Universalism and Grace

[All Becomes New]

Nothing to do with your question, but I was thinking recently about life.
You appear to be a young man, probably the age of one of my sons. (42, 36)
Anyway...

I spend my time making friends and allies.
No need to make enemies, they will come find you.

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said:

Nothing to do with your question, but I was thinking recently about life.
You appear to be a young man, probably the age of one of my sons. (42, 36)
Anyway...

I spend my time making friends and allies.
No need to make enemies, they will come find you.

That's funny. - LOL

I remember that a week or two ago, you and I were having a grand discussion about evangelism.
Then I posted something to the effect of: "This is a good discussion. See, we don't have to be enemies."

I saw no response to that post. Did I miss your reply?

 

[All Becomes New]

Did I miss your reply?

Didn't give one.

Heresy is no joke. Someone can be the most loving person alive, but if they believe what is false, it doesn't help them in the end.

 

[public hermit]

This is why I asked people to exegete Daniel 12:2. Nowhere in that verse does it indicate what you are saying. If the contempt is not eternal, neither is the life.

If you want to interpret olam as eternal, fine. But you should stop acting like no one has responded. The fact is, it doesn't matter what anyone says to you. You will believe what you want and then judge those who disagree, as you have done.

 

[Hmm]

Did God desire Adam and Eve to sin?

Did God desire the angels to rebel in heaven

Does God desire satan to roam the earth?

I am saying God allows and even causes thinks to happen in the best interest of those who can obtain Godly type Love, but personally does not “desire” they happened.

Christ personally did not desire to be tortured, humiliated and cruelly murdered on the cross and God out of empathy for Christ would not personally want Christ to go to the cross, but allowed a willing Christ to go for our sake.

God does want and desire everyone to happy with Him in heaven, but God cannot change himself and heaven, to make us happy if we are not happy with Godly type Love.

Again, there are things even God cannot do: God cannot make our free will choice for us to humbly accept pure charity and still be our choice. If you do not make that choice as a free will choice we cannot obtain Godly type Love (Luke 7).

These are good questions and of course we can't know the Mind of God well enough to give precise answers. I think we can confidently say though that God doesn't want any of us to suffer and wants us all to have fullness of life. Of course the fact is is that we do all suffer and many of us do not have very fulfilled lives. Humanity has come up with an infinite number of possible reasons but the truth is we don't really know why this is.

One of the beauties of universalism is that all the suffering and wasted opportunities for everyone will be compensated for and all suffering will be redeemed. This, of course, is not true for your favoured alternative of Annihilationism or of ECT where in both models evil finally triumphs over God and deprives Him of His desires.

“If she doesn’t”, like the true me and never would like the true me, can and should I change my true me? I cannot tell if she would never like the true me, but God can look into the heart of a person and know if they would ever change.

God already knows that we would all change to embrace Him if we but knew Him because He created us in His image to do so.

 

[All Becomes New]

If you want to interpret olam as eternal, fine. But you should stop acting like no one has responded. The fact is, it doesn't matter what anyone says to you. You will believe what you want and then judge those who disagree, as you have done.

You don't get to say that when @Der Alte has responded to you and done a much more thorough job of combating your views than I have. Yet it does nothing to change your mind. Why? Because you (along with most people) don't base your beliefs on evidence but on other things.

 

[Hmm]

Because you (along with most people) don't base your beliefs on evidence but on other things.

Let me guess... you are one of the rare exceptions. "Am I right?" he asks the teacher eagerly.

 

[public hermit]

You don't get to say that when @Der Alte has responded to you and done a much more thorough job of combating your views than I have. Yet it does nothing to change your mind. Why? Because you (along with most people) don't base your beliefs on evidence but on other things.

I disagree with Der Alte. What I don't do is judge him on that account. In fact, not only do I not judge him, I actually like him very much.

You want to warn people that their position regarding ultimate judgment will "not help them in the end." That kind of backhanded condemnation is unacceptable. You are not God.

