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Trinity: Biblical teaching or Pagan doctrine?

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by franklin, May 23, 2002.

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  1. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    There is good reason to believe that the 'trinity' was fundamentally a pagan idea imported into Christianity - hence the word does not occur in the Bible. Having accepted this idea that God is a trinity, Christians are then forced to reach the positively weird conclusion that somehow God's power/spirit is a person, who is also God, although not God. When confronted with the illogicality of their position, the most popular escape route is for such people to claim that God is a mystery, and we should accept such things in faith without requiring a logical explanation.

    :)
     
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  2. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    *chuckles* yeah, there are a lot of words that' don't appear in the bible at all. So what? There is very clear evidence that they worshiped Christ as diety. Its clear by statements made by Paul himself that he revered Christ as God. I'll go along with them and agree with trinity because its true.
     
  3. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    LBooth:
    Its clear by statements made by Paul himself that he revered Christ as God. I'll go along with them and agree with trinity because its true.

    franklin:
    If you are going to agree with Paul then of course you'll have to agree with Jesus also, they don't contradict each other, plus you can always trust the words of Jesus wouldn't you agree mr booth?

    Paul:
    1 Corinthians 8:6, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

    Jesus:
    John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

    Note well that this last quotation is Jesus Christ speaking; addressing God in prayer as "the only true God," and speaking of himself as separate from that One True God and sent by Him.

    Was Jesus praying to himself or was He praying to God the father?

    When approaching the scriptures logic and commonsence must be applied.
     
  4. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    franklin,

    I think that you are forgetting that the Trinity is not saying that God is 1 person with 1 substance. no the Trinity says that God is 3 persons but 1 Substance. But I will let Louis answer your objections to the particular verses.
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    *chuckles* yeah? Is it really clear by statements made by Paul himself that he revered Christ as God?

    How do you explain the TRUTH that Paul referred to Jesus as the MAN whom God ordained to judge the world in righteousness? (Acts 17:31,22)

    How do you explain the TRUTH that Paul referred to Jesus as the MAN who is the only mediator between God and MAN ? (1 Tim. 2:5)

    How do you explain the TRUTH that Paul referrred to the FATHER s the ONLY ONE God of Christians? (1 Cor. 8:6).

    And how do you explain the TRUTH that Peter referred to Jesus as the MAN whom God attested to by miracles and wonders which God did through him? (Acts 2:22)

    These verses are self-explanatory my friend and NEED not be interpreted to make Jesus MAN - not God.

    This statement, "Its clear by statements made by Paul himself that he revered Christ as God," reflects the fulfillment of apostle Peter's prophecy regarding how UNTAUGHT and UNSTABLE persons TWIST apostle Paul's epistles to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

    Ed
     
  6. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Blackhawk,

    Of course we know what Trinity is. But whether it is one God in three persons but 1 substance or one God in nature but 3 persons, the Trinity doctrine is a man-made DECREE that is taught for doctrine by professing Christians. Most assuredly, their worship of God is in VAIN (Matt.. 15:9).

    Ed
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    *sigh* seebs and ed you have something in common. You both leave out context.

    "Paul referred to Jesus as the MAN "

    *chuckles* yes, because he was man and God. That's what incarnation is all about.

    "Was Jesus praying to himself or was He praying to God the father?

    When approaching the scriptures logic and commonsence must be applied."

    To answer the first question. No, he was praying to the father. They are seperate but one. Read up on trinity docterine. The second statement is very very false. Love isn't logical and doesn't go along with commonsence. Now when saying that you need to add the words HUMAN in front of logic and commonsence. For by your human standards no, God isn't logical, but he is logical.
     
  8. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Blackhawk & LBooth,
    Let's look at some examples in scripture about who Jesus is and who God is, and yes logic & commmon sence should apply:
    Matthew 26:39, "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

    If Jesus and his Father are really just co-equal parts of the same One God, then obviously such a prayer could never be prayed. It is meaningless for the One God to pray to Himself, and say "Not my will but thine." If both are part of one God, then there is but one will.
    Are you getting the picture here guys? Is there a glimmer of light beginning to seep into your minds? Think... ponder the word of God not the words of men!
    The trinity is a doctrine that was dragged into the Christian faith from paganism.
     
  9. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "and yes logic & commmon sence should apply:
    "

    Then you dont' understand God at all. John said God is love, and love sure isn't logical nor does commonsence apply to it. Again, you're saying lets insert YOUR OWN set of predetermined things onto the bible and view it that way. That's not the way to do it seebs.

    "If Jesus and his Father are really just co-equal parts of the same One God, then obviously such a prayer could never be prayed."

    False statement. I can be at odds with myself and not want to do something that I know needs to be done and ask myself is there any other way this can be done. the prayer is a prayer of obendience. See Phil 2:5-8 for more info.
     
  10. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
     
  11. tericl2

    tericl2 A Work in Progress

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    Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

    1 Cor. 12:4-6, Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit . 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord . 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
    (Lord commonly refers to Christ in the NT)

    2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ , and the love of God , and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit , be with you all.
    (note the functions of each part of the God-head, separate but the same)

    Eph. 4:4-7, There is one body and one Spirit , just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord , one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

    1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , by the sanctifying work of the Spirit , that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."
    (again notice the different functions)

    Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit ; 21keep yourselves in the love of God , waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
    (again, separate functions, but the same God-head)
     
  12. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    oh franklin....

