Universalism and Grace

[Hmm]

You can't refute anything I post so you resort to veiled insults.

So you feel that you're free to accuse me of not reading the Bible and of posting out-of-context proof texts but I'm insulting you if I reply to that and say that you post copypasta? Very odd.

 

[Der Alte]

So you feel that you're free to accuse me of not reading the Bible and of posting out-of-context proof texts but I'm insulting you if I reply to that and say that you post copypasta? Very odd.

Copy-paste often implies plagiarism that one has copied someone else's work and presented it as their own without properly identifying the source. But as I said UR-ites, you included, post the same out-of-context proof texts over and over and over, that does not require reinventing the wheel every time the same vss. are reposted. Same copy-pasta [I looked it up] vss. get the same reply. Want different answers? Get some new material.
If you had read the entire Bible you could anticipate my responses and have a ready reply.

 

[Hmm]

If you had read the entire Bible you could anticipate my responses and have a ready reply.

I like silliness but this is a little bit too silly for me I'm afraid.

 

[Der Alte]

I like silliness but this is a little bit too silly for me I'm afraid.

Is it? How can I "copy-pasta" in response to virtually everything you "copy-pasta" if I have not read the vss. and already have a scriptural response?

 

[Frosty Cook]

My thoughts.....
We start first by repenting from unbelief to belief. Then He makes His Home in us through His Holy Spirit. Grace is God's gift of His only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, in order to restore a direct relationship with us through His Holy Spirit. We are drawn to Him by hearing, then a prick of the heart, then repentance from unbelief to belief happens. This is the point of regeneration. I personally believe our love for Him begins with the pricking of the heart. Blessings

If you do not mind, I would like to inject a truth that might throw some light on this subject.

believe that are confusing regeneration with conversion. Regeneration is being born again, and conversion is repenting, after being born again.

 

[Frosty Cook]

Well I am not a Universalist either.
I'm sure there are varying degrees of Universalism but my understanding is this view teaches that all human beings will ultimately be saved and restored to a right relationship with God regardless of faith.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If you do not mind, I would like to inject a truth that might throw some light on this subject.

believe that are confusing regeneration with conversion. Regeneration is being born again, and conversion is repenting, after being born again.

Umm, I believe it is one in the same. I think Calvinists might make this distinction and rightly so per their Tulip model. The non Calvinist model is repent from unbelief to belief and you will recieve His Holy Spirit who converts or regenerates you into the Body of Christ. In Him.
Blessings.

 

[Frosty Cook]

Umm, I believe it is one in the same. I think Calvinists might make this distinction and rightly so per their Tulip model. The non Calvinist model is repent from unbelief to belief and you will recieve His Holy Spirit who converts or regenerates you into the Body of Christ. In Him.
Blessings.

Sometimes regeneration and conversion (a turning around) comes at the same time, but most of the time conversion follows regeneration.

I believe an example of this is found in Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. Because he was already regenerated, evidenced by persecuting the church in all good conscience.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Sometimes regeneration and conversion (a turning around) comes at the same time, but most of the time conversion follows regeneration.

I believe an example of this is found in Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. Because he was already regenerated, evidenced by persecuting the church in all good conscience.

I don't mean to be combative but it would be good to know if you are following Calvinist doctrine. I have found it to be unfruitful to debate because it gets too much in the weeds. Anyhow, that being said, it would be impossible for Paul to have been regenerated with His Holy Spirit while persecuting Him at the same time.
Paul's experience was unique.
Blessings.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Grace covers sins that are not repented. It doesn't replace repenting sin in a private prayer. Once a person know what grace will do it stops that aspect as some people will sin with the expectation those sins will be automatically forgiven. They aren't, not repenting them in prayer will see a person who could be part of the Re:20:4 group being moved to the Re:20:5 group.

Ro:5:18-21:
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered,
that the offence might abound.
But where sin abounded,
grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death,
even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro:6:1-2:
What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin,
that grace may abound?
God forbid.
How shall we,
that are dead to sin,
live any longer therein?

Ro:11:6:
And if by grace,
then is it no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works,
then is it no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work.

Ro:6:14-15:
For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are not under the law,
but under grace.
What then?
shall we sin,
because we are not under the law,
but under grace?
God forbid.

 

[Saint Steven]

Grace covers sins that are not repented. It doesn't replace repenting sin in a private prayer. Once a person know what grace will do it stops that aspect as some people will sin with the expectation those sins will be automatically forgiven. They aren't, not repenting them in prayer will see a person who could be part of the Re:20:4 group being moved to the Re:20:5 group.

How are such things measured?
We sin in ways we aren't even aware of.

We, (by an act of our own free-will), cannot undo what only God can do in the first place. IMHO

 

[Wayne Gabler]

How are such things measured?
We sin in ways we aren't even aware of.

We, (by an act of our own free-will), cannot undo what only God can do in the first place. IMHO

Maybe accepting grace is not exclusive to Christian. The Jews scattered in 70AD would really be lost without grace:
M't:5:3-11:
Blessed are the poor in spirit:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn:
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek:
for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness:
for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful:
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart:
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers:
for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you,
and persecute you,
and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely,
for my sake.
M't:11:6:
And blessed is he,
whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Eze:36:16-23:
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me,
saying,
Son of man,
when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land,
they defiled it by their own way and by their doings:
their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land,
and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
And I scattered them among the heathen,
and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
And when they entered unto the heathen,
whither they went,
they profaned my holy name,
when they said to them,
These are the people of the LORD,
and are gone forth out of his land.
But I had pity for mine holy name,
which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen,
whither they went.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
I do not this for your sakes,
O house of Israel,
but for mine holy name's sake,
which ye have profaned among the heathen,
whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name,
which was profaned among the heathen,
which ye have profaned in the midst of them;
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
saith the Lord GOD,
when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

 

[Frosty Cook]

I don't mean to be combative but it would be good to know if you are following Calvinist doctrine. I have found it to be unfruitful to debate because it gets too much in the weeds. Anyhow, that being said, it would be impossible for Paul to have been regenerated with His Holy Spirit while persecuting Him at the same time.
Paul's experience was unique.
Blessings.

