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Trinity: Biblical teaching or Pagan doctrine?

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by franklin, May 23, 2002.

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  1. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Wannabe,

    It has been two days and I see no response to the information I posted. I thought you wanted to discuss these issues. But it appears that you only want to force your views on others, and expect everyone to swallow whole hog everything you say, although you have not produced one piece of credible evidence or proof.

    I am a minister in a mainline denomination and I have been discussing and opposing the false teachings of the sacred name cults for a few years. I can link to dozens of websites that have done much, much more research and documentation that I have and can refute and rebut virtually all of the anti-Christian accusations of these cults.

    It seems strange to me that people will accept these teachings without thoroughly checking them out. For example the blatantly false teaching that the name Jesus is derived from the name of a pagan deity, Zeus, Iaso, what have you.

    As pointed out in the article above. Paul was preaching to a group of Greek philosophers on a hill dedicated to one of their deities, Mars hill actually, Areapogus. The way leading up to that hill was lined with statues of the many Greek deities. So when Paul started preaching to them about Jesus, actually IesouV/Iesous, most if not all of them should have immediately recognized the name, as either Zeus or Ieso, or whatever. After all according to you, Y'shua's name was changed to some form of Ieso, specifically to appeal to the Greeks. But not only did none of the Greeks there recognize the name, but referred to Jesus as a strange God.

    And since according to you, Jesus' name was specifically changed to make Jesus more appealing to the Greeks here is where Paul should have informed them, that Jesus was in actuality their healing godess Ieso or Zeus or whatever, and convince them of his teachings.

    But that did not happen. Why not? Why is it the very thing you claim, did not happen? And let me give you a little hint. You will not find any evidence whatsoever in the writings of the early church to support this nonsense either.
         
     
  2. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    I tried to fix the below post but it keeps showing all the code and I dont know why. Thats the 1st time that has happened to me. Just try and read around the code.

    Your looking at this verse all wrong.

    6 But to us there is but one God,(this is true there is only one God/ deity) the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    You see the conjuntions in this verse. It is saying both the father and Jesus are God. It also shows that their is a difference between the father and Jesus.

    Notice in Isa 44:6 that we have the preincarnite Jesus and the father mentioned here and they both agree that they being 1 God was from the first to the last.

    Notice the plurality of Gen 1:26 with the word "us". The us doesnt refer to angels because they were created Neh 9:6. Ps 148:2-5 and they are never portrayed as having part in the creation. Basicaly the Father is the planner Jesus executes his plans and the Holy Sprirt is the organizer and power behind the miracles. Notice the following quick points about Jesus.

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">I and my Father are one.
    John 8:58 He says that I AM
    Luke 4:8 Jesus says you are to worship God
    Rev 22:8-9 Says you are to worship God
    Matt 8:2 Jesus accepts worship therfore he is God
    John 20:28 Thomas says my Lord my God without being corrected.
    Heb 1:4-9 Destroys that Jesus was an angel and God calls him God.
    Act 2:34 Says My Lord said to my Lord.
    </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">

    </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Holy Spirit


    He speaks, hears, resists, wills, guides and is called God John 16:13, Acts 5:3-4, Rom 15:19, 1 Tim 4:1, 2Peter 1:3-4, John 14:26, Acts 16: 6-7, 1 Cort 2:10, 1Cort 12:11 Mat 12:31 Eph 4:30&nbsp;

    </SPAN>The GodHead is Triune in nature. It is not 1+1+1 but instead its 1x1x1. They have the perfect unity and they are equal but they have different funtions/roles within their unity.


    This is AngelAmidala here...I worked some on the post.&nbsp; I think I got rid of some of the coding stuff...it kind of freaks out when you quote someone's post and then use the WYSIWYG interface for your actual post.&nbsp; :)
     
  3. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    use [ ]
     
  4. wannabe

    wannabe Member

    88
    +0
    Sorry Old Shepard, had to go away for a few days and when I came home my computer will not connect to the internet, so I have to go to the library. I see you are putting false information on this forum about YAHWEH's name bringing it to ruin. YAHWEH issues a STERN warning for this.&nbsp;Satan has a way of convincing man's mind to think one thing and yet everything has been reversed.

    First of all you are are speaking of "Paul" in the Scriptures. If you dig into your history books, you will see it was "Shaul" and not "Paul". Paul was an apostle of the Greek. Shaul was an "Emissary"

    Do you see the problem I am having already with talking to a Ashurian/Greek/Christian Minister?

    You will see all the names YAHWEH has used for His Scrolls (the Greeks renamed it Biblyo or Bible) HAS BEEN CHANGED.

