last comment.

No problem, that will not deter me from addressing posts which are in error. I say that the majority of N.T. Christians dd not have access to the O.T. and most of them could not afford to buy copies of the church letters. Remember everything in the N.T. was all hand copied and would take many hours to complete. And the scribes did not work hours and hours copying manuscripts to give them away free.
As for former pagan N.T. Christians not having access to the O,T. Here from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

Simon ben Yoḥai is preeminently the anti-Gentile teacher. In a collection of three sayings of his, beginning with the keyword

(Yer. Ḳid. 66c; Massek. Soferim xv. 10; Mek., Beshal-laḥ, 27a; Tan., Wayera, ed. Buber, 20), is found the expression, often quoted by anti-Semites, "Ṭob shebe-goyyim harog" (="The best among the Gentiles deserves to be killed").
Gentiles May Not Be Taught the Torah.
Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death"
Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b).
Resh Laḳish's law, and, commenting upon it, added: "not even on Mondays [is the Gentile allowed to rest]"; intimating that the mandate given to the Noachidæ that "day and night shall not cease" (

="have no rest ") should be taken in a literal sense (Gen. viii. 22)—probably to discourage general idleness (ib. Rashi),​

​

TYRE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You buy into the same error many uninformed folks do. Strong's is NOT a lexicon, it is a concordance, it does NOT define words, it only lists the translations found in the KJV. Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions.
If you want informed translation of the Hebrew, which I doubt, may I suggest the 1917 Jewish Publication Society JPS translation which is available free online. If you do, be advised, they translate olam and ad
עד עולם as for ever. more than 300 times.

Tanach (JPS): The Law | Sacred Texts Archive

Read Tanach (JPS): The Law | Sacred Texts Archive - Complete Biblical texts including multiple translations, apocrypha, and scholarly commentaries.

www.sacred-texts.com

Here for you one vs. in the O.T. which very clearly defines olam as eternal.

Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever; [olam] nothing can be added to it, nor any thing taken from it; and God hath so made it, that men should fear before Him. ​

Ecc 3:14 ​

ידעתי כי כל־אשׁר יעשׂה האלהים הוא יהיה לעולם עליו אין להוסיף וממנו אין לגרע והאלהים עשׂה שׁיראו מלפניו׃ ​

​

How does it make the verse false if you read the verse using olam as pertaining to the age not eternal? If you translated it whatever God does he does it unto the age nothing added to it nor anything taken away. Is this not true or is it only true if you think it’s eternal?

 

[Der Alte]

How does it make the verse false if you read the verse using olam as pertaining to the age not eternal? If you translated it whatever God does he does it unto the age nothing added to it nor anything taken away. Is this not true or is it only true if you think it’s eternal?

Does "age" mean the same thing as "eternal"? Correct me if I'm wrong here, "eternal" is an adjective and "age" is a noun, right?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Does "age" mean the same thing as "eternal"? Correct me if I'm wrong here, "eternal" is an adjective and "age" is a noun, right?

So Jonah was eternally in the fish? The old covenant priesthood is forever? The mountains are forever? Olam does not always mean forever or eternal . You know it , but I understand that anything that threatens ETC must be stopped because your whole house is built on that foundation.

 

[Der Alte]

So Jonah was eternally in the fish? The old covenant priesthood is forever? The mountains are forever? Olam does not always mean forever or eternal . You know it , but I understand that anything that threatens ETC must be stopped because your whole house is built on that foundation.

Do you really think that one or two isolated examples determines the meaning of a word? Are you familiar with the term "figurative language?" If "olam"/"aionios" ever means "eternal" it always means "eternal," any other usage is figurative.
See e.g. Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. James and John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus named them that. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus named him, Petros which means stone. Figurative.
Therefore, Olam always means "eternal" which OBTW is how it is translated in the 1906 Jewish Publication Society translation of the O.T. 300+ times. Any other usage is figurative. I think they are more knowledgeable on this than you are. Link to JPS online.

Online Bible

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Do you really think that one or two isolated examples determines the meaning of a word? Are you familiar with the term "figurative language?" If "olam"/"aionios" ever means "eternal" it always means "eternal," any other usage is figurative.
See e.g. Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. James and John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus named them that. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus named him, Petros which means stone. Figurative.
Therefore, Olam always means "eternal" which OBTW is how it is translated in the 1906 Jewish Publication Society translation of the O.T. 300+ times. Any other usage is figurative. I think they are more knowledgeable on this than you are. Link to JPS online.

