• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Trinity: Biblical teaching or Pagan doctrine?

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by franklin, May 23, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    Ausgezeichnet, wannabe! Ich versuche, einige jener Bücher zu lesen. Ich habe nicht die meisten ihnen gelesen. Ich liebe deutsche Linguistik. Und Sie?
  2. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    Ultimate, this is one of the most popular proof texts most trinitarian defenders use for their support that Jesus is God..
    the most common mistake is to make it refer back to Genesis 1:1 when actually it is referring to the beginning of Jesus' ministry, let's look at another one of the Apostle John's writings in 1John1:1-3:
    "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."

    Also compare the above with other passages:

    Mark 1:1, "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;"
    Luke 1:2, "Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;"

    Acts 1:21-22, "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

    Notice that John 1, Mark 1, Acts 1, and 1 John 1 are talking about the disciples' witness of John the Baptist, the beginning of Jesus' ministry and preaching about the kingdom of God being at hand.
    People see "in the beginning" and they think that it must refer to Genesis 1:1 because of the "light" and "darkness" and "all things" language in the subsequent verses. However, I think the whole passage should be understood to be comparing the "new covenant" that Jesus "created" when he appeared and fulfilled the scripture.
  3. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    Well see, this is the thing. To me, and millions of other English-speaking Christians around the world, it really doesn't matter. When I pray to my Lord, Jesus Christ, I know who I'm praying to. I'm not praying to some construction of the English language. I'm praying to God, Yahweh, Moshiach, whatever.

    The other thing is, God doesn't care either. He knows who I am, and who I'm speaking to. I don't pray to Satan, or Baal, or Beelzebub, or an indeterminant "lord". I am praying to God, not Zeus. Yes, yes, I know that egad came from the anglicized Greek reference of "ye gods". The fact is, it doesn't matter if I call him Father, Lord, Daddy, PawPaw, or Pappy, God knows that I'm talking to Him! I don't worship any word/aspect of the English language, or any other language for that matter. If you think that God is restricted to a word in ancient Hebrew that half the world's English-speaking Christians don't know about, I'm afraid you're wrong. It doesn't matter if the word had another meaning in some foreign place, at some time long, long ago. It's what's in the heart that matters, the circumcision of the heart.

    *sigh* Ok, I can appreciate your position. I somewhat understand why you're so upset. But what you've observed is something that you, and only a very small minority of linguistics researchers know about; and it's an even smaller percentage that finds anglicized terms for Yahweh offensive. It is not common knowledge to the average English-speaking Christian, and they should not be held to such a linguistic standard! In their hearts, their not calling on idols; in their hearts, they're calling on God. This all basically boils down to -- as Brimshack might put it -- a conflict of meaning. One person comes at another with what he believes to be conflicting concepts, and then he finds out the other person uses a different paradigm, which obscures their abilities to see that they both, essentially, observe the same thing, although they both appear to be discussing completely different viewpoints.
  4. wannabe

    wannabe Member

    Humble Joe, your logic is, well, WRONG. You sound pretty intelligent knowing the origin of "Gad" (transliterated God) so you should know that when people are calling on "Gad" they are calling on a deity YAHWEH condemned!! (Isa. 65:11)

    You see Humble Joe, you and many other christians can put in your mind as much as you like it is "ok" to call on a Greco-Latin man made name "Ie'sous Christos" and insult YAHWEH by doing so but the FACT is He COMMANDS us to call on His personal Covenant name (Exodus 23:13)

    His name (YAHWEH) represents Him and His truths. No other name, title, designation does that. We cannot say we know who He is and claim to cherish Him according to that knowledge if we are using "generic titles" and "man made" names. Through the prophet Isaiah He said, "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that does speak: behold it is I" (Isa 52:6)

    "Pour out your wrath upon the heathen that have not known you, and upon the kingdoms that have NOT CALLED UPON YOUR NAME" (Ps.79:6)

    "Pour out your fury upon the heathen that know you not, and upon the families that call NOT ON YOUR NAME..." (Jer. 10:25)

    "He that believes on Him is NOT condemned: but he that believes not is CONDEMNED already, because he has not believed IN THE NAME of the ONLY begotten son of YAHWEH" (John 3:18)

    *Take note "John" is a false name from the Greeks that they replaced with "YAHanan". Most of the "family names in the Bible has the short form of YAHWEH's name in them "YAH" until the GREEKS removed them!!) Another example: YermeYAH (Jeremiah)

    Christian's WAKE UP! Our Savior was given only ONE name by His Father YAHWEH in Hebrew "Yahshua MashiYAH" which we can be saved! I don't think YAHWEH is playing with us with all these man made names and generic titles and doctrines, in Revelation YAHWEH speaks of only a few men left, THAT's IT!

  5. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

    Hmm must have been Satan answering all my prayers then since "YAHWEH" wouldn't know I was talking to him when using the term God, or sometimes Jesus or Holy Spirit. Those passages talk about knowing God, not having to know the term "YAHWEH".
  6. wannabe

    wannabe Member

    Project 86, Satan is going to please anyone he can to keep them from the truth. That is satan's goal to see as many humans mislead and deceived when the time comes for him and his evil malaks(angels) to be destroyed. Satans goal was to get humans to worship him! Do you think we are smarter than satan?? Why do you think most movie stars are mislead into the church of scientology? Man, they live a real good life!! Do you believe in the church of scientology? What about Jehovah's Witnesses? They are real nice people and they live a peaceful life. And yet they don't even realize the name "hovah" in Hebrew means: very wickid, ruin, destroy!! Well now, guess who is responsible for giving them this "false sense" of peace? My life was going pleasant until everytime the 3rd commandment and Psalm 74:10 kept repeating over and over in my head then I would research these two things and WHAM! My life started to become hell. I was having nightmares, seeing shadows in my room, and my family started hearing people talking in the house when no one was home. My outside life was becoming garbage. Well what happened? I discovered YAHWEH and Yahshua' name was removed as well as "blasphemous titles" that's in Revelation are the very titles that man (satan influenced) replaced YAHWEH's and Yahshua's name. These titles CAN ALL BE TRACED BACK TO THE BAALIM WORSHIP PERIOD!! Satan and his buddies are really [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ed off at me and a few others out there that are finding this out and my life will be difficult. YAHWEH already knows this and thats why he sends rescuers (MalakYAH) to help us.

