Universalism and Grace

[Hmm]

In the absence of scripture, Gregory's views on UR are no more compelling than the scribbling on a public washroom wall. And Dr. Ramelli's opinion is no better.

And your views are what? Of a higher status than scribblings on public washroom walls? Do you write on the ceiling like Michaelangelo? I can quite believe it, or at least imagine you trying, but I'd like to hear from you why you think your own scribblings, sorry, words of indisputable wisdom even though invariably prefaced with "Rubbish!!!", are more compelling than Greg's or Elli's?

 

[Hmm]

Does God always get what He wants and/or desires?

Of course. He is God. He gets what He wants and/or desires.

Are you saying God changes our want and thus does not force us, but would that make us a different person we did not want to become?

Imagine a date night... You like her and hopefully she like you but if she doesn't or has a few lingering doubts, what do you do? Do you try to woo her so she finally sees sense and realises what a splendid chap you are (Universalism)? Or do you run away leaving her to foot the bill, block her, and never see her again (Annihilationism)? Or do you until your dying day and continuing into eternity, Eternal Contract Telecommunicationally, if that's a word (ECT), send her endless texts and emails reminding her of just what she has missed out on (Infernalism)?

 

[Der Alte]

And your views are what? Of a higher status than scribblings on public washroom walls? Do you write on the ceiling then like Michaelangelo? I can quite believe it but I'd like to hear from the maestro himself why he thinks his own scribblings, sorry, words of indisputable wisdom, are more compelling than Greg's or Elli's are?

Did you read my post? I gave you the answer. The absence of scripture. As for the high priestess of UR, Ilaria Ramelli. I never heard of her until 3-4 years ago when another member quoted her as saying. "Origen spoke of 'after eternal life,' many times." In order to find out what Origen actually said I had to purchase his "Commentary on the gospel of John books 13-32." In that writing Origen mentioned "after eternal life." one time.
Here is what Origen actually said.

Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.[John 4:13-14]
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20 Pg. 23
Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13—32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (vol 89) washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​

And here is what Dr. Ramelli claimed Origen said.

But even the aiónes will come to an end, Origen tells us: “After aiónios life a leap will take place and all will pass from the aeons to the Father, who is beyond aiónios life. For Christ is Life, but the Father, who is ‘greater than Christ,’ is greater than life” (Comm. in Io 13.3; quoted in Ramelli, p. 160).

Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope

This article has been expanded and revised and republished under the same title “Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever.” Please click on the link and read the updated piece. When discu…

afkimel.wordpress.com

 

[Hmm]

Did you read my post?

Yes.

I gave you the answer.

Oh.

The absence of scripture.

But, but... there's no scripture in your post either so I don't understand your criticism.

You only reference T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans. (vol 89) washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press. But that's standard. Everyone references T. P. Halton sooner or later but I happen to know T. P. Halton personally and, although he's a great guy, he would never claim to have written scripture, and even his closest friends wouldn't claim that on his behalf. So your post leaves me puzzled and bewildered and yet strangely confident that you can shed light on this...

 

[Der Alte]

Yes.
Oh.
But, but... there's no scripture in your post either so I don't understand your criticism.
You only reference T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans. (vol 89) washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press. But that's standard. Everyone references T. P. Halton sooner or later but I happen to know T. P. Halton personally and, although he's a great guy, he would never claim to have written scripture, and even his closest friends wouldn't claim that on his behalf. So your post leaves me puzzled and bewildered and yet strangely confident that you can shed light on this...

It does not require scripture to read something by a ECF promoting UR and observe it does not itself include any scripture. Are you enlightened yet?

 

[Hmm]

Are you enlightened yet?

I hope not. I don't want to be enlightened, I just want to be a nice person.

 

[Der Alte]

I hope not. I don't want to be enlightened, I just want to be a nice human being.

You asked me to shed light. I sheded light. You should be enlightened.

 

[Hmm]

I sheded light.

How could you though when you can't even spell the word?

 

[Saint Steven]

You exegete that verse and I will answer any questions you have.

How about if we just pretend that you won and leave it at that?

 

[Saint Steven]

God is the sole mechanism of salvation and this act is not arbitrary but wholly commensurate with the divine nature.

This bit at the end of your post #17 is solid gold. Such an important point. Thanks.

Many have heard me ask about these other mechanisms/views by writing, "How are such things measured?"
As soon as you add anything to Grace it makes a mess.

 

[Saint Steven]

The sinner can be forgiven, but sin itself cannot be forgiven, since sin did nothing of its own.

Consider this.

Genesis 4:7 NIV
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

 

[public hermit]

You exegete that verse and I will answer any questions you have.

How about you do a word study on  olam for us, while noticing the various contexts and translations, and then when you're done, explain how it makes sense to project our (Greek inspired) notion of eternity onto a culture that had no such notion. Let's settle for "age enduring" and move on since this dead horse has been beat ad infinitum.