Online Bible

It’s not figurative language it’s the proper use of the word . Olam is a undetermined amount of time may be short may be long that is why it is used in so many different ways. If it had to mean eternal it would not make sense that Jonah was in the fish forever. So to make it fit your box you have to say it’s figurative or your whole argument goes out the window. So it seems that your standard is if it goes against your foundation it’s figurative and it supports you foundation it’s not figurative. So I can ask you show the scripture that says it’s figurative or at least admit that it’s just your opinion

 

[Der Alte]

It’s not figurative language it’s the proper use of the word . Olam is a undetermined amount of time may be short may be long that is why it is used in so many different ways. If it had to mean eternal it would not make sense that Jonah was in the fish forever. So to make it fit your box you have to say it’s figurative or your whole argument goes out the window. So it seems that your standard is if it goes against your foundation it’s figurative and it supports you foundation it’s not figurative. So I can ask you show the scripture that says it’s figurative or at least admit that it’s just your opinion

Unlike most folks I don't post my unsupported opinion. Present company not excluded. I don't admit to other's mistakes.
"Olam" is translated "for ever" 300+ times in the 1906 Jewish Publication Society OT
Link: Online Bible

עוֹלָם S5769, 5865 TWOT1631a GK6409, 6518439 n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity;—ע׳ Gn 9:12 + 405 times; עֹלָם 3:22 + 19 times; עֵילוֹם 2 Ch 33:7, read prob. עוֹלָם (for other explan. v. note in Kit); sf. עֹלָמוֹ Ec 12:5; pl. עוֹלָמִים Is 26:4 + 7 times, עֹלָמִים ψ 145:13 + 2 times; cstr. עוֹלְמֵי Is 45:17;—† 1. of past time: a. ancient time: יְמֵי ע׳ days of old Is 63:9, 11 Am 9:11 Mi 5:1; 7:14 Mal 3:4; יְמוֹת ע׳ Dt 32:7; עַם ע׳ Is 44:7 ancient people; גּוֹי מֵע׳ Je 5:15; חָרְבוֹת ע׳ old waste places Is 58:12 61:4, cf. Ez 26:20 b; פִּתְחֵי ע׳ ancient gates ψ 24:7, 9; ארח ע׳ Jb 22:15; נתבות ע׳ Je 6:16; שְׁבִילֵי ע׳ 18:15; גבול ע׳ Pr 22:28; 23:10; במות ע׳ Ez 36:2; מִן (םֵ)ע׳ from of old Is 64:3 Je 2:20 Jo 2:2, of the fathers Jos 24:2, the prophets Je 28:8, the ancient נפלים Gn 6:4; (Ez 32:27 Co for מערלים; but 1 S 27:8 read מִטֵּלָם for מעולם We Dr HPS); בהם ע׳ long in them Is 64:4 (text dub.). b. מֵתֵי ע׳ the long dead ψ 143:3 La 3:6; so עַם ע׳ Ez 26:20. c. of God, מֵע׳: former acts Is 46:9; as redeemer Is 63:16; of love ψ 25:6, judgment 119:52, dominion Is 63:19; long silence 42:14; 57:11*; his wisdom personif. Pr 8:23; his existence ψ 93:2. d. of things: גבעות ע׳ ancient hills Gn 49:26 (J), Hb 3:6 (|| הררי־עד), Dt 33:15 (|| הררי קדם). e. pl. שְׁנוֹת עולמים ψ 77:6 years of ancient times; דורות עולמים Is 51:9; לעלמים Ec 1:10 in olden times. 