Universalism and Grace

[All Becomes New]

Only God can save.

I agree, but I'm not sure you do since you think God saves everyone? So when a person repents in hell, it's God saving them?

 

[Saint Steven]

Neither.

Exactly.
God didn't choose who to save and who to incinerate.
"Predestination" is a two-edged sword. (in reference to salvation)

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said:
Only God can save.

I agree, but I'm not sure you do since you think God saves everyone?

So, you believe only God CAN save, but that he refuses? Why? Is he holding a grudge?

God requires us to love our enemies. What does he require from himself?
Does he hold himself to a lower standard than he holds us to?

So when a person repents in hell, it's God saving them?

Repent seems a strange concept to apply to the afterlife.

How would that apply? Would the repentant turn from their sinful life? (what sinful life?)
No nightclubs in Sheol to my knowledge. Anyway, no one is saved by repentance.

Remember, only God can save. You already agreed. How soon we forget.

 

[All Becomes New]

So, you believe only God CAN save, but that he refuses? Why? Is he holding a grudge?

God requires us to love our enemies. What does he require from himself?
Does he hold himself to a lower standard than he holds us to?

Why does God save some and not others? Partially because Christians bear some responsibility in sharing the Gospel with people. And as far as I know, you don't think there is a great need to share the Gospel, likely because you think every one is getting in anyways.

Repent seems a strange concept to apply to the afterlife.

How would that apply? Would the repentant turn from their sinful life? (what sinful life?)
No nightclubs in Sheol to my knowledge. Anyway, no one is saved by repentance.

Remember, only God can save. You already agreed. How soon we forget.

So it's not about repentance? It's just that God waves his magic wand and forgives people's sins in hell?

Maybe I should remind you of what Christ's central message was:

Matthew 4:17 ESV
“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.””

It is God that grants repentance, which is necessary for salvation.

 

[Lost Witness]

Anyway, no one is saved by repentance.

It's a 'Lifestyle' not a "i accepted Christ and repented. I'm SAVED!!!"
once saved always saved is false.
I fell away from the LORD because I quit praying, repenting or even acknowledging him.
he called me back to REPENT and forgave me. hallelujah!

 

[Saint Steven]

Why does God save some and not others? Partially because Christians bear some responsibility in sharing the Gospel with people. And as far as I know, you don't think there is a great need to share the Gospel, likely because you think every one is getting in anyways.

Don't feel bad. Ignorance about UR is quite common.

So, Christians are to blame for those who end up in a forever burning hell. That tops that usual claim that it is their own fault.
I'll be happy to call that some progress. Thanks for taking responsibility. Very noble of you.

Jesus died on a cross to pay the death penalty of sin for the whole world. He didn't just die for the aforementioned neglectful Christians.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

So it's not about repentance? It's just that God waves his magic wand and forgives people's sins in hell?

Maybe I should remind you of what Christ's central message was:

Matthew 4:17 ESV
“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.””

It is God that grants repentance, which is necessary for salvation.

Oh, no. I believe in wailing and gnashing of teeth. Just like when you got "saved".
We will account for every deed and idle word. (careful what you type)
Your whole life on display for everyone to see. Imagine the shame and remorse. (personally inflicted)

Actually, you may have a point about the repentance aspect. But turning to what, or away from what?
There will not be the same opportunities for sin in the afterlife, I don't think. Although Satan got himself in trouble.

But no worries. ALL creation will be redeemed. EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
Does he have knees, or a tongue? Every knee, and every tongue. On earth, in heaven, and under the earth. (Sheol)

 

[All Becomes New]

But turning to what, or away from what?

Away from sin and towards Christ.

But no worries. ALL creation will be redeemed. EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
Does he have knees, or a tongue? Every knee, and every tongue. On earth, in heaven, and under the earth. (Sheol)

How does the acknowledgment of Christ as Lord MEAN that everyone will be saved?

BTW, I found your post exceptionally passive-aggressive.

 

[Saint Steven]

How does the acknowledgment of Christ as Lord MEAN that everyone will be saved?

Glad you asked. I have a prepared answer to this oft asked question. Behold.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

BTW, I found your post exceptionally passive-aggressive.

As I understand it, "passive-aggressive" means not facing the individual, but rather talking behind their back.
Perhaps that's not what you meant?

 

[All Becomes New]

Glad you asked. I have a prepared answer to this oft asked question. Behold.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)


As I understand it, "passive-aggressive" means not facing the individual, but rather talking behind their back.
Perhaps that's not what you meant?

It's not "by the Holy Spirit" that a person proclaims "Jesus is Lord" in the resurrection. All will SEE Him. At that point, we do not need hope or faith because all will SEE He is Lord.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's not "by the Holy Spirit" that a person proclaims "Jesus is Lord" in the resurrection.

If you want to understand UR, you will will have to actually READ my posts. One more time with less info.
Please make note of the Strong's definition of "acknowledge". Thanks.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

All will SEE Him. At that point, we do not need hope or faith because all will SEE He is Lord.