    Rev 12:9 "Satan, who had led ALL the world astay"

  7. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    LOL! :D I learned that in 10th grade.

    But you who forsake the LORD, who forget my holy mountain, who set a table for Fortune, and who fill cups with mixed wine for Destiny, I will destine you for the sword, and all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight." - Isaiah 65:11, NASB

    Hmmm... doesn't say anything about what to address Him as, just to make sure you don't do "evil in My[God's] sight".

    Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth. - Exodus 23:13, NASB

    I'll make sure not to worship Baal or Zeus.

    Therefore My people shall know My name; therefore in that day I am the one who is speaking, 'Here I am.' - Isaiah 52:6, NASB

    I will not say God, Lord, Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Abba, etc. in vain. And I will know God by my regenerated status and association with Him through spiritual adoption.

    Pour out Your wrath upon the nations which do not know You, and upon the kingdoms which do not call upon Your name. - Psalm 79:6, NASB

    I will make sure to continue my prayer life as I have done up to this point.

    Pour out Your wrath on the nations that do not know You and on the families that do not call Your name; for they have devoured Jacob; they have devoured him and consumed him and have laid waste his habitation. - Jeremiah 10:25, NASB

    I will raise my family in Christian love, teaching them to worship and pray to God on a daily basis.

    He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3:18, NASB

    I'll strive daily to believe in and trust God. BTW... only one New Testament reference??? :confused:

    So what are you saying wannabe? Are you saying that since I don't use Yahweh in my prayers, I am going to Hell?
  8. wannabe

    wannabe Member

    Now Humble Joe, Lets read a more accurate version from Isaiah 65:11 that has the original Hebrew words where they count the most! By the way if you study your bible history you will discover "Isaiah" was put there by the Greeks and is originally "YAHshaYAH" which means: YAHWEH is rescue!! But I don't expect you to "understand" the harm done here by the Greeks.

    YAHshaYAH (Isaiah) 65:11 " But as for those of you who abandon YAHWEH, who forget my holy mountain, who lay the table for Gad (God), who fill cups of mixed wine for Meni (God of fate), you I shall destine to the sword and all of you will stoop to be slaughtered, because I called and you would not answer, I spoke and you would not listen; you have done what I consider evil..."
    -New Jerusalem Bible

    Now HumbleJoe, carries a different meaning doesn't it? How can one worship Gad (God) and at the same time YAHWEH speaks of condemning them? hmmm.

    If you look at "LORD" and "troop" you will see it was ignorantly placed by the "false pen of the scibes" and a "blaspemous title" over YAHWEH's name. Why? BECAUSE KNOW ONE HAS A CLUE WHAT IT REALLY MEANS!!

  9. wannabe

    wannabe Member

    You know humbleJoe, I get on this forum thinking I can share some knowledge and experience that I have gained or encountered in my life only to have you mock me. If you don't like what you read when someone writes something that has happened in their life, you don't need to write a smart remark about it.

  10. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    I apologize brother, that was uncalled for. I've deleted the post. ;)
  11. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    But I'm not worshipping Gad, the god of fortune, or Meni, the god of fate. I'm worshipping God, Yahweh.

    "Then why not just call him Yahweh?"

    Because to me, God means the same thing as Yahweh. To me, it doesn't matter.
  12. wannabe

    wannabe Member

    Thanks for the apology humbleJoe, it takes a very kind hearted person to apologize to a stranger. Sometimes though, I do forget how "strange" my real life stories may come across.

  13. wannabe

    wannabe Member

    Humble Joe, to you it doesn't matter if you mix a pagan title with YAHWEH's name but to Him it does. Why? Because "God is the very deity that was popular omong the canaanites, by apostate Jews which was a deity of fortune (money, notice "in God we trust" is on our money) The place named "Baal Gad" (Josh11:17) could be inerpretated as "Lord Gad" or as involving an epithet (gad) joined to the divine name "Baal". The heathen nations that Joshua was DIRECTED to destroy had a place called "BAAL GAD", which is none other than "LORD GOD" and the worship of this deity BY THOSE WHO FORSAKE YAHWEH!!

    CHRISTIANS DO NOT LIKE TO HEAR THIS! If you call on God, you are calling on Gad and this is the very deity our Creator YAHWEH was destroying people for worshiping!

    What do you not understand? What is so difficult? Even our model prayer instructs us to only use "Father" and thats it!

    Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name. WHAT NAME??


    May YAHWEH "lift the veil" :cool:
  14. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    Below are small quotes from a few websites ALL refuting the nonsense propagated by sacred name CULTS such as the information being posted by Wannabe.

    As I said these are only short quotes to read the entire article click on the link following each one.

    <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

    The "Baal Gad" Scam
    by Glen Penton

    “Ba'al is also an ordinary common noun in Hebrew, a synonym of adon, but with a wider range of meanings. It may mean 'lord', 'master', 'owner', 'possessor', 'husband', or 'tyrant'. When used as a verb, it may mean 'he married', 'he ruled', or 'he rejected'.

    Ba'al seems generally to have harsher connotations than either adon or ish (another Hebrew word that can mean husband. I can think of one time when the Holy Spirit used Ba'al as a title for God. (Isaiah 54:5, "Your Makers is your Husbands (=ba'als, Heb. "Vo'alayikh")." (Interesting and unusual use of plurals here. As a proper noun, Ba'al is also the name of a Canaanite god.
    Gad is another ordinary common noun in Hebrew. It means 'good luck'. We all want as much of it as we can get. So it is not surprising that it became a proper noun, the name of some people, a tribe of Israel, and a god. The god Gad was not ordinarily identified with Baal. But the identities of ancient Mediterranean gods were quite fluid, so it wouldn't be surprising if the two deities were identified with each other somewhere at some time.”


    Hebrew … Hebrew only!

