Universalism and Grace

[Hmm]

UR's position offers the most robust understanding of grace since God is the sole mechanism of salvation and this act is not arbitrary but wholly commensurate with the divine nature.

I agree. Philip Yancy, who's not a universalist AFAIK, said this about grace in an interview here Grace - Philip Yancey

"I challenge anyone to find an example of a person who lives a perfect life, so I’m glad those of us who fail have grace to rescue us. I would add, though, that Jesus deliberately “raises the bar.” If you look at the Sermon on the Mount, he keeps raising the ideal, so high that no one can meet it. You don’t murder—do you get angry with your brother? You don’t commit adultery—do you lust? He raises the bar so high that no one can meet it, and then provides the safety net of grace. We don’t have to gain God’s approval by jumping over the bar. Indeed, when we fail, grace is there to rescue us."

 

[Blade]

Yeah Christ came Christ died on the cross for the worlds sin. He paid the price for my sins. There is no sin I have to answer for. I goof up I repent He is just and holy forgives me and He cleanses me from all unrighteousness. As for guilt then you don't know understand why He died. See they OT would offer something for guilt. Guilt is just one more thing He did die for. There is no guilt. He said I didn't come to condemn but to save.

And if you heard the good news and you reject Jesus Christ.. He said it your not getting in. Many will try to climb in but He is the way He is the truth He is the life He is the only door in. As for anyone else living or dead no one has a say. He sees the heart and there will be many in heaven we thought should not be there. PRAISE GOD we don't get a say huh. Well its HIS creation so what He says goes.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Even after being born again, people still have a flesh and unrenewed mind. The lust of the flesh is always there. Jesus pointed out that you do not have to actually commit a sin to be guilty of sin. Lust is adultery. Hate is murder. That really raises the bar. Every thought, word and deed. The flesh and the mind are not born again.
For 51 years I have been fighting the flesh and the evil of the soul. I think I will be doing this till the day I die or am taken up.

This is the lifeline of my life, that is the faithfulness and justice of the Lord to do what He said He would do:

1 John 1:9
9. But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness.

Incorporate this into your prayer for forgiveness:

Psalms 19:12-14 NET
12. Who can know all his errors? Please do not punish me for sins I am unaware of.
13. Moreover, keep me from committing flagrant sins; do not allow such sins to control me. Then I will be blameless, and innocent of blatant rebellion.
14. May my words and my thoughts be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my sheltering rock and my redeemer.

Jeremiah 17:9 NET
9. The human mind is more deceitful than anything else. It is incurably bad. Who can understand it?

Matthew 15:19 NET
19. For out of the heart come evil ideas, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

I am always amused by people who claim they have successfully repented from all sin. Even before they are saved! All they have repented of is the tip of the iceberg. The Holy Spirit will be working on you till you die. Listen to Him.

 

[Lost Witness]

Repent of the Foolishness that is UR,
While there's still time

 

[bling]

But isn't that because most people don't see the need to humble themselves to the extent you describe? If they did, I agree, most would not be "happy" to do it. It would be too much. We're kind of in agreement because it's much like the point in the OP that fully acknowledging our sin is too much for us. However, most people do believe they are saved and are happy to believe this.

The Bible tells us everyone will eventually be made humble; Matthew 23:12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Those exalting themselves today are not being humble, so if you feel God is obligated to save you, are you not putting yourself in an exalted position?

If a gun is put to our head to be humble, then we are not choosing to be humble. We have gravely offended the creator of the Universe, which can be “hard to live with” and we might try to minimize the offence but making lite of it to make it more palatable, is not the answer, where humbly accepting His forgiveness as pure charity works.

People will do and think almost anything to get out of humbling themselves to the point of accepting pure charity. Some will say, “accepting God’s forgiveness as pure charity, would mean we deserve or worked for our salvation, so we did not accept it, but it was bestowed upon us and we are just grateful”, so they did not accept charity. Some will say, “all will be “forced” to accept God’s charity in the next life”, since there is no other alternative. If God does it to or for you, then YOU did not of your own free will accept it.

As I have stated before: “humbly accepting God’s Love (charity) is needed to obtain Godly type Love”. (Luke 7)

Why can't Hitler's sin be destroyed just because it once happened? By the same logic, Hitler can't be destroyed because he also happened.

Hitler is a tangible being continuing to exist until destroyed, but his sins are not tangible things, but historic events, which cannot be destroyed. The history of Hitler cannot be destroyed, but Hitler himself can be destroyed.

 

[public hermit]

Repent of the Foolishness that is UR,
While there's still time

Are you saying salvation depends on one's belief in eternal torment?

 

[Hmm]

Those exalting themselves today are not being humble, so if you feel God is obligated to save you, are you not putting yourself in an exalted position?

I don't feel that God is "obligated" to save me, but that He wants to.

Some will say, “all will be “forced” to accept God’s charity in the next life”, since there is no other alternative. If God does it to or for you, then YOU did not of your own free will accept it.

No one is saying that God "forces" people to love which of course would be impossible.

You seem to be adding words that suit your case, which makes discussion difficult.

Hitler is a tangible being continuing to exist until destroyed, but his sins are not tangible things, but historic events, which cannot be destroyed.

What is Corinthians 3:15 referring to then? "If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire." You seem to be saying the opposite, that the builder will be burned up, not the "work".

 

[Hmm]

Are you saying salvation depends on one's belief in eternal torment?

