Universalism and Grace

[Neogaia777]

The standard January Sales deal.

The best deal!

It's free!

God Bless!

 

[Hmm]

The best deal!

It's free!

God Bless!

Except God doesn't do deals, especially those with a closing date such as your exciting offer that can't be missed.

Anyway, forget self-promotion. Do you have anything relevant to say on the topic of the thread?

 

[Neogaia777]

Except God doesn't do deals, especially those with a closing date such as your exciting offer.

God is going to be taking me in a different direction when the weather starts getting better, and it is going to occupy a lot of my time, etc...

I will still try to make some time to be on here, it will probably just be a lot less, etc...

P.S., about the "deals" thing in your/mine last responses, I thought we were just jesting/joking, so I was just trying to play along, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Hmm]

God is going to be taking me in a different direction when the weather starts getting better, and it is going to occupy a lot of my time, etc...

I will still try to make some time to be on here, it will probably just be a lot less, etc...

P.S., about the "deals" thing in your/mine last responses, I thought we were just jesting/joking, so I was just trying to play along, etc...

God Bless!

Sorry if I misunderstood you. Humour on the Internet may just not be possible!

 

[Neogaia777]

Sorry if I misunderstood you. Humour on the Internet may just not be possible!

We always have emojis Lol...

I don't use them maybe as much as I should though, lol...

God Bless!

 

[Hmm]

We always have emojis Lol...

I don't use them maybe as much as I should though, lol...

God Bless!

I try not to either. f you have to explain a joke, it's no longer a joke! And that's true for a lot of things

 

[bling]

This is probably the chief cause of our very different views. I don't believe that we owe "an unbelievable huge debt" to God because I don't believe in the notion of Orginal Sin, preferring the Orthodox idea of Ancestral Sin instead.

The main difference is that Original Sin views sin as a debt and crime against God. God essentially requires satisfaction both for the guilt of the crime and for the debt we owe Him in payment. This has never made sense to me and I believe it's largely an invention of Augustine.

Ancestral sin OTOH views sin as "missing the mark" or failing to live the life God wants us to live. So, our goal is not to miss the mark again and salvation means achieving "theosis", becoming more Godly in the way we live our lives. It's not legalistic and about crime and punishment the way Original Sin is. Rather than having to pay of some kind of debt by faith (how does that work?), our behaviour has to change and we must reorient ourselves toward God. This makes much more sense to me.

Because our premises are so fundamentally different, so are our conclusions and we're going to have to agree to disagree! I find your view interesting and logical, given your premises, though.

There are a lot of things we do agree on, and I might be more the opposite of what you think I believe then with my believes.

Neither do I believe in the doctrine of original sin. That is not the huge debt I am talking about!

I fully agree with your statement: “. This has never made sense to me…”.

I also agree with your believing this is not true: “God essentially requires satisfaction both for the guilt of the crime and for the debt we owe Him in payment.”

There are like 16 different Hebrew words for sin with “missing the mark” being only one of them, but even missing the mark can be a big error depending on your ability to hit the mark and your motive for missing the mark.

I do not agree with the “Ancestral sin OTOH”, we have the same nature as Adam and Eve, who sinned with the nature they had and we start out at birth sinless, but now having knowledge of good and evil, a law written on our hearts (conscience) giving us tons more ways to sin we do sin at mature adulthood.

A newborn baby is in a safe condition, not needing to be saved, but also not yet having Godly type Love.

You can drop the word “debt” and just talk about hugely offending the creator of the universe with our sinning and thus needing forgiveness.

How much do you feel you have offended the Creator of the Universe by your actions, a little or a lot? The Pharisees (like those at the meal in Luke 7) felt really good about themselves (Paul felt good while murdering Christians), but were they big time offenders of God/Christ?

The problem with minimizing our sins is the fact we will feel forgiveness of little and receive little Love.

Christ went to the cross because of my sins and I needed Christ to go to the cross to help me, so I personally am responsible for Christ going to the cross, so how great is God’s forgiveness of my having Christ crucified?

There is no “payment” big enough to erase my “offences” to God, but God is wanting and willing to forgive them, if I am of my own free will, willing to humbly accept this charity and believe (have faith) God’s Love is great enough to forgive.

 

[bling]

He was very critical of them. Calling them "a brood of vipers", "whitewashed tombs", and such.
On the other hand he was a friend of sinners and tax collectors. (traitors)
The sinners knew Christ, the Pharisees didn't. IMHO

No Jew of the day might have said these things about the Pharisees, but could the Pharisees themselves realize Christ was speaking the truth about them and thus repent?