2. a. indef. futurity, c. prep. for ever, always (sometimes = during the lifetime); עֶבֶד עולם slave for ever Dt 15:17; 1 S 27:12; Jb 40:28; עָבַד לע׳ serve for ever Ex 21:6 (E), Lv 25:46; עד ע׳ 1 S 1:22; גְּאֻלַּת ע׳ Lv 25:32 redemption at any time; הֲרַת ע׳ Je 20:17 ever pregnant (womb); כְּלִמַּת ע׳ v 11 of persecutors of Jeremiah; חרפת ע׳ 23:40; שַׁלְוֵי ע׳ ψ 73:12 alway at ease; יְחִי לע׳ (יחיה) may the king live always 1 K 1:31; Ne 2:3; cf. אֹרֶךְ יָמִים עולם ועד ψ 21:5; ישׁב עולם לפני אלהים 61:8; so of the pious, לע׳ לא ימוט 15:5; בל ימוט Pr 10:30, cf. ψ 30:7; other phr.: ψ 37:27, 28 41:13; 55:23; 61:8; 73:26; 121:8 Pr 10:25; ע׳ אשׁירה ψ 89:2 I will sing for ever (as long as I live), cf. 52:10; 115:18; 145:1, 2; הוֹדה לע׳ 30:13; 44:9; 52:11; 79:13; other emotions and activities continuous through life 5:12; 31:2 = 71:1, 75:10; 86:12; 119:44, 93, 98, 111, 112 Mi 4:5, cf. לע׳ 2:9. b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth, הָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמֶדֶת Ec 1:4; other phr.: ψ 78:69; 104:5, heavens and contents 148:6, ruined cities Is 25:2; 32:14 Ez 26:21; 27:36; 28:19, ruined lands Je 18:16; 25:9, 12; 49:13, 33; 51:26, 62 Ez 35:9 Zp 2:9; לעד עד ע׳ Is 30:8 for a witness for ever, in a book; (2) of nations: לעולם אהיה 47:7 (Babylon loqu.), cf. ψ 81:16 Ob 10; ישׁב לע׳ of Judah Jo 4:20; (3) families ψ 49:12 Is 14:20; the dynasty of Saul 1 S 13:13; house of Eli 2:30; (4) national relations: איבת ע׳ continual enmity Ez 25:15; 35:5; of exclusion from קהל י׳, עד ע׳ Dt 23:4 = Ne 13:1; various relations Is 32:17; 34:10; חרפת ע׳ perpetual reproach ψ 78:66, of dynasty of David 2 S 3:28; 12:10 1 K 2:33, families v 33 2 K 5:27 ψ 106:31 Je 35:6. c. of divine existence: אל עולם Gn 21:33 (J); אלהי ע׳ Is 40:28; חי אנכי לע׳ Dt 32:40; חֵי הע׳ Dn 12:7; of divine name, זה שׁמי לְע׳ Ex 3:15 (E), cf. 2 Ch 33:7 (v. supr.); blessing and praise of it 2 S 7:26 = 1 Ch 17:24, ψ 72:19; 135:13; of י׳ himself 89:53; attributes, אהבה Je 31:3 1 K 10:9; חסד Is 54:8 ψ 89:2; 138:8; לע׳ חַסְדּוֹ 1 Ch 16:34, 41 2 Ch 5:13; 7:3, 6; 20:21 Ezr 3:11 ψ 100:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 2, 3, 4, 29; 136:1 + 25 times, Je 33:11; כבוד ψ 104:31; אמת 117:2; 146:6; צדק 119:142; עצה 33:11; reign Ex 15:18 (E), ψ 10:16; 66:7; 92:9; 146:10 Je 10:10 Mi 4:7; יהוה לע׳ ישׁב ψ 9:8; 29:10; 102:13 La 5:19; presence in Zion 1 Ch 23:25; Is 33:14; 60:19, 20 Ez 37:28; 43:7, 9; his salvation Is 51:6, 8; זרעת ע׳ Dt 33:27 everlasting arms; כל אשׁר יעשׂה האלהים יהיה לע׳ Ec 3:14. d. of God’s covenant: בְּרִית ע׳ everlasting covenant Gn 9:16; 17:7, 13, 19 Ex 31:16 Lv 24:8 Nu 18:19 (all P), 2 S 23:5; 1 Ch 16:17 = ψ 105:10, Is 24:5; 55:3; 61:8 Je 32:40; 50:5; Ez 16:60; 37:26; covenant with Noah, לְדֹרֹת ע׳ Gn 9:12 (P); God remembers it 1 Ch 16:15 = ψ 105:8, ψ 111:5; will not break it, לע׳ Ju 2:1; אוֹת ע׳ Ex 31:17 (P); אוֹת עד ע׳ Dt 28:46. e. of God’s laws: דבר(ים) Is 59:21 ψ 119:89; משׁפט 119:160; עדות v 144, 152; חק ע׳ Ex 29:28; 30:21 (E), Lv 6:11, 15; 7:34; 10:15; 24:9 Nu 18:8, 11, 19 (P), also Je 5:22 (of bounds of sea); חק עד ע׳ Ex 12:24 (J), חֻקַּת ע׳ v 14, 17; 27:21; 28:43; 29:9 Lv 3:17; 7:36; 10:9; 16:29, 31, 34; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 31, 41; 24:3, 8; Nu 10:8; 15:15; 18:23; 19:10, 21 (P) (most of these in fact specif. Jewish and temporary); temple to bear God’s name, עד ע׳ 1 K 9:3 = 2 Ch 7:16; לע׳ 2 K 21:7 2 Ch 33:4; consecrated לע׳ 30:8; its ceremonies לע׳ 2:3; Levit. priesthood, לשׁרתו עד ע׳ 1 Ch 15:2; Aaronic priesthood, לברך בשׁמי עד ע׳ 23:13(). f. of God’s promises: his word, יקום לע׳ Is 40:8; promised dynasty of David, עד (ה)ע׳ 2 S 7:13, 16(), 25 = 1 Ch 17:12, 14(), 23 ψ 18:51 = 2 S 22:51; 1 K 2:33, 45 1 Ch 22:10 ψ 89:5; לע׳ 1 K 9:5; 1 Ch 28:4, 7; 2 Ch 13:5 ψ 89:29, 37 2 S 7:29() = 1 Ch 17:27(); of holy land 1 Ch 28:8, אֲחֻזַּת ע׳ Gn 17:8; 48:4 Lv 25:34 (P); given לע׳ Ex 32:13 (J) 2 Ch 20:7; עד ע׳ Gn 13:15, inherited לע׳ Is 60:21 ψ 37:18; עד ע׳ Is 34:17; dwelt in עד ע׳ Ez 37:25; other blessings, לע׳ Dt 5:29 Ho 2:21; עד ע׳ Dt 12:28; 2 S 7:24 = 1 Ch 17:22, ψ 133:3; שִׂמְחַת ע׳ Is 35:10; 51:11; 61:7; דֶּרֶךְ ע׳ ψ 139:24; שׁם ע׳ Is 56:5; 63:12; אות ע׳ 55:13; גאון ע׳ 60:15; Jerus. to abide לע׳ Je 17:25 ψ 125:1, cf. Je 31:40; עד ע׳ ψ 48:9. g. of relations between God and his people, לע׳ 1 Ch 29:18 ψ 45:18; 85:6; 103:9; 145:21; Is 57:16; Je 3:5, 12; La 3:31; Jo 2:26, 27; עד (ה)ע׳ ψ 28:9 Mal 1:4. h. of Messianic dynasty and king: (ל)ע׳ ψ 110:4; having divine throne 45:7; name endures 72:17; established 89:38; God blesses him 45:3; of his reign, מעתה ועד ע׳ Is 9:6. i. = indefinite, unending future: live לע׳ Gn 3:22; Jb 7:16; הנביאים הלע׳ יִחְיוּ Zc 1:5 the prophets, can they live for ever? cf. חדל לע׳ ψ 49:9; c. neg. never Ezr 9:12; Pr 27:24. j. after death: שׁנת ע׳ Je 51:39, 57; בית ע׳ Ec 12:5; חַיֵּי ע׳ Dn 12:2; דראון ע׳ v 2; also v 3 Jon 2:7; Ec 2:16; 9:6. k. = age (duration) of the world: את העלם נתן בְּלִבָּם Ec 3:11 the age of the world he hath set, etc. (cf. especially NH; others i). 1. pl. intens. everlastingness, eternity: תשׁועת עולמים Is 45:17; צדק עלמים Dn 9:24; צור עולמים Is 26:4 (RVm rock of ages); מלכוּת כל עלמים ψ 145:13; also 61:5; 77:8; 1 K 8:13 = 2 Ch 6:2. m. special phr.: מ(ה)עולם (ו)עד (ה)עולם (מן) from everlasting to everlasting, of י׳ ψ 90:2, חסד י׳ 103:17; benedictions 1 Ch 16:36 = ψ 106:48, Ne 9:5; 1 Ch 29:10 ψ 41:14; the land given למן עולם ועד עולם Je 7:7; 25:5; מעתה ועד עולם from now and for ever ψ 115:18; 121:8 (i.e. as long as one lives); of people’s hope in God 131:3; dynasty of David Is 9:6; of God’s acts, words, etc. Mi 4:7; Is 59:21 ψ 125:2, cf. 113:2;—v. further I. עַד p. 723.
Francis Brown, Samuel Rolles Driver, and Charles Augustus Briggs, Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1977), 761–763.​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Unlike most folks I don't post my unsupported opinion. Present company not excluded. I don't admit to other's mistakes.
"Olam" is translated "for ever" 300+ times in the 1906 Jewish Publication Society OT
Link: Online Bible