Here's some help: Strong's Hebrew: 5769. עוֹלָם (olam) -- long duration, antiquity, futurity

 

[Der Alte]

How about you do a word study on  olam for us, while noticing the various contexts and translations, and then when you're done, explain how it makes sense to project our (Greek inspired) notion of eternity onto a culture that had no such notion. Let's settle for "age enduring" and move on since this dead horse has been beat ad infinitum.
Here's some help: Strong's Hebrew: 5769. עוֹלָם (olam) -- long duration, antiquity, futurity

You buy into the same error many uninformed folks do. Strong's is NOT a lexicon, it is a concordance, it does NOT define words, it only lists the translations found in the KJV. Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions.
If you want informed translation of the Hebrew, which I doubt, may I suggest the 1917 Jewish Publication Society JPS translation which is available free online. If you do, be advised, they translate olam and ad
עד עולם as for ever. more than 300 times.

Tanach (JPS): The Law

The Tanach, Jewish Publication Society [1917], full text etext at sacred-texts.com

www.sacred-texts.com

Here for you one vs. in the O.T. which very clearly defines olam as eternal.

Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever; [olam] nothing can be added to it, nor any thing taken from it; and God hath so made it, that men should fear before Him. ​

Ecc 3:14 ​

ידעתי כי כל־אשׁר יעשׂה האלהים הוא יהיה לעולם עליו אין להוסיף וממנו אין לגרע והאלהים עשׂה שׁיראו מלפניו׃ ​

​

 

[bling]

Of course. He is God. He gets what He wants and/or desires.

Did God desire Adam and Eve to sin?

Did God desire the angels to rebel in heaven

Does God desire satan to roam the earth?

I am saying God allows and even causes thinks to happen in the best interest of those who can obtain Godly type Love, but personally does not “desire” they happened.

Christ personally did not desire to be tortured, humiliated and cruelly murdered on the cross and God out of empathy for Christ would not personally want Christ to go to the cross, but allowed a willing Christ to go for our sake.

God does want and desire everyone to happy with Him in heaven, but God cannot change himself and heaven, to make us happy if we are not happy with Godly type Love.

Again, there are things even God cannot do: God cannot make our free will choice for us to humbly accept pure charity and still be our choice. If you do not make that choice as a free will choice we cannot obtain Godly type Love (Luke 7).

Imagine a date night... You like her and hopefully she like you but if she doesn't or has a few lingering doubts, what do you do? Do you try to woo her so she finally sees sense and realises what a splendid chap you are (Universalism)? Or do you run away leaving her to foot the bill, block her, and never see her again (Annihilationism)? Or do you until your dying day and continuing into eternity, Eternal Contract Telecommunicationally, if that's a word (ECT), send her endless texts and emails reminding her of just what she has missed out on (Infernalism)?

“If she doesn’t”, like the true me and never would like the true me, can and should I change my true me? I cannot tell if she would never like the true me, but God can look into the heart of a person and know if they would ever change.

 

[bling]

Consider this.

Genesis 4:7 NIV
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

I love the poetic language of this verse. Yes, we are surrounded by temptation and must be on our guard. Demons also can surround us, but we are not to say: “The devil made me do it” or I was temped above my ability to escape, 1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

We need to quit trying to pass the blame and admit our faults and weaknesses.

 

[Saint Steven]

I love the poetic language of this verse. Yes, we are surrounded by temptation and must be on our guard. Demons also can surround us, but we are not to say: “The devil made me do it” or I was temped above my ability to escape, 1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

We need to quit trying to pass the blame and admit our faults and weaknesses.

That's a great verse with a promise for those facing a difficult temptation. Ask God to show you the way out. It works. (personal experience)

 

[All Becomes New]

How about you do a word study on  olam for us, while noticing the various contexts and translations, and then when you're done, explain how it makes sense to project our (Greek inspired) notion of eternity onto a culture that had no such notion. Let's settle for "age enduring" and move on since this dead horse has been beat ad infinitum.

Here's some help: Strong's Hebrew: 5769. עוֹלָם (olam) -- long duration, antiquity, futurity

So you think life is not eternal?

 

[Saint Steven]

So you think life is not eternal?

Nothing to do with your question, but I was thinking recently about life.
You appear to be a young man, probably the age of one of my sons. (42, 36)
Anyway...

I spend my time making friends and allies.
No need to make enemies, they will come find you.

 

[public hermit]

So you think life is not eternal?

I understand the Hebrew olam and the Greek aionion to refer to an undetermined period (age). Some people are prepared to enter the divine presence, God being the only eternal-properly speaking, and some are not. Those who are prepared enter the age of life, while those who are not enter the age of condemnation, which is purgative until God is finally all in all.

 

[All Becomes New]

I understand the Hebrew olam and the Greek aionion to refer to an undetermined period (age). Some people are prepared to enter the divine presence, God being the only eternal-properly speaking, and some are not. Those who are prepared enter the age of life, while those who are not enter the age of condemnation, which is purgative until God is finally all in all.

This is why I asked people to exegete Daniel 12:2. Nowhere in that verse does it indicate what you are saying. If the contempt is not eternal, neither is the life.