    Iesous (Jesus) has been referred as the Greek&nbsp;healing GODESSS (you said that not me)

    Christians need to stop lisening to ministers Priests etc... and research on their own and they wil be SHOCKED to discover where the titles/name LORD, GOD, IESOUS CHRISTOS (Jesus Christ) actually came from. All these Pastors etc... have a good way of "tickling your ears" but if you read Revelation very carefuly as well as the 10 commandments, what the "churches" are preaching is&nbsp; "dazzling an audience"&nbsp;while breaking the laws!&nbsp;but when things can't be explained they tell you "oh, its a mystery"

    It's also good to see Old shepard that you also recognize "Baal" is "Lord" and you know Baal is Baalzebul, Beelzebub= Satan!!

    Hmmm...A title used for satan. Now would this title be honored by our Creator? Remember satan wanted all humans to worship him and lead the humans away from who we are suppose to "Cherish".

    **note, Satan wants "worship" from humans (from the greeks) **Our Creator wants us to "cherish" Him.

    &nbsp;

    Rev. 12:9 "Satan, Who led all the world astay"

    &nbsp;

    -shalom
     
  5. Ioustinos

    Ioustinos Veteran

    +146
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    Speaking as one looking on the topic, I must say that others such as Shepherd have provided many links, articles, and criticisms regarding the sacred name movement. On the other hand you provide your view point and when others don't agree with you then basically you tell them that they are ignorant of truth and that they worship Greek gods rather than responding to the criticism.

    It would be easier to prove your point by refuting the criticisms and articles rather than trying to belittle those who disagree with you and without assuming that your view point is the ultimate and final "truth."



    Just my opinions and observations. :sorry:


    Jesaiah

    Ps. Since you wan't to continue in the sacred name tradition then I would suggest you look at the Old Testament Israelites. For they rarely spoke the name YHWH in order to keep from any chance of using His name in vain. Thus you should use the name Adonai like the Israelites did in order to reverence the sacred name of YHWH (Yodh-He-Waw-He). :bow:
     
  6. Amatire

    Amatire Member

    336
    +1
    ooh ok, I didnt read the whole thread so youve probably covered this already, but, someone said that Jesus was worshipped as a deity and therefore he must be God because he was perfect, and he would not have accepted the worship if he wasnt God right? Otherwise that would have been an imperfect action...

    Well I thought this too, it was one of my reasons for agreeing with the whole trinity idea, then I looked around in my bible and I found that elisha when elijah had gone up into heaven had recieved the "worship" of his fellow prophets when they saw that elijah's spirit lived on within him...

    the words my bible uses in both cases - for Jesus and elisha - is "bowed down on the ground before him" now is this just a bad translation, does the original script actually imply two different things in the two different cases or what?!

    A little help?

    xx Am xx
     
  7. Amatire

    Amatire Member

    336
    +1
    Absolutely and brilliantly well put!&nbsp; I couldnt agree more!&nbsp; I have spent so much time worrying about tiny niggling details since I started really looking into philology and the Greek/Hebrew origins of the Word.&nbsp; Every single difference between my english translation and the original greek has become a major hurdle, especially because a lot of them lead to a slightly different interpretation of the verse.

    As a result I have totally lost my peace, I have been full of doubt and worry and I have found it very difficult to communicate with God, your post is a wake up call.&nbsp; He knows my heart, he is&nbsp;I AM,&nbsp;for goodness sake! That means he IS and he KNOWS everything.&nbsp; He knows my heart and that my prayers are directed to him.. one point, tho, there is a difference between praying to the LORD and praying to God, the difference is the image you hold in your heart as you do.&nbsp; I was praying for a long time to a God who was a slave driver and an angry parent, God did not answer me, why? because as far as he was concerned I wasnt talking to him because he is not like that.&nbsp; As soon as I pulled back and realised "hang on, my God isnt like that! He LOVES me!" and started praying to him, he began to answer. It was a lesson learnt, God doesnt worry about the english word you use, although in other cases words are important (the name of Jesus for one).&nbsp; He IS concerned however, with what is in your heart.&nbsp; We are told not to pray to an image, that is idolatry, the difference is not the name we call him but the nature we attribute to him.&nbsp; And that is an affair of our hearts, often when I am struggling to pray, I cant find the words, buy wannabe's logic that means he cant answer, if everything comes down to words, when I cry out to God in groans as paul described, God will turn round and say "what, are you talking to me?! Speak english girl!"&nbsp; or even worse, "I aint listening until you speak to me in hebrew!"

    Wannabe, remember that many generations of people have suffered and died to provide us with bibles in our own language, it has advanced our understanding and our personal relationships with God no end.&nbsp; So it seems unlikely that God would say to all those people who have come to know him thru the translations, many of which arent intelligent enough or have the time available to look into Greek and Hebrew in detail, "Depart from me I never knew you!"&nbsp; does it?!&nbsp; If that is the case, Heaven will be a very empty place populated by a cluster of scholers and professors and that will be it.