    Which name is it? Choose one, but you better be absolutely right. Is it -Yeshua, Yesha, Yeshuah, Yehshua, Yehshuah, YESHUAH, YEHSHUAH, YAHUSUHWA, YAHOOSHUA ,YHWHSOSANA, Yeshouah, Y'shua, Y'shuah, Yeshu, Yashua, Yashuah, Yahshua, Yehoshua, Yehooshuah, YHVHShua, YHVHShuah, Yhvhshua, Yhwhshua, Iahoshua, Iahoshuah, Iahushua, or Iahushuah YHWHShua, YHWHShuah, Yhvhshuah, Yhwhshuah, Yahvehshua, Yahwehshua, Yahvehshuah, Yahwehshuah, Yahushuah, Yaohushua, Yaohushuah? Or any other name one might add to the list since this is not current. I ASK you. Y do they all discover different names for the same Elohim of Scripture? And who is right?

    The main reason they are wrong is because no one knows how to correctly pronounce his name, this is why sacred name groups come to different conclusions and cannot agree among themselves. So if Jesus name is wrong so is theirs! Remember you have to be exact. Yahweh is from the Hebrew old Testament, the New Testament is in the Greek. Yashua is spelt in English. In the Hebrew there is no English letter Y, it is a yod that is a sound of a Y. If your going to make an issue of pronouncing it right then it needs to be written in Hebrew as well. It should not only be the correct pronunciation but written the way it was given. That is logical end of the correct name. Sacred name adherents must REJECT their English spelling of the SACRED NAME in their own Bibles, since YHWH is NOT in the Hebrew but written in English. The sacred name groups use the prophet's, OT characters and apostles names in Hebrew as well, but they are written in English. Why do they concentrate on only the names pronounced in the Hebrew but not the words they wrote?

    What this movement is doing is demanding Christianity to adopt a name unfamiliar to their spoken language, and culture. They are denying emphatically that the savior could be known to all by His claims, His person, and His word. But can only be known by a special knowledge -their INSPIRED pronunciation of the name. (Depending whatever group you are in). They are insisting that the person of Jesus we know is false and a myth because of the name not being pronounced in their correct Hebrew language. Imagine you’re in a place on far away from civilization or on a deserted Island. All you have is a Bible in your language. But you don’t have a sacred name Bible. You can’t know Jesus or understand what he is saying because you don’t have the correct pronunciation for him, so he cannot answer your call to be saved. So too bad your out of His divine providence to be saved, you can’t say the correct name at the time until you know it. The problem is NO matter which name you say you, will be found guilty by some other sacred name group for not using their interpretation of the name. So who is the ultimate representative and judge for them?


    Home page


    As with any religious movement, the Sacred Name Movement has its prominent identification mark. With extreme emphasis, SN teachers demand that their members pronounce the Hebrew name of God. Because of this emphasis, they call themselves the "Sacred Name " Movement.
    God's name, given at the beginning of the Old Covenant to Moses at the burning bush, is written, hwhy, in the most ancient Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts and inscriptions. At that time and for many centuries afterward the Hebrew alphabet was made up only of consonants. Therefore, these four letters are consonants.

    This word is called "the tetragrammaton" (word of four letters) by language specialists. Depending on which scholar you consult, it is transliterated into English either as YHWH or as YHVH. This divergence of transliterations is only the beginning of the confusion and inconsistencies of the Sacred Name teachers. That confusion is exacerbated by the fact that the pronunciation of the Name was lost in antiquity.

    Sacred Name teachers are not only confused, they are also confusing. As a group, they are confused. The spelling and pronunciation of the Name used by one group will differ greatly from that used by another group. Some call him Yahweh, some Yaohu, some Yahuwah, and other names. These different spellings and pronunciations are, in truth, different names. Therefore, among the SN movement members there are many different Names, each Sacred to its users. Each user is convinced that his particular spelling is the true Name.
    They are confused as individuals. A person using a particular spelling and pronunciation today will be using a completely different spelling and pronunciation next week or next year. Though not at all unusual, this latter confusion is ironically exemplified by the booklet What is the Inspired Hebrew Name of the Saviour?, John C. Green, Keys to Understanding, 1983.


    Many Sacred Name Movement people believe and openly propagate the myth that the name of Jesus is in some way connected with or derived etymologically from the name Zeus. Some believe it, but know it cannot be substantiated by research and are silent about it. The more knowledgeable people within the movement openly deny the truth of it. Some of these seem to want to pretend the myth was never taught by the early movers and shakers of the movement and is not now being taught within the movement. These certainly resent it being brought up and talked about by one outside the movement.

  15. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah


    A little research will inform us as to the derivation of the name of Jesus. Dictionaries will help those with a willingness to learn. These kinds of books are at hand for most people. There is no excuse. There is absolutely no excuse for the continued propagation of this lie.
    We can research the Old Testament, apocryphal writings, the New Testament, and secular writings from the period of time relevant to our study.


    Dictionary entry for Jesus:
    “ME. [a. L. Iesus, a. Gr. '&#61513;&#61544;&#61555;&#61551;&#61557;&#61526;, ad. late Heb. or Aramaic Jeshua, for earlier Jehoshua or Joshua (explained as ‘Jah (or Jahveh) is salvation’), a frequent Jewish personal name.”
    William Little, et al., eds. , The Oxford Universal Dictionary on Historical Principals,
    (London: Oxford University Press, 1955).

    Here, the English Jesus can be seen to have derived from the Latin, Iesus. Iesus then, is from the Greek &#61513;&#61544;&#61555;&#61551;&#61557;&#61526;, which is in turn from the late Hebrew or Aramaic Jeshua. Jeshua was derived from the earlier Hebrew Jehoshua - our English Joshua.


    From The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible, entry Jesus:
    “(je’zus) [Lat. From Gr. Iesous, which is for Heb. Jeshua, a late form of Jehoshua or Joshua...]”
    John D. Davis, The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible, (Philadelphia, The Westminster Press, 1944).

    The average Sacred Name teacher can quote nine kinds of research attempting to prove his doctrine. Why can they not simply read the dictionary about the derivation of the name of Jesus. It is not derived from the word Zeus.


    In view of the fact that The New Testament was not written in either Hebrew or Aramaic, no ancient New Testament manuscripts in these languages exist. Sacred Name teachers are therefore compelled to go to the Old Testament in an attempt to recover a Hebrew name which our Savior might have been called. They go, of course, to the name of Joshua.