 

[All Becomes New]

Let me guess... you are one of the rare exceptions. "Am I right?" he asks the teacher eagerly.

No, I never said that. However, I probably know more evidences for Christianity than a lot of people on this site.

 

[All Becomes New]

I disagree with Der Alte. What I don't do is judge him on that account. In fact, not only do I not judge him, I actually like him very much.

You want to warn people that their position regarding ultimate judgment will "not help them in the end." That kind of backhanded condemnation is unacceptable. You are not God.

I'm not condemning anyone. I think Universalism is wrong and dangerous to preach to other people, but that doesn't mean that if a person believes in universalism they are not saved. However, I think people need to be very careful of what they teach because teachers are held to a higher standard.

 

[Hmm]

However, I probably know more evidences for Christianity than a lot of people on this site.

How do you know? Do you know a lot of people on this site?

Or do you have no evidence(s) at all?

 

[Aaron112]

we must genuinely repent of all our sins in this life in order to be saved from the punishment of eternal torture. But is this even possible and has anyone ever managed to do it? Can anyone here say that they have faced up to the full extent of their sins and the effects that this has had on others?

Certainly.
Absolutely.
Perfectly.
Sadly, there are many who will be reaping what they sow, as written, which is not eternal life.

 

[Aaron112]

No, I never said that. However, I probably know more evidences for Christianity than a lot of people on this site.

That's not actually saying much though, is it.

I agree with you, and the evidences for Christianity are without end, very very available to those who honestly look for them....
but most people seemingly never do.

 

[All Becomes New]

How do you know? Do you know a lot of people on this site?

Or do you have no evidence(s) at all?

That's not actually saying much though, is it.

You're right, it's not saying much. I don't claim to know a lot about the evidences of Christianity. I would say I know enough to be dangerous, which is more than most Christians who never really look into it at all.

 

[Hmm]

Certainly.
Absolutely.
Perfectly.
Sadly, there are many who will be reaping what they sow, as written, which is not eternal life.

Agreed. But does "reaping what they sow" have to equate to eternal torture? Can it not mean learning from your mistakes?

 

[Aaron112]

You're right, it's not saying much. I don't claim to know a lot about the evidences of Christianity. I would say I know enough to be dangerous, which is more than most Christians who never really look into it at all.

You do apparently know enough to know we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling because of the eternal and tremendous cost if we fail to do what is required. Jesus warned us that many try hard all their lives to enter His Kingdom, and never get to.

 

[Hmm]

From all that The Creator Reveals, Yes.
=================================================================

No.
If someone learns from their mistakes, instead of reaping what that sow, instead of suffering for their rebellion,
they repent . As it is written, not many repent. Not many are chosen. Most refuse to stop serving idols and/or demons.

Well, as long as you are one of the chosen few, I'm happy

 

[All Becomes New]

You do apparently know enough to know we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling because of the eternal and tremendous cost if we fail to do what is required. Jesus warned us that many try hard all their lives to enter His Kingdom, and never get to.

All I can say is that I can identify with Apostle Paul's struggle when he says,

Romans 7:18–19 CSB17
“For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.”

Most people don't think they are "bad." Most people think they are "good enough." But if we knew what "good enough" actually was, we would despair. But that is why God sent his Son.

 

[Hmm]

I don't think you are actually happy for me .... not for a good reason anyway...

Oh, okay.

Do you think yourself that you are one of the chosen few, as God Himself Says,
or one of the many who are never chosen ?

Neither.

 

[Saint Steven]

Didn't give one.

Heresy is no joke. Someone can be the most loving person alive, but if they believe what is false, it doesn't help them in the end.

Love your neighbor as yourself is unimportant to God?
I suppose that would be a good reason to neglect love. Howdy, neighbor.

You misspelled Hershey. And it is a joke compared to Nestle'. - LOL

Heresy is anything that doesn't align with an orthodox religious view.
Doctrine is man-made anyway. Vain attempts to codify our understanding of God.
No one is saved by doctrine. Only God can save.