    A friendly warning, please dont take this personally, if it hurts your feelings, let me know and I WILL appologise.. it certainly isnt meant that way.&nbsp; Take care you - or any of us for that matter - dont fall into the trap of becoming a pharisee, you are sounding a little too like one at the moment for my comfort.&nbsp; I struggle with it too, remembering that it is about grace, not any form of law, and that the little rules we put on ourselves can stifle us and those we are trying to help, the pharisees missed the boat because they were all wrapped up in technicalities, dont make the same mistake. :hug:
     
  8. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
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    First I could care less about your unsupported, irrelevant babblings. Look at the top of this forum the title is "Christian Forums" not world history. If you have some evidence against something I post, the burden of proof is on you to prove it. And I haven’t seen due-dew but your opinion. You are just dragging a bunch of sacred name stuff out from under the rocks and dumping it here without any evidence, proof, or documentation. I guess you think you are the next Jim Jones or David Koresh, everyone is just supposed to roll belly up like a dead carp and believe everything you say.
    Do you see the problem I am having with someone who is dishonest and lacks integrity? When you join this forum you agree to follow the rules. This is a "Christian Forum" your posts violate rules 4 and 6, and possibly others. And I think the name calling is another violation.
    I don’t see any evidence of this?
    That is not true! On 12th July 2002 06:34 AM you posted "Then there is the Greek healer "Iesous Christos" (From the Greek healer "Ieso")" Calling it "healer" does not change the fact that "Ieso" was the name of the Greek goddess of healing. I only proved from lexical and Biblical sources that there is absolutely no connection between the name "Ieso" and the name "iesouV.

    Yes all cults want Christians to stop listening to ministers, etc., etc., etc., and start listening to them. Just swallow everything "Wannabe" says.


    Hmmm, You have just demonstrated your ignorance of the Hebrew language and the fact that you ignored almost everything I posted. As the source I quoted earlier said, and which you have just put your cult spin on, "Ba’al" is a Hebrew word which means lord or master. But by suffixing other nouns to it, such as "zebul" or "zebub" it then can mean "Lord of the flies" or "Lord of the dung heap"

    Ba’al alone does not mean Satan. Twice in the Ta’nakh YHWH uses the term "Ba’al" to refer to Himself. And before you even think about the so-called lying scribes I suggest you read the Hebrew.

    Jeremiah 31:31-32 reads, "'The time is coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will make a new covenant with the Family of Israel and with the Family of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke My covenant, and I ba'alti them,' declares the LORD."

    "I can think of one time when the Holy Spirit used Ba'al as a title for God. (Isaiah 54:5, "Your Makers is your Husbands (=ba'als, Heb. "Vo'alayikh")." <B></B>More sources which prove Wannabe’s sacred name cult garbage for what it is.

    "THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS GREEK[/u]"

    An entire book, a documented study, written by someone who rescued himself and his family from a sacred name cult.



    http://www.sacrednamemovement.com/NTisGreekContents.htm

    Restoration of the Sacred Name. But which one? All of these names are in use by sacred name groups, every one of them claiming that their pronunciation is correct. They cannot all be right but according to them if you say it wrong you are calling on a pagan deity.<B><I></B></I>
    <DIR>

    2. God Is At Least Two

    </DIR>
    Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities

    <P align=justify>

    <P align=justify>As if to even make the case for plurality stronger, there are situations in the Hebrew

    <P align=justify>

    <P align=justify>Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is:<B>

    <P align=justify></B>


    <P align=justify>Psalm 45:7-8: "Thy throne, which is of God, shall stand for ever and ever: The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

    <P align=justify>

    <P align=justify>It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.

    <P align=justify>A second example is:<B>

    <P align=justify></B>


    <P align=justify>Hosea 1:7: "But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by Jehovan their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses nor by horsemen."

    <P align=justify>

    <P align=justify>The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of Jehovah, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

    <P align=justify>

    <P align=justify>Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is:<B>

    <P align=justify></B>


    <P align=justify>Genesis 19:24: "Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven."

    <P align=justify>

    <P align=justify>Clearly we have Jehovah number one raining fire and brimstone from a second Jehovah who is in heaven, the first one being on earth. A second example is:<B>

    <P align=justify></B>


    <P align=justify>Zechariah 2:12-13: "For thus saith Jehovah of Hosts; for your glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you; for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake my hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts hath sent me."

    <P align=justify>

    <P align=justify>Again we have one Jehovah sending another Jehovah to perform a specific task.