עוֹלָם S5769, 5865 TWOT1631a GK6409, 6518439 n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity;—ע׳ Gn 9:12 + 405 times; עֹלָם 3:22 + 19 times; עֵילוֹם 2 Ch 33:7, read prob. עוֹלָם (for other explan. v. note in Kit); sf. עֹלָמוֹ Ec 12:5; pl. עוֹלָמִים Is 26:4 + 7 times, עֹלָמִים ψ 145:13 + 2 times; cstr. עוֹלְמֵי Is 45:17;—† 1. of past time: a. ancient time: יְמֵי ע׳ days of old Is 63:9, 11 Am 9:11 Mi 5:1; 7:14 Mal 3:4; יְמוֹת ע׳ Dt 32:7; עַם ע׳ Is 44:7 ancient people; גּוֹי מֵע׳ Je 5:15; חָרְבוֹת ע׳ old waste places Is 58:12 61:4, cf. Ez 26:20 b; פִּתְחֵי ע׳ ancient gates ψ 24:7, 9; ארח ע׳ Jb 22:15; נתבות ע׳ Je 6:16; שְׁבִילֵי ע׳ 18:15; גבול ע׳ Pr 22:28; 23:10; במות ע׳ Ez 36:2; מִן (םֵ)ע׳ from of old Is 64:3 Je 2:20 Jo 2:2, of the fathers Jos 24:2, the prophets Je 28:8, the ancient נפלים Gn 6:4; (Ez 32:27 Co for מערלים; but 1 S 27:8 read מִטֵּלָם for מעולם We Dr HPS); בהם ע׳ long in them Is 64:4 (text dub.). b. מֵתֵי ע׳ the long dead ψ 143:3 La 3:6; so עַם ע׳ Ez 26:20. c. of God, מֵע׳: former acts Is 46:9; as redeemer Is 63:16; of love ψ 25:6, judgment 119:52, dominion Is 63:19; long silence 42:14; 57:11*; his wisdom personif. Pr 8:23; his existence ψ 93:2. d. of things: גבעות ע׳ ancient hills Gn 49:26 (J), Hb 3:6 (|| הררי־עד), Dt 33:15 (|| הררי קדם). e. pl. שְׁנוֹת עולמים ψ 77:6 years of ancient times; דורות עולמים Is 51:9; לעלמים Ec 1:10 in olden times. 2. a. indef. futurity, c. prep. for ever, always (sometimes = during the lifetime); עֶבֶד עולם slave for ever Dt 15:17; 1 S 27:12; Jb 40:28; עָבַד לע׳ serve for ever Ex 21:6 (E), Lv 25:46; עד ע׳ 1 S 1:22; גְּאֻלַּת ע׳ Lv 25:32 redemption at any time; הֲרַת ע׳ Je 20:17 ever pregnant (womb); כְּלִמַּת ע׳ v 11 of persecutors of Jeremiah; חרפת ע׳ 23:40; שַׁלְוֵי ע׳ ψ 73:12 alway at ease; יְחִי לע׳ (יחיה) may the king live always 1 K 1:31; Ne 2:3; cf. אֹרֶךְ יָמִים עולם ועד ψ 21:5; ישׁב עולם לפני אלהים 61:8; so of the pious, לע׳ לא ימוט 15:5; בל ימוט Pr 10:30, cf. ψ 30:7; other phr.: ψ 37:27, 28 41:13; 55:23; 61:8; 73:26; 121:8 Pr 10:25; ע׳ אשׁירה ψ 89:2 I will sing for ever (as long as I live), cf. 52:10; 115:18; 145:1, 2; הוֹדה לע׳ 30:13; 44:9; 52:11; 79:13; other emotions and activities continuous through life 5:12; 31:2 = 71:1, 75:10; 86:12; 119:44, 93, 98, 111, 112 Mi 4:5, cf. לע׳ 2:9. b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth, הָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמֶדֶת Ec 1:4; other phr.: ψ 78:69; 104:5, heavens and contents 148:6, ruined cities Is 25:2; 32:14 Ez 26:21; 27:36; 28:19, ruined lands Je 18:16; 25:9, 12; 49:13, 33; 51:26, 62 Ez 35:9 Zp 2:9; לעד עד ע׳ Is 30:8 for a witness for ever, in a book; (2) of nations: לעולם אהיה 47:7 (Babylon loqu.), cf. ψ 81:16 Ob 10; ישׁב לע׳ of Judah Jo 4:20; (3) families ψ 49:12 Is 14:20; the dynasty of Saul 1 S 13:13; house of Eli 2:30; (4) national relations: איבת ע׳ continual enmity Ez 25:15; 35:5; of exclusion from קהל י׳, עד ע׳ Dt 23:4 = Ne 13:1; various relations Is 32:17; 34:10; חרפת ע׳ perpetual reproach ψ 78:66, of dynasty of David 2 S 3:28; 12:10 1 K 2:33, families v 33 2 K 5:27 ψ 106:31 Je 35:6. c. of divine existence: אל עולם Gn 21:33 (J); אלהי ע׳ Is 40:28; חי אנכי לע׳ Dt 32:40; חֵי הע׳ Dn 12:7; of divine name, זה שׁמי לְע׳ Ex 3:15 (E), cf. 2 Ch 33:7 (v. supr.); blessing and praise of it 2 S 7:26 = 1 Ch 17:24, ψ 72:19; 135:13; of י׳ himself 89:53; attributes, אהבה Je 31:3 1 K 10:9; חסד Is 54:8 ψ 89:2; 138:8; לע׳ חַסְדּוֹ 1 Ch 16:34, 41 2 Ch 5:13; 7:3, 6; 20:21 Ezr 3:11 ψ 100:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 