If ECT is a required belief, it would be in the Nicene Creed and it isn't. It's ironic that St Gregory of Nyssa, the "Father of Fathers" in the Orthodox church, who played a major role in drawing up the creed, was a universalist.

 

[Michie]

Gregory of Nyssa Is Not a Universalist: An Introduction

People so universally and consistently assume Gregory of Nyssa is a universalist, it unsettles the faith of many. For some, it encourages their authoritatively condemned heresy. For others, it make…

orthodoxchristiantheology.com

 

[Der Alte]

If ECT is a required belief, it would be in the Nicene Creed and it isn't. It's ironic that St Gregory of Nyssa, the "Father of Fathers" in the Orthodox church, who played a major role in drawing up the creed, was a universalist.

That one or two ECF believed in universal reconciliation [UR] does not make it scriptural. Jesus certainly did not believe in UR. See e.g. Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[Michie]

That one or two ECF believed in universal reconciliation [UR] does not make it scriptural. Jesus certainly did not believe in UR. See e.g. Matthew 7:21-23.

Jesus died for all but out acceptance of that plays a huge role. God will not force anyone into His Kingdom as much as He desires it.

 

[Hmm]

Gregory of Nyssa Is Not a Universalist: An Introduction

People so universally and consistently assume Gregory of Nyssa is a universalist, it unsettles the faith of many. For some, it encourages their authoritatively condemned heresy. For others, it make…

orthodoxchristiantheology.com

Although according to St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Gregory of Nyssa is a universalist:

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Soul and the Resurrection (St. Gregory of Nyssa)

Extract from his "On the Soul and Ressurection":

"His [God's] end is one, and one only; it is this: when the complete whole of our race shall have been perfected from the first man to the last—some having at once in this life been cleansed from evil, others having afterwards in the necessary periods been healed by the Fire, others having in their life here been unconscious equally of good and of evil—to offer to every one of us participation in the blessings which are in Him, which, the Scripture tells us, 'eye hath not seen, nor ear heard,' nor thought ever reached."

How is this not universalist? Dr. Ilaria Ramelli makes the point that for Gregory free will was compatible with universal salvation because every person will eventually accept the good having gone through purification.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus died for all but out acceptance of that plays a huge role. God will not force anyone into His Kingdom as much as He desires it.

I could not agree more. But some folks claim a sinner does not have to repent in this life they will automatically be saved after death.

 

[Hmm]

I could not agree more. But some folks claim a sinner does not have to repent in this life they will automatically be saved after death.

You are misrepresenting universalism so it's not possible to discuss your post.

 

[Michie]

I could not agree more. But some folks claim a sinner does not have to repent in this life they will automatically be saved after death.

I think we both agree it’s a false Gospel. Theological thought is one thing. Teaching a false Gospel is quite another. A very dangerous one too.

 

[Der Alte]

Although according to St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Gregory of Nyssa is a universalist:

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Soul and the Resurrection (St. Gregory of Nyssa)
Extract from his "On the Soul and Ressurection":
"His [God's] end is one, and one only; it is this: when the complete whole of our race shall have been perfected from the first man to the last—some having at once in this life been cleansed from evil, others having afterwards in the necessary periods been healed by the Fire, others having in their life here been unconscious equally of good and of evil—to offer to every one of us participation in the blessings which are in Him, which, the Scripture tells us, 'eye hath not seen, nor ear heard,' nor thought ever reached."
How is this not universalist? Dr. Ilaria Ramelli makes the point that for Gregory free will was compatible with universal salvation because every person will eventually accept the good having gone through purification.

In the absence of scripture, Gregory's views on UR are no more compelling than the scribbling on a public washroom wall. And Dr. Ramelli's opinion is no better.

 

[Der Alte]

You are misrepresenting universalism so it's not possible to discuss your post.

Wasn't addressed to you but feel free to correct me where I am wrong, from scripture, if you can.

 

[JulieB67]

Yes. This is when the refining process that we are all going to go through takes place. We will all be "salted with fire" Mark 9:49. I know that's not something that's taught much nowadays.

We are refined in our lifetimes not in the LOF that was prepared for the devil and his angels.

For example these verses,

Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."

Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Those in God are tested and tried through their lifetimes, not after death and in the Lake of Fire. That's not biblical at all.

And it's impossible for faith to play a part after death. Faith is part of our trust in Christ. And for things unseen. After death, everyone will have seen Christ, so faith is impossible.

And only those not written in the book of life at Judgement Day will be thrown into the LOF. Not all will be thrown in as your implying. Again, it's not a refinery. God and the Holy Spirit are the refinery -in our lifetimes.

 

[Michie]

Of interest given the topic.

How Universalism, ‘the Opiate of the Theologians,’ Went Mainstream - Christianity Today

Michael McClymond decries the rising popularity of an idea Christians have rejected for most of church history.

www.christianitytoday.com

 

[bling]

I don't feel that God is "obligated" to save me, but that He wants to.

Does God always get what He wants and/or desires?

No one is saying that God "forces" people to love which of course would be impossible.

You seem to be adding words that suit your case, which makes discussion difficult.

Are you saying God changes our want and thus does not force us, but would that make us a different person we did not want to become?

What is Corinthians 3:15 referring to then? "If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire." You seem to be saying the opposite, that the builder will be burned up, not the "work".

Our "work" is to go out and try to make disciples. The person we work with to make a disciple really has to choose of their own free will to be a disciple, so they may remain lost, but that does not mean we are lost. We are told to do the work, but what we have to work with is what is around us.