    <P align=justify>The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton<B> (</B>"Personal Name of God of<B> </B>Israel," written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was 'Adonai' ('the Lord'), itself later replaced by 'ha-Shem' ('the Name'). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of 'Adonai.' Encyclopedia Dictionary of Judaica Page 593) and wrote:

    <P align=justify>

    <P align=justify>"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit." (Zohar, Vol. III, pg 288, Vol. II, pg. 43)

    http://www.familybiblestudy.net/b2_s10_c2.htm

    This book makes a scholarly inquiry into the subject of the so-called "sacred names," and uncovers the truth of the matter. Among other things, it shows that scholars from one generation to the next have been in disagreement regarding the proper pronunciation of the tetragrammaton (at one time, the accepted pronunciation was "ya-hoo"), and that, historically, the evil Jew has invoked the tetragrammaton when attempting to cast spells and curses. The book discusses at length the concept of name, showing that <I>name</I> is synonymous with the terms identity,<I> </I>reputation, character, authority<I>,</I> etc, and has relatively little to do with pronunciation. Concerning the Sacred Names, Russell L. Harris.

    "Sadly, arguments presented to encourage use of the sacred names typically are flawed, on several grounds. First.<I> </I>The arguments almost always demonstrate failure to comprehend the basic concept of name. Second.<I> </I>The arguments usually indicate confusion regarding the matters of translation and transliteration. Third.<I> </I>The arguments often reveal fundamental misunderstanding concerning the identity of the God of Israel. <I>Fourth. </I>The arguments indicate naivety with respect to the consequences of pursuing association and familiarity with the Hebrew language and the Hebrew Scriptures—entities from which the early Church by the providence of God was segregated, and of which she was rendered independent."

    http://www.broadcaster.org/books/book-01p.pdf
     
  9. Amatire

    Amatire Member

    336
    +1
    Hmm I have a proposal, its not a proof for the validity of the Trinity, its not even anyone else's idea but my own - at least I have not yet found anyone using it, - but I think you will find it interesting.

    It goes like this.

    NUMBERS

    in the bible there are certain numbers that are used to represent certain things over and over again both in the old and new testaments.

    7 -seven days of creation, the sabbath is holy, "how many times must I forgive my brother? 7 times?" "no 77 * 7 times!" the seven seals on the scroll in revelation: ....... represents perfection - God

    6 -on the sixth day God created man, the number of the beast is 666, ...... Generally accepted as the number for fallen humanity.

    12 - twelve tribes of Israel, twelve disciples ..... the holy nation/the church

    40 - forty days and forty nights of rain during the flood, 40 years in the wilderness, jesus spent 40 days in the desert before satan was defeated during his temptation. 40 days is the life cycle of a fly, satan is called Lord of the Flies, so... ........ stands for evil (and the time taken to conquer it perhaps?)

    10 - the ten commandments, the ten plagues used to conquer the deities of Egypt... (the first commandments being about not worshipping other gods...) ...... does this therefore stand for the LAW?

    AND FINALLY

    3 - three times Jesus was tempted, three times peter denied jesus and 3 times jesus asked him if he loved him as a reinstation, jesus rose again on the third day, he described it himself as tearing down the temple and rebuilding it. the temple belongs to who? God, so jesus in tearing down his body on the cross was tearing down the frame he as God was living in. ..... what could this number represent then? well what other significant thing has 3 parts? except for God himself! therefore does this number represent the trinity? well I dont know, I have wondered whether it represents salvation, forgiveness etc etc and many other things, but in the end I have to come back to this, salvation comes from God, forgiveness comes from God, so 3 must mean God.

    just a thought

    commence the backlash!

    xx Amatire xx
     
  10. wannabe

    wannabe Member

    88
    +0
    I don't know what most christians think but myself, I get pretty upset when I find out I've been "tricked" most of my life. I have been in and out of churches since I could crawl and things never made much sense to me (for example: why were things written originally in Hebrew then suddenly changed to Greek EVEN THE NAME OF OUR SAVIOR, Hmmm) It doesn' t take much effort to put the pieces to the puzzle together whith a little research. You can grab pretty much any Greek mythology book and learn what happened when things "collided" with the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, what they did to the Jews and the Hebrew texts etc... They go into great detail. Its funny to hear people call other people who are acknowledging the truth and corruption in these end times "sacred name cults" when in FACT if you found&nbsp;out what went on in&nbsp;Biblical history that placed these pastors etc... where they are today, you will be shocked to discover who belongs to a "cult".

    &nbsp;

    Greekmythology entered Rome from 2 directions. MANY deities were worshipped. Appollo's cult was more highly politically influenced. Bacchanalias in honour of Bacchus, the Roman form of Dionysus, also took root...They were followed bySyrian Deities with similiarly wild cults, notably Adonis and various fertility goddeses...and later on, the unconquered sun-god Sol invictus....Mithras too was "solarized" for his celebrity feast was shared witht the sun god Sol, the god of Constantine (The one who started the trinity doctrine was worshiping what??? The sun???) but before this Roman Mythology by Augustus and the poets of the first century A D. It was largely Artifitial mythology.

    Oh boy, and I'm accussed of belonging to a cult. This is just a tiny, tiny example of what has been led up until today.