2, 3, 4, 29; 136:1 + 25 times, Je 33:11; כבוד ψ 104:31; אמת 117:2; 146:6; צדק 119:142; עצה 33:11; reign Ex 15:18 (E), ψ 10:16; 66:7; 92:9; 146:10 Je 10:10 Mi 4:7; יהוה לע׳ ישׁב ψ 9:8; 29:10; 102:13 La 5:19; presence in Zion 1 Ch 23:25; Is 33:14; 60:19, 20 Ez 37:28; 43:7, 9; his salvation Is 51:6, 8; זרעת ע׳ Dt 33:27 everlasting arms; כל אשׁר יעשׂה האלהים יהיה לע׳ Ec 3:14. d. of God’s covenant: בְּרִית ע׳ everlasting covenant Gn 9:16; 17:7, 13, 19 Ex 31:16 Lv 24:8 Nu 18:19 (all P), 2 S 23:5; 1 Ch 16:17 = ψ 105:10, Is 24:5; 55:3; 61:8 Je 32:40; 50:5; Ez 16:60; 37:26; covenant with Noah, לְדֹרֹת ע׳ Gn 9:12 (P); God remembers it 1 Ch 16:15 = ψ 105:8, ψ 111:5; will not break it, לע׳ Ju 2:1; אוֹת ע׳ Ex 31:17 (P); אוֹת עד ע׳ Dt 28:46. e. of God’s laws: דבר(ים) Is 59:21 ψ 119:89; משׁפט 119:160; עדות v 144, 152; חק ע׳ Ex 29:28; 30:21 (E), Lv 6:11, 15; 7:34; 10:15; 24:9 Nu 18:8, 11, 19 (P), also Je 5:22 (of bounds of sea); חק עד ע׳ Ex 12:24 (J), חֻקַּת ע׳ v 14, 17; 27:21; 28:43; 29:9 Lv 3:17; 7:36; 10:9; 16:29, 31, 34; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 31, 41; 24:3, 8; Nu 10:8; 15:15; 18:23; 19:10, 21 (P) (most of these in fact specif. Jewish and temporary); temple to bear God’s name, עד ע׳ 1 K 9:3 = 2 Ch 7:16; לע׳ 2 K 21:7 2 Ch 33:4; consecrated לע׳ 30:8; its ceremonies לע׳ 2:3; Levit. priesthood, לשׁרתו עד ע׳ 1 Ch 15:2; Aaronic priesthood, לברך בשׁמי עד ע׳ 23:13(). f. of God’s promises: his word, יקום לע׳ Is 40:8; promised dynasty of David, עד (ה)ע׳ 2 S 7:13, 16(), 25 = 1 Ch 17:12, 14(), 23 ψ 18:51 = 2 S 22:51; 1 K 2:33, 45 1 Ch 22:10 ψ 89:5; לע׳ 1 K 9:5; 1 Ch 28:4, 7; 2 Ch 13:5 ψ 89:29, 37 2 S 7:29() = 1 Ch 17:27(); of holy land 1 Ch 28:8, אֲחֻזַּת ע׳ Gn 17:8; 48:4 Lv 25:34 (P); given לע׳ Ex 32:13 (J) 2 Ch 20:7; עד ע׳ Gn 13:15, inherited לע׳ Is 60:21 ψ 37:18; עד ע׳ Is 34:17; dwelt in עד ע׳ Ez 37:25; other blessings, לע׳ Dt 5:29 Ho 2:21; עד ע׳ Dt 12:28; 2 S 7:24 = 1 Ch 17:22, ψ 133:3; שִׂמְחַת ע׳ Is 35:10; 51:11; 61:7; דֶּרֶךְ ע׳ ψ 139:24; שׁם ע׳ Is 56:5; 63:12; אות ע׳ 55:13; גאון ע׳ 60:15; Jerus. to abide לע׳ Je 17:25 ψ 125:1, cf. Je 31:40; עד ע׳ ψ 48:9. g. of relations between God and his people, לע׳ 1 Ch 29:18 ψ 45:18; 85:6; 103:9; 145:21; Is 57:16; Je 3:5, 12; La 3:31; Jo 2:26, 27; עד (ה)ע׳ ψ 28:9 Mal 1:4. h. of Messianic dynasty and king: (ל)ע׳ ψ 110:4; having divine throne 45:7; name endures 72:17; established 89:38; God blesses him 45:3; of his reign, מעתה ועד ע׳ Is 9:6. i. = indefinite, unending future: live לע׳ Gn 3:22; Jb 7:16; הנביאים הלע׳ יִחְיוּ Zc 1:5 the prophets, can they live for ever? cf. חדל לע׳ ψ 49:9; c. neg. never Ezr 9:12; Pr 27:24. j. after death: שׁנת ע׳ Je 51:39, 57; בית ע׳ Ec 12:5; חַיֵּי ע׳ Dn 12:2; דראון ע׳ v 2; also v 3 Jon 2:7; Ec 2:16; 9:6. k. = age (duration) of the world: את העלם נתן בְּלִבָּם Ec 3:11 the age of the world he hath set, etc. (cf. especially NH; others i). 1. pl. intens. everlastingness, eternity: תשׁועת עולמים Is 45:17; צדק עלמים Dn 9:24; צור עולמים Is 26:4 (RVm rock of ages); מלכוּת כל עלמים ψ 145:13; also 61:5; 77:8; 1 K 8:13 = 2 Ch 6:2. m. special phr.: מ(ה)עולם (ו)עד (ה)עולם (מן) from everlasting to everlasting, of י׳ ψ 90:2, חסד י׳ 103:17; benedictions 1 Ch 16:36 = ψ 106:48, Ne 9:5; 1 Ch 29:10 ψ 41:14; the land given למן עולם ועד עולם Je 7:7; 25:5; מעתה ועד עולם from now and for ever ψ 115:18; 121:8 (i.e. as long as one lives); of people’s hope in God 131:3; dynasty of David Is 9:6; of God’s acts, words, etc. Mi 4:7; Is 59:21 ψ 125:2, cf. 113:2;—v. further I. עַד p. 723.​

