Third temple being build in Jerusalem right now

[jgr]

No, because the church is not part of this world. You can call Paradise a Nation, but it is in heaven, not on earth.

Neither Jesus nor Peter mentioned paradise.

So you think that they were either mistaken or lying?

 

[eclipsenow]

No. God has a Nation on earth, and that Nation has been set to the side.

No! God has a Kingdom on earth, and that Kingdom welcomes both Jew and Gentile.

That Nation will return one day.

No, as one moment you say it's on the earth but just set aside, and the next minute you say it's coming back. You can't get it straight in your own mind.

The church is in Paradise and will remain there for ever. Revelation 7

No - that's the martyrs who didn't give in.
The church universal (theological church) includes the martyrs already there, and those of us alive and kicking and even us two having this conversation now. The church is both here and now and those departed to be with the lord.

There is no sun in Paradise. It is not an earthly Nation.

Absolutely HUGE theological statement there and I don't think you're very theologically aware of what you've just said. I don't have time to go into it all, but Jesus raised from the dead wasn't just humanity raised, but was an endorsement of this entire creation. For creation groans in expectation of what is coming - Paradise WILL be on the earth - a new and revamped earth - and there will be some sort of continuity, even though the very laws of physics and entropy will have to be changed as this universe is winding down. God will wind it back up again, and I can't begin to imagine what that will be like.

But there's continuity, just as when Jesus rose there was continuity. God does not hate this physical universe - but he will make it better. Immortal. The symbolism of the New Jerusalem coming out of heaven shows us that the heavenly realms themselves will somehow wed with earth as Jesus gives us a new safe home to live in.

You reject there will be a Nation on the earth. But there will be. It will not be the church.

There will be, and it is the church, both Jew and Gentile. Anything else actually starts to destroy the gospel and make me wonder if you're really on the right path in the first place? Please be careful. Read Romans and Galatians and Hebrews about a dozen times each. Here's some help on your way.

The Bible seems to teach quite clearly that Jesus IS Israel and in some sense fulfills all of the hopes and expectations for the nation. He does what they never could. He obeys God perfectly and keeps the law entirely and thereby unlocks all of the promises and blessings that God had said he would give. He then shares those blessings with all people – Jew or Gentile – who put their faith and trust in him.

That is the precise argument that Paul is making in Galatians 3. He says:

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. (Galatians 3:16 ESV)

Jesus Christ is the ultimate focus and referent for the promises of God to Israel! The promises do not land finally on a nation but on a person! The glory and climax of God’s redemptive purpose is not “Israel in the land” but “Christ on the cross”! That’s Christianity 101 the last time I checked. Jesus is the hero and focus of the Bible – not the Jewish people as a whole and all of the blessings won by Jesus are shared equally with all believing people regardless of their ethnicity, gender or class. Isn’t that what Paul goes on to say in the same chapter?

for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. (Galatians 3:26–29 ESV)

I have believed that from my earliest days as a Christian, as indeed has almost every other believer I’ve ever met.

As for the idea that “God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel”; its hard to think of anything more ridiculous than that. What nation on earth exists outside the notice and care of Almighty God? The Bible says that God has plans for Edom for crying out loud, how much more should we believe that he has plans for Israel?

I don’t know of any Christians who believe that God has no specific future plans for the nation of Israel, but I do know that good Christians disagree on what those plans are likely to be. The key text in that discussion is Romans 11:26 where Paul says: “And in this way all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26 ESV).

What does he mean by that? He has already said that ‘not all are Israel who are of Israel’ (9:6) so what exactly does he mean and what exactly does God have planned? There are two main answers commonly given to that question.

(1) He means that the full elect of God, Jew and Gentile, will all be gathered into Christ according to God’s perfect will.

That was the position of John Calvin and has had a great deal of support throughout Christian history. According to this view, God has very specific plans to save a great many people from every tribe, tongue and nation, including the nation of Israel. ‘All Israel’ thus refers to all the elect and redeemed Jews and all the elect and redeemed Gentiles collectively. The Gentiles do not replace the Jews but are gathered into Christ alongside.

(2) He means that shortly before the return of Jesus the Jewish people en mass will turn to faith in Christ

This option was dominant among my spiritual ancestors and represents the view that I favour to this day. William Carey and Andrew Fuller for example, two of the founders of The Baptist Missionary Society, both looked forward to a general conversion of the Jewish people prior to the return of Christ. Fuller wrote on this topic at some length in his Expository Remarks Relative To The Conversion Of The Jews. Iain Murray has written convincingly that this was the dominant view of the Puritans...
Does Anyone Actually Believe in Replacement Theology? - The Gospel Coalition | Canada​

 

[BABerean2]

(2) He means that shortly before the return of Jesus the Jewish people en mass will turn to faith in Christ

This option was dominant among my spiritual ancestors and represents the view that I favour to this day. William Carey and Andrew Fuller for example, two of the founders of The Baptist Missionary Society, both looked forward to a general conversion of the Jewish people prior to the return of Christ. Fuller wrote on this topic at some length in his Expository Remarks Relative To The Conversion Of The Jews. Iain Murray has written convincingly that this was the dominant view of the Puritans...
Does Anyone Actually Believe in Replacement Theology? - The Gospel Coalition | Canada

Zec 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


Some have used Zechariah 12:10 to promote the idea that a large number of modern Orthodox Jews will come to Christ during a future time. Some have even claimed it will occur on the day of His Second Coming. What is wrong with this idea?