The Pharisees pushed Christ to reveal himself. His responses left doubts. The Pharisees and Experts in the Law were divided or him. (John 9:16)

If anyone had the knowledge at this time to see Jesus as the Messiah it would have been the Pharisees and teachers of the Law. If Jesus had made a very clear statement to these Pharisees that He was the Messiah (as they thought) then they could use that against him brining it to the Romans to early in His ministry.

I think we make WAY too much of the choice and free-will aspects. As if this short life here is all there is "to choose our eternal destiny."

We are not making a choice between heaven and hell, but we are here to obtain Godly type Love, by of our own free will humbly accepting the undeserved gift of forgiveness as pure charity/Love with other likely alternatives.

What choice did an aborted child make? Or a person that had a whole life of mental incapability. You'll likely make exceptions for them and others. But that upsets the whole apple cart. The standard is destroyed when the rubber meets the road.

The Bible does not address those who never had the opportunity to humbly accept the Creator’s forgiveness, but knowing God, they would go on to heaven without obtaining Godly type Love.

This does not “upsets the whole apple cart”, but is part of this messed up world which provides the very best opportunity for willing individuals to obtain Godly type Love.

The Apostle John knew Christ VERY personally. Here's what he has to say.

1 John 3:2 NIV
... But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

OK? John is addressing Christians (we).

 

[Gup20]

This is probably the chief cause of our very different views. I don't believe that we owe "an unbelievable huge debt" to God because I don't believe in the notion of Orginal Sin, preferring the Orthodox idea of Ancestral Sin instead.

The main difference is that Original Sin views sin as a debt and crime against God. God essentially requires satisfaction both for the guilt of the crime and for the debt we owe Him in payment. This has never made sense to me and I believe it's largely an invention of Augustine.

Ancestral sin OTOH views sin as "missing the mark" or failing to live the life God wants us to live. So, our goal is not to miss the mark again and salvation means achieving "theosis", becoming more Godly in the way we live our lives. It's not legalistic and about crime and punishment the way Original Sin is. Rather than having to pay of some kind of debt by faith (how does that work?), our behaviour has to change and we must reorient ourselves toward God. This makes much more sense to me.

Because our premises are so fundamentally different, so are our conclusions and we're going to have to agree to disagree! I find your view interesting and logical, given your premises, though.

I think the salient passage here is Romans 5:​

Rom 5:12, 16-17 NASB95 - 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned ... 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.​

Here we see that sin came into the world through one man (Adam) and death came into the world because of that one sin. Then death spread (not guilt or sin, but death). This makes sense as the judgement was death, not sin (for dust you are and to dust you will return). So Adam's judgement (death) is handed down, but the free gift (life/righteousness) is the result of Christ. But the key distinction that Romans 5 draws is that the death judgement arose from ONE sin, but the life judgement arises from many sins. In other words, life and righteousness of Christ covers and is applied to many sins.

Consider this carefully. For if the GUILT of Adam's sin were spread rather than the consequence of Adam's sin (death), then resurrection would need only forgive the original ONE sin - Adam's sin. However, the grace of God covers the multitude of sins, not just the one sin. This means the application of grace is individual, not corporate.

Consider that Adam's judgement of death was universal for a single sin. Adam, Eve, all humans, all animals, the ground, the plants... indeed the whole of creation was subjected to death - a UNIVERSAL, CORPORATE judgement for a single sin. But according to Romans 5, Christ's work results in many sins being forgiven, not the one sin.

Acts 24:15​

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

​

John 5:28​

“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,​

29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

​

Revelation 21:8​

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

​

Daniel 12:1​

Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.​

2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

So because of Christ each and every human being is resurrected from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.

Additionally, try to make sense of this apparent contradiction without this knowledge on resurrection:

Numbers 14:18​

The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.​

​

Ezekiel 18:20​

The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.​

This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is. Because of Christ, that original universal judgment of death will be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Then, as John 5:28 says, there will be a resurrection of all – the good to a resurrection of life, and the evil to a resurrection of a second judgment and a second death.

2 Timothy 1:10​

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

Notice how death (Adam’s death judgment) is abolished by Christ’s appearing, not by his sacrificial death and resurrection. The very presence of a single person without sin into the world necessitates a repeal (abolishing) of Adam’s death judgment… a vacating of the universal judgment in lieu of individual judgments at the Great White Throne.

