Trinity: Biblical teaching or Pagan doctrine?

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wannabe

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We need to remember the man who started this
"trinity doctrine" was pagan and hated Jews. History texts will show you the executions (burning people on a stake with their Bible)for rejecting this doctrine. Constantine worshiped the son/sun God/god (Gad). To understand this doctrine more clear, one must go back in time to the History books and find out what kind of people these were, making up certain "beliefs" and why it was done.

*note The Creator sent His first brought forth "child"
and not son/sun

Greek/Roman mythology has a way with playing with our minds.

Rev 12:9 "Satan, who had led ALL the world astray"

:wave: shalom
 
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wannabe

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Do we "love" ignorance or "hate" the truth more?

You need to look beyond the KJV Bible.

In a KJV take a look at Hebrews 4:8 and Acts 7:45 In these verses it speaks of (the mispelled name Joshua) and yet KJV stuck the Enlish name "Jesus".

*note The letter "J" never existed in Hebrew or Greek, it was invented 500 years ago.

1Kings 22:4-7 The KJV in verse 5 lists "LORD" in 6 it lists the small "Lord" in verse 7 it lists once again "LORD" however what you don't see because of the "false pen of the scribes" is after King Solomon's death, his kingdom was divided: ten tribes were alloted to Yeroboam, son of Nebat, which was the NORTHERN KINGDOM, the two remaining tribes then formed the SOUTHERN KINGDOM called YAHdah (Judah)under Rehoboam the son of Solomon In 1Kings 22:4-7 we find the Kings of the TWO Kingdoms discussing waging war against the Arameans. Yahshaphat of Yahdah, however, asked to first enquire of YAHWEH (LORD)-about this Joint venture. The small "Lord" refers to "the Baalim" Do you see the harm that is done when you read nothing but LORD, Lord, GOD, God? It makes no difference if LORD or GOD is capitalized, the damage has been done.

-shalom
 
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LouisBooth

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"You need to look beyond the KJV Bible. "

*chuckes*
I do thanks. I study the NASB, the NIV and the greek and hebrew.

If you had read the front of your bible, this issue is usually addressed. For example, in my NASB, it addresses why the words LORD and Lord are used. It has to do with the greek and hebrew text, that is why I do back and look to it when studying. Again, trinity it truth, you haven't given me any reason to believe its not. :)
 
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wannabe

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Sadly Louis, the front of your modern day Bible does not address the issue but it will twist your mind more and more because it does not go into detail.
The first English Bible around 1611 and before that will however give more detail about what these "titles" referred to. As time goes on, money increases and knowledge decreases. They just tell people what they want to hear or "whatever is easier". and in reality the same "titles" that are being used in "Bibles" are also the same "titles" that are referred to in the Bible as "Blasphemous titles" its hard for me to explain to you because I don't think you really care.
But I will let you know that when you call on the "LORD" or "Lord" you call on a word that came from the Old English "Hlaford" meaning "keeper of the loaf" It refers to a person who feeds dependents, as in the head of a Feudal Estate (Webster's new World Dictionary) but what's more important than that is what word did "Lord" substitute from the Greek and the Greek from the Hebrew?

Where did the very popular title "God" come from? Or do you think the Creator sent this title? How did the Greek name "Iesous Christos" develop? Will the front of your Bible tell you? If it did, you would not have bought it in the first place, hmmm. Since you are worshiping these things, you should atleast know there origin.

shalom
 
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Thunderchild

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Eliminate any reference to Jesus as a man from the equation - the Bible quite clearly states that he did not regard deity as a quality to be grasped, but yielded it up to become a man.

As a man, of course Jesus would pray to the Father. Again, no explicit contradiction with the concept of Jesus being God.

You haven't explained why Paul stated that for Christians like him and the Corinthians, there is ONLY ONE God and that is the FATHER.
This IS an objection that deserves serious consideration.

Is that what is written at 1 Cor 8:6? Definitely.

Is there a clear way to reconcile that passage with the concept of Trinity? I can't find one.
 
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Messenger

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We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy [universal] and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Above is what this board has as "trinity". We have to realize there are different "trinity doctrines" One like the one above, has something in it stating that those who don't believe such and such are condemned by the Catholic Church. Now to some people, that might just be horrible to be condemned by the Catholic Church...but to me that is silliness...only God condemns.