That supports UR. You are making some great progress here. Keep up the good work. Kudos.

 

[Der Alte]

If you want to understand UR, you will will have to actually READ my posts. One more time with less info.
Please make note of the Strong's definition of "acknowledge". Thanks.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
That supports UR. You are making some great progress here. Keep up the good work. Kudos.

Unfortunately the 100+ year old Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. And eksomologeo is one of them. Here from the current edition of BDAG Greek lexicon.

ἐξομολογέω (s. next entry and ὁμολογέω) 1 aor. ἐξωμολόγησα; fut. mid. ἐξομολογήσομαι; aor. mid. ἐξωμολογησάμην LXX (quotable since III B.C.—Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 20, 18; 37, 17—PHib 30, 18 [300–271 B.C.]; also LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph.).
① to indicate acceptance of an offer or proposal, promise, consent, act., abs. Lk 22:6 (the act. is found as rarely [perh. Alex. Aphr., An. Mant. II 1 p. 168, 15] as the pass. [perh. SIG 685, 95]).
② to make an admission of wrong-doing/sin, confess, admit, mid. (Plut., Eum. 594 [17, 7], Anton. 943 [59, 3] τ. ἀλήθειαν, Stoic. Repugn. 17 p. 1042a; Sus 14; Jos., Bell. 1, 625, Ant. 8, 256) τὶ someth. (POslo 17, 14 [136 A.D.] τὸ ἀληθές; Cyranides p. 100, 18 πάντα ὅσα ἔπραξεν; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 11, 30 τὸ ἡμαρτημένον) τὰς ἁμαρτίας (Jos., Ant. 8, 129; s. the ins in Steinleitner, nos. 13, 5; 23, 2; 24, 11; 25, 10) Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5 (cp. 1QS 1:24–26); Js 5:16 (s. PAlthaus, Zahn Festgabe 1928, 1ff); Hv 1, 1, 3; Hs 9, 23, 4. τὰς ἁ. τῷ κυρίῳ confess sins to the Lord Hv 3, 1, 5, cp. 6. τὰ παραπτώματα ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ confess transgressions in the congregation D 4:14. περὶ τῶν παραπτωμάτων make a confession of transgressions 1 Cl 51:3. ἐπὶ τ. ἁμαρτίαις for sins B 19:12. Abs. make a confession of sins Ac 19:18; 2 Cl 8:3. W. dat. of the one to whom sins are confessed 1 Cl 52:1, 2 (w. similarity in form to Ps 7:18; 117:19 and sim. Ps passages, but not=praise because of 1 Cl 51:3 [s. 4 below]).—JSchnitzer, D. Beichte im Lichte d. Religionsgesch.: Ztschr. f. Völkerpsychol. 6, 1930, 94–105; RPettazzoni, La confessione dei Peccati II ’35.
③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, mid. (PHib 30, s. above; POxy 1473, 9; Lucian, Herm. 75) w. ὅτι foll. Phil 2:11 (Is 45:23; s. 4 below).—Nägeli 67.
④ fr. the mngs. ‘confess’ and ‘profess’ there arose, as Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 252 shows, the more general sense to praise, in acknowledgment of divine beneficence and majesty (so mostly LXX; TestJob 40:2 πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ) w. dat. of the one praised (oft. LXX; TestSol 1:5; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 80) σοί (2 Km 22:50; 1 Ch 29:13; Ps 85:12; 117:28 al.; Did., Gen. 60, 20) Mt 11:25=Lk 10:21 (s. Norden, Agn. Th. 277–308; JWeiss, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, 120ff; TArvedson, D. Mysterium Chr. [Mt 11:25–30] ’37; NWilliams, ET 51, ’40, 182–86; 215–20; AHunter, NTS 8, ’62, 241–49); Ro 15:9 (Ps 17:50); 1 Cl 26:2; 61:3; B 6:16 (cp. Ps 34:18). τῷ θεῷ (Tob 14:7; Philo, Leg. All. 2, 95) Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23); τῷ κυρίῳ (fr. Gen 29:35 on, oft. in LXX) 1 Cl 48:2 (Ps 117:19); Hm 10, 3, 2.—DELG s.v. ὁμός. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 351.​

 

[All Becomes New]

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Mine doesn't have that "detail." BTW, why do you say the Holy Spirit is involved in the second coming when all people say, "Jesus is Lord," when He is not?

(BTW, BDAG is by no means a "conservative" lexicon)

 

[Saint Steven]

BTW, why do you say the Holy Spirit is involved in the second coming when all people say, "Jesus is Lord," when He is not?

So, the Trinity magically disappears at the Second Coming? That can't be what you mean. (heresy?) - LOL

 

[Der Alte]

Mine doesn't have that "detail." BTW, why do you say the Holy Spirit is involved in the second coming when all people say, "Jesus is Lord," when He is not?