​

Revelation 20:11​

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.​

Unlike Adam's universal, corporate judgement, the Great White Throne judgement is an individual judgement. It is THIS great white throne judgement where the gift of grace is applied on the believer's account, not Adam's universal, corporate judgement. Adam's death will be repealed because of the appearance of a single, righteous person causing a universal judgement to become unjust. Then they will be judged as individuals and indeed some will be judged with the second death judgement.... an individual death judgement.

 

[Hmm]

There are a lot of things we do agree on, and I might be more the opposite of what you think I believe then with my believes.

Neither do I believe in the doctrine of original sin. That is not the huge debt I am talking about!

I fully agree with your statement: “. This has never made sense to me…”.

I also agree with your believing this is not true: “God essentially requires satisfaction both for the guilt of the crime and for the debt we owe Him in payment.”

There are like 16 different Hebrew words for sin with “missing the mark” being only one of them, but even missing the mark can be a big error depending on your ability to hit the mark and your motive for missing the mark.

I do not agree with the “Ancestral sin OTOH”, we have the same nature as Adam and Eve, who sinned with the nature they had and we start out at birth sinless, but now having knowledge of good and evil, a law written on our hearts (conscience) giving us tons more ways to sin we do sin at mature adulthood.

A newborn baby is in a safe condition, not needing to be saved, but also not yet having Godly type Love.

You can drop the word “debt” and just talk about hugely offending the creator of the universe with our sinning and thus needing forgiveness.

How much do you feel you have offended the Creator of the Universe by your actions, a little or a lot? The Pharisees (like those at the meal in Luke 7) felt really good about themselves (Paul felt good while murdering Christians), but were they big time offenders of God/Christ?

The problem with minimizing our sins is the fact we will feel forgiveness of little and receive little Love.

Christ went to the cross because of my sins and I needed Christ to go to the cross to help me, so I personally am responsible for Christ going to the cross, so how great is God’s forgiveness of my having Christ crucified?

There is no “payment” big enough to erase my “offences” to God, but God is wanting and willing to forgive them, if I am of my own free will, willing to humbly accept this charity and believe (have faith) God’s Love is great enough to forgive.

I'm glad we're not talking about legalism (Original Sin) then.

When you ask "How much do you feel you have offended the Creator of the Universe by your actions, a little or a lot?", I'd have to answer "a lot", although I think of it more as God being disappointed and upset that we hurt each other and ourselves so much rather than offended. But that makes no difference.

So I do feel that I need forgiveness and love from God and I am wholly grateful that I receive this. But it's only because of the particular course of my life that I am able to say this. If it had gone otherwise and I had never thought about God or had rejected Him, I think it would make a difference to my life but I don't see why it would change my eternal destiny.

Your paradigm, to me, is effectively saying "See, I know that I need forgiveness and so I'm going to be one of the favoured ones in heaven, eternally looking after those who were less spiritually advanced than me at the point of their death". This is pretty much regarding faith as meritorious which is my concern about your "Godly type Love" idea.

 

[bling]

I'm glad we're not talking about legalism (Original Sin) then.

When you ask "How much do you feel you have offended the Creator of the Universe by your actions, a little or a lot?", I'd have to answer "a lot", although I think of it more as God being disappointed and upset that we hurt each other and ourselves so much rather than offended. But that makes no difference.

So I do feel that I need forgiveness and love from God and I am wholly grateful that I receive this. But it's only because of the particular course of my life that I am able to say this. If it had gone otherwise and I had never thought about God or had rejected Him, I think it would make a difference to my life but I don't see why it would change my eternal destiny.

Your paradigm, to me, is effectively saying "See, I know that I need forgiveness and so I'm going to be one of the favoured ones in heaven, eternally looking after those who were less spiritually advanced than me at the point of their death". This is pretty much regarding faith as meritorious which is my concern about your "Godly type Love" idea.

This gets really complicated, but those in heaven without Godly type Love do not have to live with the fact they caused Christ to go to the cross, while I can take the blame for that.

I once was one of them, but then I intentionally sinned and needed a savior and I did humbly accepted forgiveness as charity, so I am the beggar and not them.

There is another issue here also, part of the reason for some is they never got to the opportunity to Love because I was not a good ambassador for Christ, God forgive me. They were also helping me to be faithful.

 

[HSong]

Except God doesn't do deals, especially those with a closing date such as your exciting offer that can't be missed.