    Disregarding the approximately four hundred year gap between the writing of the last book of the O.T. and the birth of the Messiah these teachers expect us to believe that the Hebrew spelling and pronunciation of the name of Joshua remained static during these years. None care to address the three spellings and pronunciations for Joshua’s name during the time of the O.T.
    There are three different spellings for the name Joshua in the Old Testament. Yeshua in both early Aramaic and modern Hebrew is iwhy.The spellings for this name evolved, along with the Hebrew language, over a period of about one thousand years, the time of the writing of the Old Testament.

    The variations in spelling the name of Joshua have come down to us in square Hebrew letters. The square Hebrew letters are in truth the Aramaic alphabet. This is much like the English alphabet which is simply the Roman alphabet with slight variations. The Jews forsook their own alphabet and began to use the Aramaic after the Babylonian captivity.

    The spellings are written iwvhy, iwhy, and ivwvhy. Scriptural references for these three biblical ways for spelling and pronouncing the name of Joshua the son of Nun are:

    * Nehemiah 8:17 iwhy
    * Numbers 13: 16 iwvhy
    * Judges 2: 7 ivwvhy

    It would be a good idea, for anyone sufficiently interested, to check the Hebrew text of the O.T. for these references. It is not commonly acknowledged among Sacred Name Movement folks that there are three spellings for Joshua's name. The reason for this is that for the Messiah's name, many of them arbitrarily pick one spelling and pronunciation at the exclusion of the other two.


    Perhaps, the first recorded use of the Greek name Jesus, &#61513;&#61544;&#61555;&#61551;&#61557;&#61526;, among the Jewish people is a transliteration for the Hebrew name iwvhy - Joshua - is in the Septuagint. The Septuagint is sometimes referred to as the LXX. This translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek began about 270 B. C. E. and continued for some years afterward. When the Hebrew name is in the text, without fail, it is transliterated into Greek as &#61513;&#61544;&#61555;&#61551;&#61557;&#61526;, Jesus.

    The question SN teachers, who propagate this Jesus=Zeus lie, need to address is how and why Jewish scholars would have chosen a word which means son of Zeus to put for the name of the great hero of their past.

    These Rabbis did not make the name of that great Israelite hero into the Son of Zeus, Healing Zeus, and certainly not Ie-Zeus. This seems obvious to everyone except the SN people who still propagate this lie. Many of them have given it up. More will do so.

    The apocryphal book of Ecclesiasticus, also called The Wisdom of Jesus the son of Sirach, was likely written early in the third century B. C. E. Originally written in Hebrew by one Joshua son of Sirach, it was translated into Greek about 132 B.C.E.
    Read this short passage from the introduction written by Joshua’s grandson who translated the work into Greek.

    “ Anyone who values learning should be able to help others by what he himself says and writes. That is why my grandfather Jesus devoted himself to reading the Law, the Prophets, and the other books of our ancestors.”

    The grandfather's name is iwvhy, Joshua. His grandson translated the book into Greek, the language which many of the Jews learned from childhood. At the same time, he transliterated the name of his grandfather into Greek as &#61513;&#61544;&#61555;&#61551;&#61557;&#61526;, Jesus. It should be understood that at this time in history, not all Jews spoke Hebrew. Perhaps it would be well to read from Acts chapter two.

    Acts 2:5. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7. And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileeans? 8. And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11. Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
    As today, so also in that day, not all Jews speak Hebrew. As a matter of fact most Jews do no t speak Hebrew. Hebrew was not the tongue of the Jews of the diaspora. Hebrew was not the language of the Jews of Judea. It had ceased to be so many years before Joshua, son of Sirach, wrote his book of wisdom. Therefore, his grandson saw the need to translate his work into Greek. The Hebrew Old Testament had already been translated into Greek for the same reason.

    Sacred Name folks who still cling to the Jesus = Zeus doctrine, expect us to believe that the translator chose a Greek word meaning Son of Zeus and used it for his grandfather's name.
    That anyone should believe such nonsense, is absurd and simply not the case. He actually transliterated the Hebrew name quite well. It has been used for centuries since.

    [NOTE: To translate means to bring, as nearly as possibly, the meaning of a word from one language to another. An example is the Greek word &#61538;&#61537;&#61548;&#61548;&#61559;, ballo. The English translation of this word is THROW.

    To transliterate means to bring, as nearly as possibly, the sound of a word from one language to another. For instance, the English word BAPTIZE is a transliteration of the Greek word &#61538;&#61537;&#61552;&#61556;&#61545;&#61562;&#61559;, baptizo. (The translation would be immerse.) So that in the new language the word sounds the same or nearly the same.]

    An interesting observation is that while SN people are quick to inform us that they do not believe in an inspired translation of the Bible, they certainly do believe in inspired transliterations of the sacred names. These, of course, are always their own transliterations and ones sanctioned by them.


    Our Savior's name was given from heaven some four to eight years B.C.E. It seems obvious that he was given the same name as was born by the great leader of Israel, Joshua he son of Nun. We do not know and cannot know how his name was written or spoken in Hebrew. The name may never have been written in Hebrew at all, but in Aramaic.

    However, even if his name were written in Hebrew or Aramaic, we have no record of it. Sacred Name teachers tell us that his name had to have been spoken in Hebrew. More likely it was Aramaic. Whether one or the other, there is still no record of it.
    We do have the historical record. It is the New Testament. In every case where the writers of this book transliterated the Messiah's name into Greek they chose &#61513;&#61544;&#61555;&#61551;&#61557;&#61526;, Jesus, as the correct transliteration.

    When Jesus was born into the mixed Hebrew, Greek, and Roman culture of Judea and Galilee, it was already known how his name should be transliterated into Greek. That had been settled about three hundred years before. That Jesus lived in a mixed culture is shown, among other things, by the sign above him at his death. It was in three languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. Bear in mind that Galilee, because of Gentile (Greek) dominance, is called in Scripture, Galilee of the Gentiles. The area had been under Greek domination since Alexander the Great, centuries before Jesus was born.

    The transliteration of iwvhy (or whatever spelling of the Messiah's name may have been used at that time), made by the apostles and apostolic men when they wrote the New Testament, is &#61513;&#61544;&#61555;&#61551;&#61557;&#61526;, Jesus. No Healing Zeus. No son of Zeus. No Ie-Zeus. Just Jesus.