I see this thread started with Franklin who I had spoke with over PMs when I was on the "Trinity is a False Doctrine Side"...I really do see what you are saying.

Wannabe, you say it was a pagan doctrine...I don't doubt you. I have found many religious things...most of our holidays have all started out to be pagan days. But should we not celebrate them anymore? I had asked myself this for a while and researched and was about to do away with holidays and all doctrines but then I studied prayed and came to this conclusion (I say conclusion lightly because as long as I am breathing my conclusions change trying to do God's will) :

Holidays were pagan...we turned them into religious and merged a bad thing into something good therefore chalking it up for the "good" guys...the "bad" pagans didn't snatch us...we snatched them.

They worshiped the Christmas tree...I don't I have a fake one and it is nothing but a decoration. I am sure if we researched hard enough we could find people who worship rose bushes so should I chop down mine?

Turning something bad into something good I believe is good. We should have the knowledge and not just be lead by our noses and when asked why we celebrate not just say "uuh duh...I don't know"  I celebrated because 1st I always have but 2nd I prayed and came to the conclusion that .... Christmas is not really Jesus' birthday but it is a day set aside and we can use this day to preach the good news and it will be easier accepted. 

Now back on subject...Doctrines. I do not BELIEVE in man-made doctrines but I don't DisBelieve them either. Just as Christmas isn't something I BELIEVE in it is just a day I use to worship Jesus...I BELIEVE in GOD, JESUS, THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE BIBLE.

The trinity I believe according to the Bible. Trinity is a man-made word...but the idea is from the Bible.  The doctrines may have their flaws...but God is flawless.  Through prayer God reveals Himself. I am sure many doctrines are from men inspired by God but there are too many to research and I don't take man's word for it. I have been inspired by God but I don't expect nor want for you to take my word for it but research and pray and understand through God.

Jesus was separate from God yet was God. Jesus was full of God. Jesus was begotten. Yet when Jesus was here God was still here. We understand the Holy Spirit because for those who listen and feel the Holy Spirit it is like a presence...it is a knowledge it is something I feel I can "touch". 

I have been inspired and I know the goosebumps and the feeling I feel when I truely KNOW something is right and when I truely KNOW something is wrong. Anyway, I Know I have the Holy Spirit. I also Know that others have the Holy Spirit....does that mean the Holy Spirit has left me? No, but there is only ONE Holy Spirit true?

Jesus is part of the Holy Spirit....Jesus isn't just part Jesus is Full of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what is good. By listening to the Holy Spirit we are listening to God....By following Jesus we are following God...God's will is all that is good. Jesus is God's will in Human form. The Holy Spirit is God's will in Spirit Form and God is God who no man has seen except through His only Begotten Son and the Holy Spirit.

Now what I stated made sence to me and I KNOW it to be true. But I would not make it into a doctrine because it is wordy and many would think it sounded all messed up.  I can KNOW something yet not KNOW the right wording to use.

Trinity doctrines are used to try and explain what I KNOW yet they are not always worded in a way for us to interprete them correctly. I think what is important for us to KNOW is Jesus was more than just a man...Jesus was God's begotten Son.

One of my problems with the trinity was when I believed it was ment to state that when Jesus was here He was all of God and God was not in heaven. God was in heaven still. Just as the Holy Spirit is everywhere. Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father...I really see that not just as a figure of speach.  God the Father, Jesus the Son, Holy Spirit 3 in 1....yet separate...3 for 1 purpose. I don't need the doctrine to explain it to me...I have my own words that although they may sound confusing to most they make perfect sence to me. Pray to God to understand...you may find you already do you just word it differently.

Hope I helped and didn't just confuse.

One day I'll have the right words :)

Love and God Bless,

Messenger

I came across some Bible verses in John chapter 8 I will post one.. also Isaiah 9:6 this verse was shown to me and it lead me to prayer and understanding

John 8:23

But he contined, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one, i claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

 
 
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It always comes down to the point that the word trinity is not in the bible or that people are simply confused at the word "GOD" But let's just look at what John 1:1 says
"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the Word was God."
So what's the problem... Im sure we all agree that the WORD is Jesus, therefore "Jesus (the Word) was God."
Do we believe this or do we rip that page out of the Bible?
 
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The Simpleton

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I felt inspired to comment on a few of Messengers thoughts...

Now to some people, that might just be horrible to be condemned by the Catholic Church...but to me that is silliness...only God condemns.