    &nbsp;

    Esus was also a Gallic deity comparible to the scandinavian Odin. the Greek abreviation for "Iesous" is "IHS"&nbsp;and is found on many inscriptions made by the church during the middle ages. IHS was the mystery name of Bachus (Tammuz), ANOTHER SUN DEITY .

    I don't know about what christians think but something is definately not right how we were tricked into worship of the name "Iesous Christos" (Jesus Christ)

    By the way, the Greek word "Christos" (where we get Christ)&nbsp;means to "smear" or "rub" oil&nbsp;

    The Hebrew "Mashiyah" means to annoint or the annointed.

    The "smearing" or"rubbing" of oil can be traced back to certain "Greek rituals" and "ashurian rituals"

    -Shalom
     
  11. wannabe

    wannabe Member

    88
    +0
    Oh yeah, I forgot to list my resource. "The Worlds Mythology In Color" by Veronica Ions

    -shalom
     
  12. Amatire

    Amatire Member

    336
    +1
    hang on a minute wannabe, havent you ever heard that Satan is the worlds best mimicker?! He cannot create anything for himself. God is the creator, one of the ways in which we are made in his image is the ablilty to create, fallen angels arent made in the image of God, so they cannot create anything for themselves.

    Satan cannot come up with any original ideas, so what does he do? He takes an Idea of God's and he twists and distorts it, he also has a very good spy network, that is how he knows exactly what thoughts to plant in our heads at whichever time to best confound us, to cause doubt and strife. He knew about the trinity, could one who had stood before the throne of God and beheld his Glory not know?! And he also guessed very carefully when God was going to reveal this to us. And as he always does when he sees God beginning to move, he gets in first with a twisted version to confuse us and make as many as possible miss the truth. So when Jesus was to be sent to earth, what did he do? He created a "trinity" of sun gods and provided as many gods as possible with similar names etc.... so that people would look away from Jesus.

    Now dont tell me that if the trinity were a true doctrine we would have known about it right from the beginning of time. we did not know about Jesus, are you going to tell me he wasnt the saviour of the world now? The old testament jews did not know about Heaven or Hell, they only knew of Sheol. which was a vague "place of the dead" they did not even know about the law until moses!

    Time and again in my personal faith God has revealed something new which I did not know before. and time and again I find just before he is about to move powerfully in my life, satan gets in first to cause confusion in the hope that he will push me off the path. Time and again when I have heard of God moving around the world before he has, there has been another "fake" movement which sounds oh-so-similar and yet is not from God, like the recent western obsession with "Angels" but no God to go with it. Are you going to tell me that because satan used angels as a distraction from the truth there are no such thing!?!? far from it, he was once one himself, I have seen them with my own eyes, one even saved my life! He takes something true and distorts it, he has never once come up with an original idea!!!!

    Therefore rather than making me doubt the doctrine of the trinity your evidence has helped me see that it is true.

    thanks!

    xx Am xx

    ps, are u going to respond to any of the previous things I have said, or this post for that matter or are you going to avoid my comments completely and just spout more stuff? it is not easy to have a debate with someone when you dont think they are even paying attention to what you are saying, and seem totally oblivious to any comment you make that would prove/disprove what they are saying... or are you not here to have a discussion, and if so, why are you here? Perhaps you would be better served putting your opinions on a website where you wouldnt have all our annoying interruptions!
     
  13. wannabe

    wannabe Member

    88
    +0
    You want me to continue speaking with you after I replied with a post with information with Greek/Roman Deities and Constantine who was worshiping these deities who&nbsp;was responsible for starting the trinity Doctrine and you stated you&nbsp; believe in the trinity even more now?? I have nothing left to say.

    -shalom
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    *SIGH* another conspiricy theory huh wanna? This stuff gets old ya know. Trinity is in the bible, its not a man made thing *sigh*
     
  15. Amatire

    Amatire Member

    336
    +1
    Sorry if I offended you wannabe, but did you actually read the whole post thru, or did you just skip to the end? If you read the whole thing you would understand my reasoning for saying your evidence confirms the trinity rather than pulling it apart... you may not agree with me. but I am still interested in hearing your comments directly on what I said.

    The honest truth is that in the past 3 weeks I have been bombarded by people who do not believe in the trinity, having never previously encountered any. Now does this mean God is trying to tell me something? That is why I joined in this discussion, what I have written above is not meant to be scathing to you or to pooh pooh the whole idea, it is rather me thinking aloud,. I do not believe that I should just roll over and accept that the trinity is either true or false without first studying both the for and against, You are doing so well on the for, I wanted to put up some "against" thoughts in the hope that you would directly address them. If you ignore what I put, I have no further idea whether or not my comments are a valid argument or not.

    All I want to know is the Truth.