    Here is a question for all of us. Will we trust the transliteration done by SN teachers or will we trust the transliteration done by the men who wrote the New Testament? I believe I will hold to the New Testament book and its writers. One is able to see that on this point as well as numerous others, Sacred Name teachers are left in a position of shame.


    The transliteration of the Hebrew and Aramaic name of Joshua the son of Nun into Greek as &#61513;&#61544;&#61555;&#61551;&#61557;&#61526;during the time both before and after the Savior lived is attested to by manuscript evidence. These are available for study at any major university library. In these also we can find no Zeus connection in the name of Jesus.

    Might I suggest one manuscript for consideration. It is 5/6 Hever Babatha Archive, Greek Document 2 (5/6 HevBA 2).
    A copy of the manuscript on film, with all its tears, damage, and other imperfections, can be found in The E. L Sukenik Memorial Volume (1889 - 1953), editors N. Avigad, et. al., Israel Exploration Society, Jerusalem, 1976.

    A non manuscript copy set in modern type (it is easier to read) can be seen in the book, Eretz-Israel, Archaeological, Historical and Geographical Studies, Volume Eight, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, The Shrine of The Book, et. al., pg. 50. This copy has both the Aramaic and Greek texts.

    Another copy in modern type is on page 162 of A Manual of Palestinian Aramaic Texts, (Second Century B. C. --- Second Century A. D.), ed. Joseph A Fitzmyer, S.J., et. al., Biblical Institute Press, Rome, 1978. This copy has only the Aramaic section, lines 11, 12, and 13. It has a nice English translation on the facing page.

    This interesting if somewhat unusual manuscript was found at Nahel Hever. It certainly is poignant to our discussion of the transliteration of our Saviors name into Greek in the first and second centuries of the common era.

    The document bears the date August 19, A. D. 132. It is a receipt given by Babatha to the Jewish guardian of her son for payment of six denarii for food and clothing for her son, Jesus. It is written in both Aramaic and Greek.

    On line 12, in the Aramaic portion, twice repeated is the boy's name, iwhy. This is the shortened form of the name commonly used during this period. On line 16 of the Greek portion, is the transliteration, &#61513;&#61544;&#61555;&#61551;&#61557;&#61526;. In secular documents, the name Jesus is the transliteration for the name Joshua.

  16. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

    Boy, this is all so interesting and yet so confusing...just when you think you got God just about figured out someone has to come along with more information...and then you can't just say okay I will call God by the name they told us and Jesus by the name they said because who knows they may be Satan's helpers on the internet trying to deceive us further so you have to examine it for yourself but you can't just take one source you have to use many and say prayers and have to be convienced by the Holy Spirit to change and you have to be certain within your own heart and soul that it is the Holy Spirit and not Satan deceiving you.

    I am glad that my gift is Simplicity of Life....Loving and sharing and being good and thankful in all things. I continue to learn from each and everyone of you but boy is it time consuming. For now when I pray I say Father, God, and Jesus and I pray for Satan to stay away from me and for God to guide me. I am learning that I will NEVER come close to figuring it all out but each day I get a little more knowledge and a little more love and that makes for a grand day. :)

    Thanks to all for there time and knowledge...For now I'm sticking with God...That has never let me down.

    Love and God Bless EVERYONE!
  17. wannabe

    wannabe Member

    Let me confirm, YAHWEH has nothing to do with "religion" a GREEK word from "religio".

    Do christians honestly believe names get translated?
    When it come to our Creator and Rescuer (falsely called savior from the Greeks)?

    We have our Hebrew Rescuer "Yahshua Mashiyah"

    Then there is the Greek healer "Iesous Christos" (From the Greek healer "Ieso")

    Does anyone see a "connection" in these two names?

    The 10 commandments were written on Stone by our Creator given to Mosheh (who we call Moses) for a good reason. Why?
    Because humans could not "alter" the original copy of the commandments if they were in stone. Were the commandments "vocalized" properly? Of course. Was the Creators name written within those commandments that He wanted us to know and not bring to ruin? Yes it was. Are we to believe the WHOLE OLD TESTAMENT was "translated" AND YET the Author of the "Bible" and "life" is to be "unpronounceable"? Are we fools? Did the Greeks care for the Jews any? What about the Romans with all their power? Did they care? What do you think? History can't lie.

    Does History show the vocalization of "God" came from "Gad"? Yes it does. Do the scriptures show YAHWEH condemning people for worshiping this "popular deity of fortune" and forgetting about His Covenant name? Yes they do.

    You can research and find out that the hebrew alphabet contained letters in it that carried a "vowel" sound when words were spoken and that the Creator spelled His name with 3 of 4 of those letters that the Hebrew knew how to "vocalize" (Yoth,Hay,Waw,Hay; YAHWEH) How do you think the whole Old Testament was able to be copied??

    You are either for YAHWEH and our Rescuer or you're for the way of the Greeks.
    *Take note of the "great whore" with "blasphemous titles" in Revelation" What titles do you think YAHWEH is speaking of?
    The Greeks slipped up.

  18. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    First let me note that you did not address any of the material I posted. There are pages upon pages of documented refutation of sacred name allegations at the links I posted.

    Second, I searched for evidence of your claims. Here is all I could find, many sacred name web sites cite this as proof of their claims.

    How’s that for proof? “Possibly”, an Ionic Greek form that does not exist. “probably”, “If the above is true.” ”long lost form” (Yeah, so lost that nobody ever heard of it until sacred namers invented it.) “must have been.”

    Now lets take a look at evidence from the other side. Here is a short quote. The entire article is quoted below. Note, particularly the many references to scholarly sources.

  19. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    Note, this is only part of a much longer article. There are three sections of it on this page, and 27 sections preceding. And as I stated note the many scholarly references and citations.


    Other "names" profaned?
    28. Some say that all the "other" names for God have been "profaned" among the nations. They base this on Eze. 36:22-23.

    However, in verse 20, God explains exactly how his name is "profaned".
    "And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the Lord, and are gone forth out of his land." (Eze. 36:20).

    In other words, Israel (verse 17) "profaned God's name" by claiming to be the "people of the Lord". They were "bearing" God's name in vain. (See "The Third Commandment" elsewhere in this article and Ex. 20:7.)

    "But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Isra-el had profaned among the heathen, whither they went." (verse 21).