Hallelujah Amen! Just a quick follow up thought. I have noticed that there is an epidemic of Christians on this board who think they are doing Gods work by proclaiming that this person, that Church, or anyone with this belief or the lack of that belief is bound for Hell. "Except my belief or you will not know salvation friend". If you call them on it they will say that they are speaking the TRUTH and God commands them to do so. Brothers and Sisters, the plain truth is this….

Until you are ready to be mocked, whipped, spat on, have a bag placed over your head and repeatedly punched in the face, have a crown of long painful thorns shoved onto your head, then after all of this, forced to drag a heavy wooden cross up a hill where you will be nailed to that cross while onlookers laugh and curse you….

Until you are willing to subject yourselves to this willingly out of love, you are not fit to Judge. Jesus Christ earned the right to be our judge. No one else did. That is why God made Christ our Judge. Do not make the mistake of believing that because by the grace and mercy of our Lord and savior, our sins have been washed away, that now we are fit to Judge others. Let Christ be the Judge. Do as Christ commanded and love one another.

I have been inspired by God but I don't expect nor want for you to take my word for it but research and pray and understand through God.

Messenger, this is one of several qualities that I respect about you. It is a wonderful quality to seek the truth from God and not from men. Praise the Lord that we understand that it is possible to have an interactive relationship with God. Have you ever known Christians who look at you as if you are taking drugs when you speak of an interactive relationship with God? Some of them can do a wonderful job of reciting scripture or explaining Dogma but they look at you with confusion when you explain to them that your teacher is the Holy Spirit. Understand, I’m not Judging them, I just find it sad that they are missing this awesome experience. I think that until a Christian develops an interactive relationship with God, they will always harbor some doubts. Once you have experienced the Holy Spirit as a tangible force in your life, there are no more doubts. At that point we just know.

One day I'll have the right words

Why is it that the most eloquent writers on this forum often don’t think that they are good at explaining something? Those same ones are usually the ones who seem to resonate truth to me the most. I agree with every single thing that you wrote and I might add that you wrote it beautifully.
 
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Caedmon

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Originally posted by wannabe
son/sun

haha! :D

Show me, linguistically, and not with propaganda, how any kind of transition between these two homophones could have led to the doctrine of the Trinity.

Your ideas are a bit ridiculous. I think you need to research the NASB for yourself instead of regurgitating someone else's conspiracy theory propaganda.
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by humblejoe  
haha! :D

Show me, linguistically, and not with propaganda, how any kind of transition between these two homophones could have led to the doctrine of the Trinity.

Your ideas are a bit ridiculous. I think you need to research the NASB for yourself instead of regurgitating someone else's conspiracy theory propaganda.

And continuing Joe's thought. It was not until  1611, the KJV, that the words sun and son sounded alike, in the Bible. In Greek son is uious/Huios and sun is hlios/"haelios" and in Latin son is "Filii" and sun is "sol." So when all this alleged sun worshipping was supposed to be going on and "evil" Constantine, etc., etc., etc., was allegedly corrupting the Bible to make it honor the pagan sun god, the words did not sound or look alike.


Anyone want to argue that the King James translators were pagan sun worshippers?
All these anti-Christian pagan origins theories, etc. are from the sacred name movement. 

Oh BTW the Trinity originated within pre-Christian Judaism not paganism. There were no trinities, in any pagan religion which could have influenced Christianity. None, nada, zilch! And most of the so-called Triads, three separate gods ruling, etc., are figments of the imagination of the cults disseminating the info.
 
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OldShepherd

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"The Cabala, on the other hand, especially the Zohar, its fundamental work, was far less hostile to the dogma of the Trinity, since by its speculations regarding the father, the son, and the spirit it evolved a new trinity, and thus became dangerous to Judaism. Such terms as 'matronita, 'body', 'spirit' occur frequently (e.g. ‘Tazria,’ ed. Polna iii, 43b); so that Christians and converts like Knorr von Rosenroth, Reuchlin, and Rittangel found in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially the dogma of the Trinity (Jellinck, ‘Die Kabbalah’ p. 250, Leipsic, 1844 {transl. of Franck’s ‘La Kabbale,’ Paris 1843}) Reuchlin sought on the basis of the Cabala the words ‘Father, Son, and Holy Ghost’ in the second word in the Pentateuch, as well as in Ps. cxviii, 22 (ib. p. 10) while Johann Kemper, a convert , left in manuscript a work entitled ‘Matteh Mosheh,’ which treats in its third section of the harmony of the Zohar with its doctrine of the Trinity (Zettersteen, ‘Verzeichniss der Hebraeischen und Armamaeischen Handschriften zu Upsala.’ P. 16, Lund, 1900). The study of the Cabala led the Frankists to adopt Christianity, but the Jews have always regarded the doctrine of the Trinity as one irreconcilable with the spirit of the Jewish religion and its monotheism."