    I would actually value your input.

    so please dont refrain from responding to what I have written, how can I think this thru if no one is willing to provide me with information?!

    xx Am xx
     
  16. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Do you see the problem I am having with someone who is dishonest and lacks integrity? When you join this forum you agree to follow the rules. This is a "Christian Forum", your posts violate rules 4 and 6, and possibly others. And I think the name calling is another violation. I said I was a Christian but I am not Greek or Ashurian, whatever that is.

    I don't see any evidence of this! Oh by the way do you have any idea what the Greek word bibloV means? I didn’t think so. Where are, "all the names YAHWEH has used for His Scrolls"? How about daleth-beith-resh, dabar, i.e. word?

    False! On 12th July 2002 06:34 AM you posted "Then there is the Greek healer "Iesous Christos" (From the Greek healer "Ieso")" Calling it "healer" does not change the fact that "Ieso" was the name of the Greek goddess of healing. I only proved from lexical and Biblical sources that there is absolutely no connection between the name Ieso and the name iesouV.

    The only ones referring to Jesus as "Ieso" are ignorant 20th century sacred namers and other cults, who know absolutely nothing about church history or the Greek. As I have proved from the scriptures none of the Greek philosophers, in the N.T., connected iesouV with Ieso or any other pagan deity!

    Oh Yes, all the cults, all the Jim Jones and David Koresh wannabes, want Christians to stop listening to ministers, etc., etc., etc., and start listening to them. Just swallow everything some "Wannabe" says. As far as "research on their own", I am the only who has been doing any research, not Wannabe. The only one doing any tickling or dazzling around here is Wannabe.

    Hmmm, You have just demonstrated your abysmal ignorance of the Hebrew language and the fact that you have ignored almost everything I posted. As the source I quoted earlier said, and which you have just put your cult spin on, "Ba'al" is a Hebrew word which means lord or master. See definition below. But by suffixing other nouns to it, such as "zebul" or "zebub" it then can mean, "Lord of the flies" or "Lord of the dung heap."

    Ba'al alone does not = Satan! As a matter of fact, four times in the Ta'nakh, YHWH uses the word "Ba'al" to refer to Himself. And before you even think about the so-called lying scribes I suggest you read the Hebrew.

    Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married (ba’al) unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

    Jeremiah 31:31-32 'The time is coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will make a new covenant with the Family of Israel and with the Family of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke My covenant, and I was a husband (ba’al) them,' declares the LORD."

    Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thy husband (ba’al), the LORD of hosts is His name; and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer, the God of the whole earth shall He be called.

    Actually the Hebrew here is plural "Your Makers is your Husbands

    Nahum 1:2 The LORD is a jealous and avenging God, the LORD avengeth and is full (ba’al i.e. lord) of wrath; the LORD taketh vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserveth wrath for His enemies.

    Strong’s 01166 ba`al baw-al'
    a primitive root; TWOT - 262; v
    AV - marry 8, husband 3, dominion 2, wife 1, married wife 1, Beulah 1; 16
    1) to marry, rule over, possess, own
    1a) (Qal)
    1a1) to marry, be lord (husband) over
    1a2) to rule over
    1b) (Niphal) to be married

    The so-called "lying scribes."

    (KJV) Jer 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes (saphar) is in vain.

    (JPS) Jer 8:8 How do ye say: 'We are wise, and the Law of the LORD is with us'? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes.

    According to the Jewish Publication Society (JPS), you know those people who actually speak, read, and write Hebrew, the verse does not say "lying scribes" or "lying pens" This is a favorite verse of all the cults, so they can twist any verse in the scriptures to say anything they want. "Lying scribes! Lying scribes! Don’t believe what the scriptures say, come over here and drink this koolaid."

    The Jews claimed to be wise merely because YHWH had given them, and not any other people, the law but it was in vain because the wise men rejected the word of the LORD and therefore have no wisdom.

    (JPS) Jer 8:9 The wise men (chakam) are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken; lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

    The scribes and the wise men are two different groups. Scribes are never referred to as wise men (chakam)! If the scribes wrote lies, the wise men would have been right to reject it and YHWH would have rewarded them instead of punishing them, vs. 10. If the scribes wrote lies, how would the prophets and priests know they were dealing falsely?

    (JPS) Jer 8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall possess them; for from the least even unto the greatest every one is greedy for gain, from the prophet (nabiy') even unto the priest (kohen) every one dealeth falsely.

    How can the prophet and the priest not deal falsely, if all they have are so-called "lying words" of the scribes? According to sacred name nonsense YHWH punishes the entire nation of Israel because the scribes supposedly lied.

    Below more sources which prove Wannabe's sacred name cult garbage for what it is.