Francis Brown, Samuel Rolles Driver, and Charles Augustus Briggs, Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1977), 761–763.​

Just because you can copy and paste information out of books over and over again does not make it correct. All the sources are from the Augustine camp and he was a latinist who didn’t like Greek so he used a faulty Latin translation and was powerful enough to put down most of those who were opposing him. So all the sources you drag out start out with a faulty foundation, not to say everything was wrong , but on the definition and use of Olam/Aionios they got it wrong from the Latin. You seem to think that by the sure volume of books that it must be correct. Well I see it like this if I were to talk to a million Muslims and they had many books stating that Jesus was just another profit and not God , would you have to believe them because of the amount of people and books? Of course not , you believe in what the Augustine camp had developed I don’t, I am a pre-Augustine Christian and follow after those who were closest to the beginning of the church. It doesn’t matter how many pages of material you copied, unless they are pre-Augustine They just don’t carry the same weight .

 

[Der Alte]

Just because you can copy and paste information out of books over and over again does not make it correct. All the sources are from the Augustine camp and he was a latinist who didn’t like Greek so he used a faulty Latin translation and was powerful enough to put down most of those who were opposing him. So all the sources you drag out start out with a faulty foundation, not to say everything was wrong , but on the definition and use of Olam/Aionios they got it wrong from the Latin. You seem to think that by the sure volume of books that it must be correct. Well I see it like this if I were to talk to a million Muslims and they had many books stating that Jesus was just another profit and not God , would you have to believe them because of the amount of people and books? Of course not , you believe in what the Augustine camp had developed I don’t, I am a pre-Augustine Christian and follow after those who were closest to the beginning of the church. It doesn’t matter how many pages of material you copied, unless they are pre-Augustine They just don’t carry the same weight .

I do not want to hear that phony Augustine stuff. If Agustine said something relevant quote it. Since you don't, Augustin is irrelevant. Your post is hilarious. Augustine this, latin that, but zero credible, verifiable evidence.
I quoted the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB they translated "aionios" as eternal, they were certainly not influenced by Augustine or Latin anything. I quoted the Jewish Publication Society translation. They translated "olam" as "For ever" 300+ times. They were certainly not influenced by Augustin or Latin anything. If you can't provide an unbiased peer reviewed lexicon produced by UR scholars with some letters after their names you have no basis for criticizing anything I post. I want to see credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence NOT unsupported biased UR opinion. I won't hold my breath.
And I also do not want to read the opinionated writings of any UR "scholar" which does not itself provide credible. verifiable. historical etc. evidence.

 

[HSong]

Thus, the best way to find the truth is to look at it directly. Rather than looking simply at the English translations of the Old Testament and New Testament, we should look at the original meaning of the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek words from the original scriptures in order to get information from the source.