Isadore Singer ed., The Jewish Encyclopedia, KTAV Publishing, 1901, vol. 12, p. 261.
 
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wannabe

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Apparantly, people who are now saying "the sacred name movement" is trying to convince people another "religion" is being created. What christians DO NOT understand is that YAHWEH and our Savior Yahshua Mashiyah is not part of any religion! Religion was started by man! That's how things are so twisted up today like they are. People are reading Bibles today that removed YAHWEH's and Yahshua Mashiyah's name and replaced them with rediculious "blasphemous titles" that even christians HAVE NO CLUE WHO THEY ARE CALLING ON PERIOD!! Why do you think all these crazy different doctrines are still being undecided on today?!
The painful FACT is the GREEKS with all of their crazy man made "gods" corrupted YAHWEH's Scroll's which christians are calling the Greek word "Bible". The Greeks associated everyone elses "Deity with their all popular "Zeus" Do you honestly believe they respected YAHWEH when the GREEKS WERE WORSHIPING ZEUS? And they recopied the Scrolls? They hated the Jews? or their way of worship? People still think the tetragrammaton of our Creator (here once again another greek word "tetragrammaton" meaning 4 letters") (YHWH) MOST CHRISTIANS DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT IS!! Some christians are "purposely taught" his name is "unpronounceable". If his name was "unpronouncable" than the WHOLE OLD TESTAMENT would have been "UNtranslateable"! Now does that sound reasonable? The Creator who inspired the writings and COMMANDS His people to call on His name is not going to let us figure out how to pronounce it?
What is even more sad is to know that the name 6billion christians are worshiping as "Jesus Christ" HAVE NO CLUE this name (once again from the Greeks) is the name
IESOUS CHRISTOS! This name can be traced back to Greek worship and NOT to Yahshua Mashiyah and yet christians "blindly" walk with their "belief" within the "Greeks" not YAHWEH.

Shalom
 
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Caedmon

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wannabe, that's quite the little lyrical diddy you spin with all the pseudo-linguistics and conspiracy driven propagandistic dogma, but sadly, it has no substantial scholarly merit. And may I request you cite some qualified sources?

However, I do give "kudos" to the precarious gymnastics; it must have taken whoever did it a very long time and lots of carefully bottled-up antagonism to manufacture it.
 
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wannabe

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For starters Humble Joe, you can look at "Worterbuch der Antike" and the "Greek-English Lexicon of Liddel and Scott" also the book "Reallexicon der Agpyptischen Religionsgeschichte"

For title corruption you can check out "Encyclopedia Judaica" Vol7
"The Anchor Bible Dictionary" under "Gad"

"Encyclopedia Brittanicca" 11th Edition "God"

"Webster's New World Dictionary" under "Lord"

also, you can type in "Iesous Christos" in your google search engine.

-shalom
 
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wannabe

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Hi Humble Joe, I went out of my way to find some more that Iv'e kept from research from the Library

KJV Bible "troop" translate from the word "Gad", which is an euphemism for God, as Websters Deluxe Unabridged Dictionary, Second Edition, page 746 indicates.

You will discover that The Host of Heaven that YAHWEH condemned our Fathers from turning to was GAD, or the english equivalent, GOD. (Isa 65:11)

MOST PEOPLE PRAY TO THE LORD,
Who is Baal? Here is one example:
Unger's Bible Dictionary, MerrilF, Unger, Moody Press, Chicago, Il. pg 413: Baal: common canaanite word for "MASTER, LORD" was one of the chief male deities of the canaanite pantheon.

Ungers Bible Dictionary pg 112 Baal: Avery common name for God among the phonecians....name of the chief male god!

Many people know that Baal is none other than Baalzebul, Beelzebub, SATAN!
Can't anyone out there see the harm in praying to titles?

Rev 12:9 "Satan, who deceives the whole world"

-shalom
 
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