    "THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS GREEK"

    An entire book, a documented study, written by someone who rescued himself and his family from a sacred name cult.

    http://www.sacrednamemovement.com/NTisGreekContents.htm

    Restoration of the Sacred Name. But which one? All of these names are used by sacred name groups, each one of them claiming their pronunciation is the only correct one. They cannot all be right but according to Wannabe, and other sacred namers, if you say it wrong you are calling on a pagan deity and it doesn’t matter what you believe in your heart. If you do not say the name exactly right YHWH is going to zap you.

    2. God Is At Least Two

    Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities.

    As if to even make the case for plurality stronger, there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is:

    Psalm 45:7-8: "Thy throne, which is of God, shall stand for ever and ever: The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

    It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.

    A second example is:

    Hosea 1:7 "But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by Jehovah their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses nor by horsemen."

    The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of Jehovah, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

    Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is:

    Genesis 19:24 "Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven."

    Clearly we have Jehovah number one raining fire and brimstone from a second Jehovah who is in heaven, the first one being on earth. A second example is:

    Zechariah 2:8-9 "For thus saith Jehovah of Hosts; for your glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you; for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake my hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts hath sent me."

    Again we have one Jehovah sending another Jehovah to perform a specific task. The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton ("Personal Name of God of Israel," written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was 'Adonai' ('the Lord'), itself later replaced by 'ha-Shem' ('the Name'). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of 'Adonai.' Encyclopedia Dictionary of Judaica Page 593) and wrote:

    "Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit." (Zohar, Vol. III, pg 288, Vol. II, pg. 43)

    http://www.familybiblestudy.net/b2_s10_c2.htm

    This book, below, makes a scholarly inquiry into the subject of the so-called "sacred names," and uncovers the truth of the matter. Among other things, it shows that scholars from one generation to the next have been in disagreement regarding the proper pronunciation of the tetragrammaton (at one time, the accepted pronunciation was "ya-hoo"), and that, historically, the evil Jews has invoked the tetragrammaton when attempting to cast spells and curses. The book discusses at length the concept of name, showing that name is synonymous with the terms identity, reputation, character, authority, etc, and has relatively little to do with pronunciation.

    Concerning the Sacred Names, Russell L. Harris

    http://www.broadcaster.org/books/book-01p.pdf

    Note, the problem with strange codes appearing in posts, apparently results when copying material from some web sites. Evidently the html codes are hidden within the file and do not appear even in this forum’s edit mode. To correct this, I saved my post as a text file, which eliminates everything but the basic text, then opened it as a WP doc before reposting.

    BTW the Greek word bibloV/Biblos simply means book or scroll!
     
  17. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Excellent you finally listed a source. One measly book! Who is Veronica Irons and why should&nbsp;we believe anything she says? Is she a noted authority on the Bible? A historian? Or as the title of her book implies she believes in fairy tales and myths?

    Everyone who has followed this thread&nbsp;will be aware that I linked to about a dozen websites, many of which included Greek and Hebrew language resources, and some included documented historical information. Does Ms. Ions provide any documented information from any recognized Biblical, historical or language scholar?

    You claim that Constantine&nbsp;invented the Trinity. If that came from Ms. Ions it is an out and out bald faced lie. Consult any encyclopedia the Trinity was not debated at the Nicaean council in 325 AD. Only the nature of Jesus and the date of Easter. I have posted this before but just for you here it is again. There were no Trinities, i.e. one god in three, in any pagan religion whatsoever!

    The Trinity originated with pre-Christian Judaism.

    "The Cabala, on the other hand, especially the Zohar, its fundamental work, was far less hostile to the dogma of the Trinity, since by its speculations regarding the father, the son, and the spirit it evolved a new trinity, and thus became dangerous to Judaism. Such terms as ‘matronita,’ ‘body’, ‘spirit’ occur frequently (e.g. ‘Tazria,’ ed. Polna iii, 43b); so that Christians and converts like Knorr von Rosenroth, Reuchlin, and Rittangel found in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially the dogma of the Trinity (Jellinck, ‘Die Kabbalah’ p. 250, Leipsic, 1844 {transl. of Franck’s ‘La Kabbale,’ Paris 1843}) Reuchlin sought on the basis of the Cabala the words ‘Father, Son, and Holy Ghost’ in the second word in the Pentateuch, as well as in Ps. cxviii, 22 (ib. p. 10) while Johann Kemper, a convert , left in manuscript a work entitled ‘Matteh Mosheh,’ which treats in its third section of the harmony of the Zohar with its doctrine of the Trinity (Zettersteen, ‘Verzeichniss der Hebraeischen und Armamaeischen Handschriften zu Upsala.’ P. 16, Lund, 1900). The study of the Cabala led the Frankists to adopt Christianity, but the Jews have always regarded the doctrine of the Trinity as one irreconcilable with the spirit of the Jewish religion and its monotheism."

    Isadore Singer ed., The Jewish Encyclopedia , KTAV Publishing, 1901, vol. 12, p. 261.