(BTW, BDAG is by no means a "conservative" lexicon)

Looks like we both had the same idea at the same time. See my post #93 immediately above your #94.

 

[All Becomes New]

So, the Trinity magically disappears at the Second Coming? That can't be what you mean. (heresy?) - LOL

It is that the Holy Spirit is not NEEDED to say Jesus is Lord in the second coming because all will SEE Him.

 

[bling]

These are good questions and of course we can't know the Mind of God well enough to give precise answers. I think we can confidently say though that God doesn't want any of us to suffer and wants us all to have fullness of life. Of course the fact is is that we do all suffer and many of us do not have very fulfilled lives. Humanity has come up with an infinite number of possible reasons but the truth is we don't really know why this is.

One of the beauties of universalism is that all the suffering and wasted opportunities for everyone will be compensated for and all suffering will be redeemed. This, of course, is not true for your favoured alternative of Annihilationism or of ECT where in both models evil finally triumphs over God and deprives Him of His desires.

Unless we have God’s specific answers to our questions, we make assumptions, but the strength of the assumptions depends on the evidence. We know a great deal about God from Christ, what He did and said. God must be totally consistent with what we do know, because God is not arbitrary.

Any organization has a “Mission Statement” which drives the objective which drives all decisions. There are the two great commands which all other commands are subordinate to, combining them we have: Love God and secondly others with all your heart, soul, mind and energy.

Know what we do about God and knowing what we do about this world, God is doing everything possible to help willing humans in fulfilling their earthly objective.

From the story of the “Rich man and Lazarus”, we know all the suffering and “lack of opportunities” are compensated with a home in heaven and all the refused opportunities (the opportunity to experience Godly type Love everyday by caring for Lazarus at the rich man’s feet) are rewarded with a hellish experience.

We do know, why we suffer and some do not have fulfilling lives: this messed up world is the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. Yes, some individuals never have the opportunity to fulfill their objective, but these are not addressed in scripture. What we know about God, they would go on to heaven without fulfilling their earthly objective and be cared for by those who do have Godly type love.

God already knows that we would all change to embrace Him if we but knew Him because He created us in His image to do so.

God knows: some will never of their own free will choose to humbly accept pure undeserved charity as charity, but this is from the free will choices they made, which shows their hearts.

To say: “God can change their will, really against their will”, leaves us without a reason for man to spend time here on earth.

 

[Hmm]

From the story of the “Rich man and Lazarus”, we know all the suffering and “lack of opportunities” are compensated with a home in heaven and all the refused opportunities (the opportunity to experience Godly type Love everyday by caring for Lazarus at the rich man’s feet) are rewarded with a hellish experience.

Although clearly, this hinges on what you mean by a "hellish" experience, whether that's correction with an end goal in sight or purposeless eternal torture.

We do know, why we suffer and some do not have fulfilling lives: this messed up world is the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. Yes, some individuals never have the opportunity to fulfill their objective, but these are not addressed in scripture. What we know about God, they would go on to heaven without fulfilling their earthly objective and be cared for by those who do have Godly type love.

So we don't know then and we have to guess. A two-tier heaven makes no sense to me, sorry.

To say: “God can change their will, really against their will”, leaves us without a reason for man to spend time here on earth.

You keep saying this but, again, this is not what universalism says. No one is forced to love God against their will, which is impossible anyway. Universalism merely says that we will naturally love God when we see Him for as He truly is because that's how we're created to be. It's our nature as children of God.

I'm happy to discuss universalism with you but you have to take into account what people are trying to tell you it means, otherwise we're only going to keep on talking about strawman arguments.

 

[Saint Steven]

It is that the Holy Spirit is not NEEDED to say Jesus is Lord in the second coming because all will SEE Him.

I'll give you that.

Will you go the next step and claim that God will torture for all eternity most/some of those who whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord?

 

[Saint Steven]

You keep saying this but, again, this is not what universalism says. No one is forced to love God against their will, which is impossible anyway. Universalism merely says that we will naturally love God when we see Him for as He truly is because that's how we're created to be. It's our nature as children of God.

On another topic I was stopped by this statement.

Without consequences, there's no freewill.

It might be worthwhile to deconstruct this whole "our will negates God's will" claim.

The claim that anyone would be miserable in heaven seems preposterous. And goes one further to claim they would be "happier" in hell without God.

As a justification for ECT we hear of those who hate God and the enemies of God "getting what they deserve".
If "getting what we deserve" is the measure for our eternal destiny, we're all toast.

And what does this say about the price Jesus paid? Was it somehow insufficient?
From that perspective, free-will has nothing to do with it.

 

[Hmm]

The claim that anyone would be miserable in heaven seems preposterous. And goes one further to claim they would be "happier" in hell without God.

Exactly. Anyone saying they would prefer hell would no more be in their right mind and therefore acting freely than someone who runs into a bonfire. Human law recognises the concept of "being of sound mind" and I'm sure God is capable of doing so too.