    "Was Jesus praying to himself or was He praying to God the father?

    When approaching the scriptures logic and commonsence must be applied."

    Hmm..can you explain col 2:8 then? or Christ's statements and actions of forgiving sins, being worshiped or saying he will raise himself when we know God did it?
     
  13. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Hmm..can you explain col 2:8 then? or Christ's statements and actions of forgiving sins, being worshiped or saying he will raise himself when we know God did it? [/B][/QUOTE]

    Louisbooth,

    1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

    This says Jesus is a MAN, who is a mediator BETWEEN God and man. It does NOT says Jesus is a mediator between himself and man. Does it? Jesus is the SON of God. And it is alright to pay homage, give respect, serve, and worship the SON of God, just as much as it is to do the same to God himself. By honoring the Son, you honor the Father.

    Now let's see if we can cover some of the others you are referring to . . . .

    John 5:22, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

    This is put forward to prove that "Christ claimed he was divine." If this is meant to mean he claimed he was a co-equal, co-eternal member of the Trinity, then it disproves the very point it is put forward to support -- "The Father...hath committed all judgment to the Son."

    Booth, are you following this so far?

    The Father is the Supreme Almighty God with power to commit judgment to whom He will. Consider the context, and see how it shatters the "co-equal" idea --
    The Father hath given the Son authority" (verse 27).

    "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me" (verse 30).

    Get your beliefs from the scripture. You will never find the Trinity in it, or anything like it. It is a product of an age of worldly wisdom and spiritual barrenness.
    Does common sence and logic seem to be coming in a little clearer now Booth?
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "This says Jesus is a MAN, who is a mediator BETWEEN God and man. "

    Correct. Still don't see that going against trinity. God came to earth to medicate between God the father and man.

    "Jesus is the SON of God. "

    ahh..yet another person not seeing the real reason for that title. It has nothing to do with biology or a superior/inferior relationsihp as you imply. See pslams 2.

    "Booth, are you following this so far? "

    Yup, but you forget it is clearly shown that Christ was equal and was God. Phil 2:5-8 tells us he put it all down to come to earth to be our mediator and by his humility to the Father he is an example to us. The ulimate example. Just like when the coach says, "Here, let me show you how its done." God did the same thing.

    Trinity is all over scripture. You just have to open your eyes franklin.
     
  15. AngelAmidala

    AngelAmidala Legend

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    Um...don't you mean...mediate? :angel:
     
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    *laughs* yeah, I did...darn my spelling..
     
  17. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Here is my take on it. Jesus (the Son) and God (the Father) are the same but different apsects of one entitiy.

    This is something that made the Trinity concept clearer to me..I don't particularly like the word Trinity but I believe in the concept. Since it's not in the bible and I rather like going by what the word of God does say.

    Here is what I found: In Hebrews 1:8-10, First I should identify that this is God speaking about Jesus. "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. 9. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity, therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above they fellows. 10. And, Thou, Lord in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands."

    In this scripture we see God (the Father) refering to Christ and God is ACTUALLY referring to Jesus as GOD in verse 8 and he even refers to him as Lord in verse 10. God (the Father) goes on to say that Jesus himself actually laid the foundation of the earth and heaven are the works of his hands. Now if God (the Father) refers to Jesus as God and Lord, that shows that Jesus was more than a man for one..but it also shows Jesus diety as God or in the least being equal with God.

    As we all know in the book of Genesis, God (the Father) is portrayed as having made heaven and earth..not Jesus..so if God says in Hebrews with his own words that Jesus made heaven and earth, then it is possible that Jesus and God are one.

    Personally I look at the concept in this way..God is the almighty ruler over everything and Jesus is his right hand man, but all decisions are made together as one..and since Jesus is the Son of God and when someone is one's child it automatically makes them part of one another. But God does things in decent and in order so Jesus of course would have to mesh well ..meaning that whatever God thinks ..Jesus also thinks..being of one mind and one body..but having separate forms.


    I tie the Holy Spirit in this way: I believe that the Holy Spirit is God's (the Father) active force. And if Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God..then they all are the same..just serve different purposes.

    I admit, it is difficult to comprehend..but I think it can be looked at logically..but of course it involves faith. I will say that people that do not subscribe to the concept of the Trinity, because they simply just don't understand it..or have a hard time accepting it for what they perceive as lack of evidence won't be punished by God for this reason. I think they could be saved in the end..if in fact the Trinity is proved to exist. It is possible to accept Jesus even in the last hour, so even if non-trinity believers accept it..they can be saved. And vice versa..if Trinity believers find out..there is no Trinity, they can always say, "Lord, I really believed there was a Trinity and I did my best to serve you. Please forgive my mishap." Because in essence a Trinity believer can't be screwed out of the inheretance because the bible does say we can worship and pray to Jesus..so in that way..we Trinity Believers (for a lack of a better term..because as I said I dislike the word, Trinity) are covered.

    All one can do is be the best Christian they can..the rest is God's decision. In the end, he will decide who is sincere and who isn't..Trinity or no Trinity.

    Hope this made sense..if not, sorry.
    Missy
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    missy, it does say Christ made all things...it says THROUGH him all things where made. (john 1:3)
     
  19. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

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    Louis, I am not sure what your point is..but I think I did say I believe that Jesus made heaven and earth from the scripture because God says so..I don't think it matters what part of the bible one uses to prove it..it's there plain and simple.

    Missy
     
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