    "Lord" in verse 20, is Strong's #3068, "yhwh", or according to pro-names individuals, "Yahweh". God says in Eze. 36:21-23, his "name" has been "profaned". Therefore, according to this "names" argument, we shouldn't use "Yahweh" either.
    On the other hand, if "name" in verse 20 is God's reference to the word "Isra-el" in verse 21, then "el" is a "name", according to God.

    From a lengthy article titled, "Biblical Beginnings in Canaan, The Mighty Bronze Age Empire" which discusses the Canaanite god "El", we find the following quotations:

    "The Canaanites evidently knew nothing of the elaborate pantheon and cosmogony of the Mesopotamians, which probably reflects the relative simplicity of their lives. Their interest was to correlate and explain the various forces of nature and society in all the complexity of harmony and tension, but to declare their dependence on the gods and to placate them" "Corresponding to Anu in Mesopotamia, the king paramount in the celestial court was El ('God'), who give his sanction to all decisions among the gods affecting nature and society.

    He is father of the divine family and president of the divine assembly on the 'mount of assembly', the equivalent of Hebrew har mo'ed, which became through the Greek transliteration Armageddon. In Canaanite mythology he is known as 'the Bull', symbolizing his strength and creative force, and is probably represented in the elderly god who is blessing a worshipper on a limestone sculpture from Ras Shara. In the myths he is termed bny bnwt, which might mean 'Creator of Created Things', but which we take to mean 'Giver of Potency', according to his role in two royal legends from Ras Shamra, but he is generally depicted as sitting aloof and indeed remote, enthroned at 'the outflowing of the (two) streams'. This recalls the Biblical Garden of Eden, from which a river flowed to form the four rivers, Tigris, Euphrates, Gihon and Pishon." ---- John Gray, Near Eastern Mythology

    El "was known as the Creator God, the Kindly One, the Compassionate One. He expressed the
    concept of ordered government and social justice. It is noteworthy that the Bible never stigmatizes the Canaanite worship of El, whose authority in social affairs was recognized by the Patriarchs. His consort was Asherah, the mother goddess, represented in Canaanite sanctuaries by a natural or stylized tree (Hebrew ashera)". - Magnus Magnusson, BC - The Archaeology of the Bible Lands

    "In Canaan, the king "is described as 'the Servant of El', as King David was 'the Servant of God'. This describes the status of the king as the executive of the will of the divine king. This duty is understood to be a privilege as well as a burden." - John Gray, Near Eastern Mythology
    "All names like Ishmael, Michael and Israel are theophoric in form - that is to say, the suffix element (-ilu or -el) represents a divine name, in this case the paramount god El. But during the reign of Ebrum, Dr Pettinato noted a change in the theophoric element, from -el to -ya(w), so that Mi-ka-ilu became Mi-ka-ya(w) and so on. It is quite clear that both of the endings are divine names, either names of gods or words simply meaning 'god'; so it looks as if Ebrum made some major alteration in the religion of Ebla at this time. Whether -ya(w) is related to the Biblical Yahweh, the one God of Israel whose name replace the earlier form of El, is a matter for debate..." - Magnus Magnusson, BC - The Archaeology of the Bible Lands
    (Source: http://home.fireplug.net/~rshand/streams/thera/canaan.html)

    Perhaps it was a case of the name of God, "el", being preserved by the people of Canaan from the time of Shem, while a substitution was made in the object of worship. In other words, they kept the name, but accepted an idol in place of the true God. A picture of an image of the Canaanite god "el" accompanies the article.

    In any case, the name "el" was used for purposes of idolatry. It was "El" himself who commanded the Isra-el-ites, to kill all the inhabitants of the land of Canaan, because of their idolatry. However, He did not tell Israel to change their name and He continued to use it to refer to Israel and to Himself (Josh. 7:13, "God" = "elohyim").

    One of the few opinions which most pro-names groups do agree on, is the claim that the name "Jesus" is unacceptable, although some do disagree over the reasoning. Some say it's because the English word didn't exist in the first century. Other say it's because the letter "J" didn't exist then. Still others say that the word comes from the names of pagan gods. Some say it's because of all of the above reasons, but there is some contradiction between these opinions. Did the name not exist, or did it come from a pagan source?

    "Scholars have demonstrated that there is no etymological connection between the names 'Jesus' and 'Zeus.' Jesus is the Anglicized form of the Latin word 'Iesus'; Iesus is the Latin form of the Greek word 'Iesous.' Iesous is the Greek form of the Hebrew word 'Yeshua.' Zeus and Iesous are not cognates (related in origin). Moreover, there is no connection between the name Jesus and the god called 'Yes'. 'Yes', one of the names of Bacchus, is not connected to the name Jesus by adding the Latin termination 'sus'. Bacchus was one of the names of Nimrod; therefore, there is no etymological connection between the name of the god 'Yes' and Jesus.

    A point to consider is that when Paul preached to Greeks at Athens, he preached about Jesus (Acts 17:18,31). The Greeks accused Paul of being a 'setter forth of strange gods'. They did not connect the name Jesus with the Greek god Zeus. This simply points out that there is not a single historical or scholarly source that etymologically connects Jesus with the god Zeus. All authorities state that Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew word 'Joshua' or Aramaic word 'Jeshua'. The idea that Iesous is the Ionic masculine form of Iaso, the Greek goddess of healing cannot be substantiated. In the abridged and unabridged editions of Greek-English Lexicon by Liddell and Scott there is no such word connected with Iaso. Iesous is listed as the name of Jesus, which this Lexicon says is the Greek form of the Hebrew name 'Joshua'. Iesous is in no way related to Iaso, the Greek goddess of healing.

    Now what about the title 'Christ'? Sacred Names advocates admit that they have been ridiculed in times past for suggesting that the word Christ is derived from the Indian deity 'Chrishna' or 'Krishna.' Their answer to this criticism is that, in the book The Two Babylons, p. 60, by Alexander Hislop, there is an illustration of the serpent Calyia slain by Vishnu in the reincarnated form of Chrishna. They say that this portrayal of Genesis 3:15 depicts Chrishna as the serpent-crusher of India, and that Dr. Ignaz Goldhier who wrote the book Mythology Among the Hebrews, links the deities of India and Greece together. Therefore, the Sacred Names advocates believe that the name 'Christ' is closely associated with pagan worship.