JEREMIAH 32:27, 32, 37, 40 I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me

Academically, it’s like getting information by reading the source, instead of reading information you got from a news article that talked about the source. Because each stage of the transmission process loses information.

JEREMIAH 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

In Photoshop, if I keep resizing a file, it will keep losing its data and eventually, even when I try to resize it back to its original size, it’s noticeably blurrier (That’s why newer versions of Photoshop added a check mark feature for you to confirm whether you want to resize it or not]

JOEL 2:28, 3:21 And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people ... Their bloodguilt which I have not pardoned, I will pardon.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I do not want to hear that phony Augustine stuff. If Agustine said something relevant quote it. Since you don't, Augustin is irrelevant. Your post is hilarious. Augustine this, latin that, but zero credible, verifiable evidence.
I quoted the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB they translated "aionios" as eternal, they were certainly not influenced by Augustine or Latin anything. I quoted the Jewish Publication Society translation. They translated "olam" as "For ever" 300+ times. They were certainly not influenced by Augustin or Latin anything. If you can't provide an unbiased peer reviewed lexicon produced by UR scholars with some letters after their names you have no basis for criticizing anything I post. I want to see credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence NOT unsupported biased UR opinion. I won't hold my breath.
And I also do not want to read the opinionated writings of any UR "scholar" which does not itself provide credible. verifiable. historical etc. evidence.

Thus, the best way to find the truth is to look at it directly. Rather than looking simply at the English translations of the Old Testament and New Testament, we should look at the original meaning of the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek words from the original scriptures in order to get information from the source.

JEREMIAH 32:27, 32, 37, 40 I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me

Academically, it’s like getting information by reading the source, instead of reading information you got from a news article that talked about the source. Because each stage of the transmission process loses information.

JEREMIAH 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

In Photoshop, if I keep resizing a file, it will keep losing its data and eventually, even when I try to resize it back to its original size, it’s noticeably blurrier (That’s why newer versions of Photoshop added a check mark feature for you to confirm whether you want to resize it or not]

JOEL 2:28, 3:21 And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people ... Their bloodguilt which I have not pardoned, I will pardon.

Thus, the best way to find the truth is to look at it directly. Rather than looking simply at the English translations of the Old Testament and New Testament, we should look at the original meaning of the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek words from the original scriptures in order to get information from the source.

JEREMIAH 32:27, 32, 37, 40 I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me

Academically, it’s like getting information by reading the source, instead of reading information you got from a news article that talked about the source. Because each stage of the transmission process loses information.

JEREMIAH 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

In Photoshop, if I keep resizing a file, it will keep losing its data and eventually, even when I try to resize it back to its original size, it’s noticeably blurrier (That’s why newer versions of Photoshop added a check mark feature for you to confirm whether you want to resize it or not]

JOEL 2:28, 3:21 And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people ... Their bloodguilt which I have not pardoned, I will pardon.

Yes it is interesting, I know for me I used to be in the ECT camp and taught it myself, so I understand where they are coming from . I was in the Arminian camp and did a lot of debating against Calvinist camp, I even went through a time when I didn’t believe that the Calvinist were Christian because of the way they describe the God they worship but over time the Holy Spirit convicted me about how everyone has errors myself included and they were just following a faulty translation error. Now I see that I also was guilty of that in my Arminian approach to the Bible. Then I heard a person talking about UR and I thought that will be easy to disprove, so I dug into the material they were talking about and the more I studied the more I found out that I was also in error. This rocked my world but my prayers were Father teach me who you really are not what man has said you are and boy did he do just that. It took about a year of reading and now I have a joy and peace and a Christology bigger than I knew was possible. UR has put so many pieces of this puzzle together for me , my Bible study now has come so alive I see Yahwehs plan for his creation and it’s beautiful, I just want to share it with everyone. It used to be very troubling for me that Yahweh would torture people forever because sin had so clouded there judgement that they could not see or understand a loving God . Why would a loving God who knows what will happen make a world so messed up should not He make it to where you had to work at going against him and not the other way around. But praise Yahweh that he showed me his truth, he has a plan and we are just in the beginning stages of a beautiful story he is doing and down the road it will all be very good. I used to wonder why if Jesus conquered satan on the cross why does satan get the majority of people and Jesus only get a few. Now I know the rest of the story and it makes the whole don’t be part of this world so much easier. I can’t wait to see what Yahweh has in store for us in the ages to come.

 

[Der Alte]

It’s not gossip it’s ideas. I don’t understand why if you can’t chapter and verse it it’s false. Do you really think that a infinite God can be contained in a book?

IOW excuses why UR-ites cannot support their bogus claims with anything resembling credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical etc. evidence. We are just supposed to accept anything they say.