Just for my curious mind, are you implying that once you have been regenerated, you no longer yield your body to sin?

 

[Frosty Cook]

I don't mean to be combative but it would be good to know if you are following Calvinist doctrine. I have found it to be unfruitful to debate because it gets too much in the weeds. Anyhow, that being said, it would be impossible for Paul to have been regenerated with His Holy Spirit while persecuting Him at the same time.
Paul's experience was unique.
Blessings.

I have never read Calvin's writings. My only source for studying the scriptures, are the scriptures, believing that scripture proves scripture, if they all harmonize.

 

[Frosty Cook]

Grace covers sins that are not repented. It doesn't replace repenting sin in a private prayer. Once a person know what grace will do it stops that aspect as some people will sin with the expectation those sins will be automatically forgiven. They aren't, not repenting them in prayer will see a person who could be part of the Re:20:4 group being moved to the Re:20:5 group.

Ro:5:18-21:
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered,
that the offence might abound.
But where sin abounded,
grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death,
even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro:6:1-2:
What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin,
that grace may abound?
God forbid.
How shall we,
that are dead to sin,
live any longer therein?

Ro:11:6:
And if by grace,
then is it no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works,
then is it no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work.

Ro:6:14-15:
For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are not under the law,
but under grace.
What then?
shall we sin,
because we are not under the law,
but under grace?
God forbid.

After Jesus redeemed those that his Father gave him, God looks at them as their sins being as far away from as the east is from the west as pertaining to their eternal inheritance is concerned, but the born again child of God does, indeed, yield his body to sin at times, and must repent in order to regain his fellowship with God.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Just for my curious mind, are you implying that once you have been regenerated, you no longer yield your body to sin?

Not implying that the flesh is sinless. The flesh is weak.
I am taking about regeneration of man into communion with God through His Holy Spirit, spiritual man, not about our flesh. "The flesh is weak but the Spirit is willing". We walk with His Holy Spirit daily because He made His Home in us.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

After Jesus redeemed those that his Father gave him, God looks at them as their sins being as far away from as the east is from the west as pertaining to their eternal inheritance is concerned, but the born again child of God does, indeed, yield his body to sin at times, and must repent in order to regain his fellowship with God.

I put it a slightly different way. After they witness God sending all the sinful angels to the lake, the population is taken to the place below. They enter New Jerusalem directly as they are sinless. Once there, they never leave the city. The ones that are judged at the GWT event catch a lift back to the new earth and from there are scattered around the universe as that is the area the new earth covers.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Heb:12:22-23:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Joh:14:2:
In my Father's house are many mansions:
if it were not so,
I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you.

 

[Der Alte]

I put it a slightly different way. After they witness God sending all the sinful angels to the lake, the population is taken to the place below. They enter New Jerusalem directly as they are sinless. Once there, they never leave the city. The ones that are judged at the GWT event catch a lift back to the new earth and from there are scattered around the universe as that is the area the new earth covers.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Heb:12:22-23:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Joh:14:2:
In my Father's house are many mansions:
if it were not so,
I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you.

Jesus also said,

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus never said, "Everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven!" Jesus said, "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;" Then Jesus said, "Many" NOT a few, "will say to me in that day," i.e. "Judgement day" "Lord, Lord, have we not ...in thy name done many wonderful works?"
Then Jesus will say to those "many," "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." When Jesus says "never," He means "never" not someday by and by.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Jesus also said,

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus never said, "Everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven!" Jesus said, "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;" Then Jesus said, "Many" NOT a few, "will say to me in that day," i.e. "Judgement day" "Lord, Lord, have we not ...in thy name done many wonderful works?"
Then Jesus will say to those "many," "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." When Jesus says "never," He means "never" not someday by and by.

Actually, He said 'all flesh' would be saved.
What you are referencing is not all who claim to be saved will be part of the Re:20:4 list, they are part of the Re:20:5 list instead.

Lu:3:6:
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
1Co:15:39:
All flesh is not the same flesh:
but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
and another of birds.
Lu:12:6-7:
Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings,
and not one of them is forgotten before God?
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Fear not therefore:
ye are of more value than many sparrows.

 

[Der Alte]

Actually, He said 'all flesh' would be saved.
What you are referencing is not all who claim to be saved will be part of the Re:20:4 list, they are part of the Re:20:5 list instead.

Lu:3:6:
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
1Co:15:39:
All flesh is not the same flesh:
but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
and another of birds.
Lu:12:6-7:
Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings,
and not one of them is forgotten before God?
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Fear not therefore:
ye are of more value than many sparrows.

I suppose if someone jams enough vss. together they can make the Bible say almost anything.
Jesus did NOT say all flesh would be saved. He said "all flesh" will see the salvation of God.. If Jesus was speaking Hebrew this vs. has a double entendre. In Hebrew the salvation of God is "Yeshua." "All flesh will see the Yeshua of God.
Matt 7:21-23 happens "in that day" i.e. Judgement Day.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

FYI No other vs. cancels Matt 7:21-23.