    It is admitted by both sides of the Sacred Names issue that the word 'Christ' ceased to be a title and became a part of the proper name 'Jesus Christ'. "
    (Source: http://www.bibleresearch.org/law/sacredname.html).

    (See also, "The 'Family Tree' of the word, 'salvation'." below. See also, "Appendix 3: The Names of the Son".)

    If "profaned" names could not be used (as per the pro-names arguments), then we could not use "Isra-el" either, even in the Hebrew language, "Yisra-el". But as we saw above, the "profaning" is accomplished in the actions done, not in the words used.

    "Yhwh" Profaned?

    What about the word, "yhwh" or it many variations? Has it ever been "profaned" (according to the definition used by some names groups)? Consider the following quotes:
    " Yw, Yawu, Yah, Iahu, IeuoYw or Yawu is given as the original name of Yam in the Myth of Ba`al from Ugarit, and is probably the same as Ieuo in Philo of Byblos' Phoenician History. He is possibly to be identified with Yahweh. Coincidentally, a likely pronunciation of Yod-Heh-Vau-Heh really is Yahuh (Yahoo!)."
    (Source: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2938/mindei.html)

    " The Protoindo European god Yayash, Yaë or Yave, a protective god whose symbol was a tree, signifying possibly '"walking", "going", "a pilgrim", has been dated back to the Indus River valley, circa 2900 B.C.E. He has been identified with the Turko Syrian Yahveh, a "sacred animal or organization".
  20. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    "Yahweh appears to have been originally a sky god - a god of thunder and lightning. He was associated with mountains and was called by the enemies of Israel 'a god of the hills'. His manifestation was often as fire, as at Mount Sinai and in the burning bush." "A shorter form, 'Yah', was also used (Exodus 15:2) and some scholars believe that this is the older form, originating in an exclamation to God -'Yah!' - which came to be accepted as the divine name. Others claim that it is from the root 'hayah', 'to be' or 'to become', and that it meant 'I am that I am' or I will be that I will be'. According to one tradition of the call of Moses, the divine name Yahweh was revealed to him in Egypt: - Great Events of Bible Times

    "Originally, these four consonants [in YHWH] represented the four members of the Heavenly Family: Y represented El the Father; H was Asherah the Mother; W corresponded to He the Son; and H was the Daughter Anath. In accordance with the royal traditions of the time and region, God's mysterious bride, the Matronit, was also reckoned to be his sister. In the Jewish cult of the Cabbala God's dual male-female image was perpetuated. Meanwhile other sects perceived the Shekinah or Matronit as the female presence of God on Earth. The divine marital chamber was the sanctuary of the Jerusalem Temple, but from the moment the Temple was destroyed, the Matronit was destined to roam the Earth while the male aspect of Jehovah was left to rule the heavens alone." - Laurence Gardner, Bloodline of the Holy Grail, p. 18
    (Source: Biblical Beginnings in Canaan, Op. Cit.)
    By some pro-names standards, "yhwh" has also been ?profaned?. What about "yah"?


    A letter found in a mound northwest of the modern town of Ta'annek written in the fifth century B.C. proves that 'Yah' was a deity of the Canaanites. Yah is associated with the Canaanitish Mother-goddess, Ashtart-Anat as seen by the Father-Mother titles of the deity of the Jews at Elephantine. There, the title of Anat-Yaw is seen as well as Ashim-Bethel and Afat-Bethel where the titles of Astarte are combined with the Sun-god, Bethel. At Gaza, Yah appears as a Sun-god on a coin and coins were frequently inscribed with the figure of Ashtart-Yaw, Anat-Yaw, and Anat-Bethel, which corresponds to the Phoenician Melk-Ashtart and Eshmun-Ashtart (The Mythology Of All Races, Vol. 5, p. 44).

    Yah was identified with the Aramaic Thunder-god, Adad. A coin from of the fourth century B.C. in southern Philisti (when the Jews were in subjection to the Persian kings) has the only known representation of the Hebrew Deity. The letters YHW were inscribed just above a bird which the god held on his arm. The most likely identification of the god Yah of Gaza is the Hebrew, Phoenician, and Aramaic Sun-god El or Elohim whom the Hebrews had long since identified with Yah (ibid., pp. 42-43).

    The collection of ancient manuscripts found at the Jewish colony of Elephantine demonstrates the use of Canaanite religious terminology in conjunction with the name of Israel's God_Yahu. Such compound names as Anath-Yahu, Anath-Bethel, Ishum-Bethel, and Herem-Bethel are found there. These names all represent the attempt to combine differing philosophies and religious beliefs that were prevalent in the centuries following the Israelite conquest of Canaan. For example, Anath was the ancient Canaanite goddess, the sister of Baal (Bruce, p. 53), and Baal was one of the ancient names for Nimrod (Hislop, p. 232).

    It was from the divine name Yah that the Greeks took 'Ie' in the invocations of the gods, especially the god Apollo. The name 'Ie' was written from right to left and inscribed over the great door of the temple of Apollo at Delphi (Taylor, p. 183). Iao, a variant of the Tetragrammaton, was applied to the Graeco-Egyptian god Harpocrates or Horus. Horus was called Harpocrates by the Greeks. The ancient Greeks had an acclamation similar to Hallelujah (Praise you Yah). They used Hallulujee in the beginning and ending of their hymns in honor of Apollo (Taylor, p. 183).
    (Source: http://www.bibleresearch.org/law/sacredname.html)

    [Note that ?halleujah? has also been ?profaned?, by some pro-names standards.]
    "A Jewish community who wanted to rebuild the temple wrote the Elephantine Papers dated 495-400 B.C. They refer to Yah's temple. Yah is a shortened form of Yahweh. "After 70 CE (Common Era) and the fall of Jerusalem, the liturgical use of `Yahweh' ceased, but the tradition was perpetuated in rabbinical schools and was used by healers, exorcists, and magicians (p. 198)." Also see "The Divine Names Through the Ages," http://www.watchtower.org/library/na/ages.htm."
    (Source: http://www.plim.org/Sacred Names Article.html)

    So we see that even the Jews themselves, those who were, or are followers of Cabbalism (Jewish Mysticism), made an idol of the word "yhwh", using it to worship a false god or gods.
    Therefore, by this pro-names argument, "yhwh" and its many variations cannot be used to address God either!