    Where is the Trinity found in the Bible? 1 John 5:7?

    1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    177 AD A Plea for Christians by Athengoras the Athenian: Philosopher and Christian.

    "Who, then, would not be ashamed to hear men speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their distinction in order."

    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-46.htm#P2139_587041

    Above, 1 John 5:7 alluded to, ca. 177 AD. Below, 1 John 5:7 quoted directly, ca. 250 AD.

    Cyprian 250 AD Treatise I On The Unity of the church.

    The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one." And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-111.htm#P6832_2190664

    &nbsp;&nbsp;
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    wow..great posts!
     
  19. wannabe

    wannabe Member

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    Oh yeah Old Shepard keep reading the King James Bible (Your better off reading The bugs Bunny's version)

    Biblyos (little books)&nbsp;is the same as Scrolls? (what school did you attend?)

    The KJV 's&nbsp;DELIBERATE MISTAKES to support the trinity (1 John 5:7).&nbsp;If you look at Hebrew 4:8 you will notice they put Jesus when it refers to Joshua (even Joshua is wrong)

    1 Kings 22:4-7 in the KJV you will see LORD in verse 5, "lord" in verse 6, LORD in verse 7. What most christians are blinded by because of the "blasphemous titles" is&nbsp;the Lord (Adonai) was being worshiped in the Northern Kingdom while YAHWEH was still being worshiped in the Southern Kingdom! Way to go KJV! LETS MISLEAD CHRISTIANS A LITTLE MORE SHALL WE?

    Old Shepard since you keep bringing up "Baal" and think this name is acceptable to Abba YAH,&nbsp;Lets take a look at a less corrupted Bible;

    YeremYAH (falsely called Jeremiah) Why? Because the "J" developed from the Latin "I" in the 16th century and the Latin "I" carried the sound of&nbsp;"ee" from the hebrew "Y" bringing over the false name "Jeremiah" which the Greeks and Latins ended up removing the "shortened form of the family name of "YAH"

    YeremYAH (Jeremiah)&nbsp; 23:27 "They are doing their best by means of the dreams that they keep telling each other, to make my people FORGET MY NAME, just as thier ancestors forgot my name&nbsp;IN FAVOUR OF BAAL. Let the prophet who has had a dream tell it for a dream! And let him who recieves a word from me deliver&nbsp;my word accurately. 23:32 " I have a quarrel with the prophets,&nbsp;who make prophecies out of lying dreams, YAHWEH declares, who recount them, and lead my people astray by their lies and their bragging.

    &nbsp;

    -shalom
     
  20. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    I’m sorry, since you are evidently legally blind, why don’t you get someone to read my posts to you. I have been quoting from the Hebrew and from the Jewish Publication Society scriptures. If you are going to talk to me, read my posts. This is an absurdly asinine comment after you quoted from a book on mythology and called it history.
    No such word as biblyos! There is no Y in Greek. The word in the Greek N.T. is bibloV or biblion. I have been speaking Greek since 1959 and reading both Greek and Hebrew since 1980. I’ll post one post just for you entirely in Greek you can translate it for us since you imply that you are an expert in Greek. What school did you attend?
    If you will open your eyes you will see I quoted historical sources dating to 177 AD, not the KJV. Also I have read the original Greek, it says the same thing and I have more historical proof. You got diddly! What does the book of Hebrews have to do with 1 John 5:7? Where is your documented, historical proof of "deliberate mistakes". You ain’t got none. All you got is some Jim Jones wannabe anti-Christian sacred namer babbling crud with absolutely no proof.
    Babble, babble, babble. I read the Hebrew, I know what the original says.

    Way to go Wannabe keep posting you lying crud here. I know of very few people who rely on the KJV, most have modern versions. I rely on the original Hebrew and Greek. I have disproved everything you have said so far, the divine name, titles, everything. The only one misled and misleading here is you. So far you have not produced one piece of credible evidence of anything. All we have is one malcontent spewing out anti-Christian crud.
    I read the Hebrew every day, it is not corrupted and you know diddly squat about the Hebrew language. As I said and verified from Strong’s, ba’al is a Hebrew word for Lord, husband, and master. And I gave you four verses from the T’anakh where YHWH referred to Himself as Ba’al. I notice how you totally ignored that. You cannot deal with the truth.

    So instead of posting more of your unsupported crud here why don’t you deal with the proof and evidence I have already posted, then I might answer you. But I must assume that you are not capable of doing that. Probably because you are just parroting someone else’s stuff.

    Here is the original Greek for 1 John 5:7 and I previously posted a link to documented historical evidence dating this to at least as early as 177 AD, that’s about 1500 year before the KJV.

    1 John 5:7 oti treiV eisin marturounteV en tw ouranw o pathr o logoV kai to agion pneuma kai outoi treis en eisin

    7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
     
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