There's no FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) with God, it's never too late to believe in Jesus Christ and be saved! Yes, even when someone has already died and is in Sheol!

Boxing Day, or I guess, Week, as it's known now, savings may come and go, but the saving power of Christ Jesus lasts forever!

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

 

[Hmm]

This gets really complicated, but those in heaven without Godly type Love do not have to live with the fact they caused Christ to go to the cross, while I can take the blame for that.

I once was one of them, but then I intentionally sinned and needed a savior and I did humbly accepted forgiveness as charity, so I am the beggar and not them.

I wonder if it's not over-complicated. Isn't it the case that we all need a saviour? Even the innocent and those who can't be held responsible for their actions are going to die and so they also need a saviour just like everyone else.

We all sin and do things we're regretful for but does that have to mean that we need to regard ourselves as "beggars"?

 

[HSong]

So I do feel that I need forgiveness and love from God and I am wholly grateful that I receive this. But it's only because of the particular course of my life that I am able to say this.

Yes, as too I am grateful that I received God's forgiveness by faith in Christ. What led me to come to this belief comes from the circumstances of my life. Who your family members are, who you become friends with, your job, where you grow up, all of these factors play a role into shaping who you are. For me, I grew up weak, as in, with pain and suffering.

And it's because of this weakness that I sought out the Lord, because there was a time where He was my only friend. I would still say He's my best friend of course, but now, I can say that because of being saved by God, I have been able to make many friends, such as all of you who are on this forum. So maybe if I grew up by hanging out with atheist friends, for instance, my world view might be different.

John 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

There are people who might die without ever hearing this truth, because maybe they were born in the present day somewhere without access to Christian Internet sites. Or because they were born in a different era. But Christ promises to give everyone the opportunity to believe in Him. And He won't stop giving those this opportunity until everyone decides to trust in Him and be saved.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[bling]

I wonder if it's not over-complicated. Isn't it the case that we all need a saviour? Even the innocent and those who can't be held responsible for their actions are going to die and so they also need a saviour just like everyone else.

We all sin and do things we're regretful for but does that have to mean that we need to regard ourselves as "beggars"?

If they cannot personally be held accountable for what they did then they did not sin, so no forgiveness is needed. If God ceases to provide these individuals with life on earth, they go to heaven and no savior is needed, they have done nothing wrong.
What difficult or complicated is showing how I am indebted for these safe individuals by helping me with my choice. I will thank them in heaven some way I would hope.

 

[Hmm]

If they cannot personally be held accountable for what they did then they did not sin, so no forgiveness is needed. If God ceases to provide these individuals with life on earth, they go to heaven and no savior is needed, they have done nothing wrong.

I agree. I meant that they need a saviour from death, not from sin.

What difficult or complicated is showing how I am indebted for these safe individuals by helping me with my choice. I will thank them in heaven some way I would hope.

The poor and needy do give us an opportunity to practice kindness and develop in a real way as Christians. I have met some Christians though who use this as an excuse not to try to eradicate poverty and illnesses from the world. I don't mean you btw!

 

[bling]

I agree. I meant that they need a saviour from death, not from sin.



The poor and needy do give us an opportunity to practice kindness and develop in a real way as Christians. I have met some Christians though who use this as an excuse not to try to eradicate poverty and illnesses from the world. I don't mean you btw!

We seem to be in agreement here, but I might press the point of fulfilling our earthly objective with the help of this messed up world as an opportunity to see, experience, receive, give and grow our Godly type Love through use.

 

[Der Alte]

I wonder if it's not over-complicated. Isn't it the case that we all need a saviour? Even the innocent and those who can't be held responsible for their actions are going to die and so they also need a saviour just like everyone else.
We all sin and do things we're regretful for but does that have to mean that we need to regard ourselves as "beggars"?

My advice to people who are worried about this, is read the Bible, the whole Bible instead of just the out-of-context proof texts which seem to support your assumptions/presuppositions. God has provided for infants, small children, the mentally challenged and those who live in remote areas.

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 2:14
(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

 

[Hmm]

My advice to people who are worried about this, is read the Bible, the whole Bible instead of just the out-of-context proof texts which seem to support your assumptions/presuppositions.

I can't. I'm too busy reading your copypasta.

 

[Der Alte]

I can't. I'm too busy reading your copypasta.

Yes, this is your usual cop-out. You can't refute anything I post so you resort to veiled insults. Wonder why you don't call UR-ites posting the same out-of-context proof texts over and over as "copy-pasta?"