    There is considerable information available on pagan religions. It is not difficult to see that, by the pro-names definition of "profaned", the words "yah", "ya", and "yah-hu", have also been "profaned" by application to pagan gods.
    "The Sacred Name of God

    The Whirling Dervishes of Sufism chant the zikr (holy chant), "Yah-Hu" as they ceremonially spin in rapture, while the world of Islam praises, "Allah." Christians and Jews sing hymns of praise using, "Alleluyah and Amen."

    Interestingly, if the word "Alle-lu-yah," (meaning, "praise to Yah" and often misinterpreted in the West as being, "praise the Lord") is sounded-out, you will hear the "Allah," the "U" and the "Yah" in the same word.
    Similarly, many Vedic chants of praise also contain Yah, e.g. Rama-yah, Isha-ya (Yah my Divine Husband), Jai-ya (Yah as joy); Shiva-ya (Yah is purity, holiness, truth); Krishna ya (Yah is the transcendental loving Witness); Vishnu yah (Yah is all pervasive Light); Kali ya (Yah is the creative manifesting force or energy) etc. etc.
    (Source: http://www.corplink.com.au/~roman/Sacred.html)

    "Pagan leaders used the name Yahweh. The name was inscribed on the Moabite Stone in Jordan about 830 B.C. exactly as it appeared in the Old Testament. The Lachish Letters, written between 589-587 B.C. and discovered in 1935 in the ancient town of Lachish near Jerusalem, frequently used the name Yahweh. "
    (Source: http://www.plim.org/Sacred Names Article.html)

    What about the word "Father"?

    If the argument about "being profaned" applies to names, wouldn't it also apply to other words used to address God?
    "In the Greek mythology, Zeus is called the "father (pater) of the . . . (Olympian ) gods" and, "he was often called `Father Zeus'" (Elizabeth Burr, translator, The Chiron Dictionary of Greek and Roman Mythology, pp. 311-312, 1993). In the Roman mythology, the equivalent of Zeus was Jupiter, whose name is derived from the Latin Diespater, meaning the "father of light" (Burr, Chiron, p. 159)."

    (Source: Sacred Names: A Critical Analysis of C.J. Koster's Come Out of Her, My People, by Charles M. Knight, http://www.mindspring.com/~icga/sn1.htm)

    If the argument about "being profaned" were correct, then we couldn't use the term "Father", either. God inspired Jeremiah to speak against Judah for idolatry in their, "Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth:..." (Jer. 2:27). Yet, we have Christ?s own example in frequently using the term "Father".
    (See also, # 20, "Father", above.)

    29. Some say that Rev. 3:8 shows that the world has "denied" the "Hebrew names".
    "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name." (Rev. 3:8).
    One pro-names group says that the use of the "Hebrew names" is an identifying mark of the Philadelphia church era. Their website contains the following statements.

    "All aspiring religious groups strive to be the Philadelphia assembly mentioned in Revelation chapter 3. But they overlook one of its important attributes: "I know you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name," Revelation 3:8, NIV. By using substitute names, churchianity has denied the sacred Name. Webster's New World Dictionary says of the word "deny": "To declare untrue; contradict; refuse to accept as true or right; reject as unfounded, unreal, etc.; to refuse to acknowledge as one's own; refuse to grant or give; to refuse the use of or access to; to refuse the request of (a person)."
    We notice that the definition of "deny" does not include the word "substitution".

    It's also interesting that this group quotes only Rev. 3:8, since a similar phrase also occurs in Rev.2:13, which is addressed to the Pergamos church (verse 2). If one believes that Revelation is describing consecutive church eras, then there is a problem with this "names" argument. The Pergamos era is identified as existing from 650 AD to 1000 AD. The "names" movement is recognized to have begun with a book published in 1857.

    From a website on the history of the "names" movement, we see the following credit. "It seems only just, that, for the wide acceptance of THE NAME during the 30's until now (1966), honor should go to Alexander MacWhorter of Yale University who published a book, THE MEMORIAL NAME, or YAVEH CHRIST, more than a HUNDRED YEARS ago, in 1857, ..."
    The message to Pergamos includes the following. "I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth." (Rev. 2:13).

    While we have some details of groups and individuals during the Pergamos "era" (or 650-1000AD), there is no indication that any of them used "Hebrew names". This is about 1,200 years before the earliest record of the "names" movement, yet Pergamos is credited by God as 'holding fast (God's) name'.

    Actually, we can see how God defines "denial" by looking at God said. In Rev. 3:8, he says, "... thou...hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name."
    In Rev. 2:13, he says, "...thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith,"
    In 1 Tim. 5:8 we see, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

    According to God, "not denying his name" is equated with "keeping his word", and with "keeping his faith". "Keeping his faith is equated with "providing for the widows within one's own family". The Greek word for "denied" in Rev. 3:8 is Strong's # 720, "arneomai, to contradict, disavow, reject, abnegate". This same word is used in the following:
    "...he that denieth me before men..." (Lk. 12:9).
    "...he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?" (1 Jn. 2:22).
    "...that denieth the Father and the Son." (1 Jn. 2:22).
    "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same..." (1 Jn. 2:23).

    "...whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (Mat. 10:33).
    A derivation of this word, Strong's # 533, aparneomai, to deny utterly, to disown, abstain", is used in the following:

    "...If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Mat. 16:24).

    "...I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
    Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. ..." (Mat. 26:34-35).
    We know that Peter did not argue over the name of Christ, he argued whether or not he was "with" him, in other words, a disciple (Mat. 26:69-75). "Denying" our self (Mat. 16:24) does not mean translating our names into Hebrew, although some do that. If our actions "contradict" God's way of life, then we have "denied" him. We "deny" his name by claiming to be a "Christian" or "follower of God/yhwh or Christ/Messiah" but do not do the things he commanded. If we "bear" (wear) his name in vain, we break the Third Commandment.
    (See, "The Third Commandment" above.)

    30. One pro-names authors suggests that failure to understand and accept the names arguments indicates a failure to break free of paradigms forced upon us by our church organizations. This is less of an argument and more of an accusation.
    The existence of so many who accept that the Hebrew names, are in fact names, while rejecting the arguments about the use of the names being obligatory and salvation-related, disputes this idea.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.