Based on the words of John below, the piercing was fulfilled at Calvary.

Joh 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Joh 19:32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


Based on what Peter said in Acts chapter 2, the Spirit was poured out in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. We can find about 3,000 from "all the house of Israel" (Acts 2:36) "mourning" by being "cut to the heart", and repenting on that day. Therefore, Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled during the first century.

Based on what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9, there is no Plan B of salvation based on race during a future time. There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon Rain Forest, and a modern Orthodox Jew living in the Middle East. They both need Christ for the same reason, and in the same way.

The modern Church has done a pitiful job of taking the Gospel to modern Orthodox Jews, and have avoided presenting the Gospel found in the Old Testament. A false interpretation of Zechariah 12:10 may be a part of the problem.

Who is the seed of Abraham through which all the nations of the earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3?
Who is the "son" in Psalm 2?
Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53?
Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34?
Who would fulfill the timeline found in Daniel chapter 9, before the second temple was destroyed?

How many modern Orthodox Jews could come to faith if they are presented with the Gospel found above?

.

 

[Timtofly]

Neither Jesus nor Peter mentioned paradise.

So you think that they were either mistaken or lying?

43 Yeshua said to him, “Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-‘Eden.”

 

[Timtofly]

No! God has a Kingdom on earth, and that Kingdom welcomes both Jew and Gentile.


No, as one moment you say it's on the earth but just set aside, and the next minute you say it's coming back. You can't get it straight in your own mind.


No - that's the martyrs who didn't give in.
The church universal (theological church) includes the martyrs already there, and those of us alive and kicking and even us two having this conversation now. The church is both here and now and those departed to be with the lord.


Absolutely HUGE theological statement there and I don't think you're very theologically aware of what you've just said. I don't have time to go into it all, but Jesus raised from the dead wasn't just humanity raised, but was an endorsement of this entire creation. For creation groans in expectation of what is coming - Paradise WILL be on the earth - a new and revamped earth - and there will be some sort of continuity, even though the very laws of physics and entropy will have to be changed as this universe is winding down. God will wind it back up again, and I can't begin to imagine what that will be like.

But there's continuity, just as when Jesus rose there was continuity. God does not hate this physical universe - but he will make it better. Immortal. The symbolism of the New Jerusalem coming out of heaven shows us that the heavenly realms themselves will somehow wed with earth as Jesus gives us a new safe home to live in.


There will be, and it is the church, both Jew and Gentile. Anything else actually starts to destroy the gospel and make me wonder if you're really on the right path in the first place? Please be careful. Read Romans and Galatians and Hebrews about a dozen times each. Here's some help on your way.

The Bible seems to teach quite clearly that Jesus IS Israel and in some sense fulfills all of the hopes and expectations for the nation. He does what they never could. He obeys God perfectly and keeps the law entirely and thereby unlocks all of the promises and blessings that God had said he would give. He then shares those blessings with all people – Jew or Gentile – who put their faith and trust in him.

That is the precise argument that Paul is making in Galatians 3. He says:

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. (Galatians 3:16 ESV)

Jesus Christ is the ultimate focus and referent for the promises of God to Israel! The promises do not land finally on a nation but on a person! The glory and climax of God’s redemptive purpose is not “Israel in the land” but “Christ on the cross”! That’s Christianity 101 the last time I checked. Jesus is the hero and focus of the Bible – not the Jewish people as a whole and all of the blessings won by Jesus are shared equally with all believing people regardless of their ethnicity, gender or class. Isn’t that what Paul goes on to say in the same chapter?

for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. (Galatians 3:26–29 ESV)

I have believed that from my earliest days as a Christian, as indeed has almost every other believer I’ve ever met.

As for the idea that “God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel”; its hard to think of anything more ridiculous than that. What nation on earth exists outside the notice and care of Almighty God? The Bible says that God has plans for Edom for crying out loud, how much more should we believe that he has plans for Israel?

I don’t know of any Christians who believe that God has no specific future plans for the nation of Israel, but I do know that good Christians disagree on what those plans are likely to be. The key text in that discussion is Romans 11:26 where Paul says: “And in this way all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26 ESV).

What does he mean by that? He has already said that ‘not all are Israel who are of Israel’ (9:6) so what exactly does he mean and what exactly does God have planned? There are two main answers commonly given to that question.

(1) He means that the full elect of God, Jew and Gentile, will all be gathered into Christ according to God’s perfect will.

That was the position of John Calvin and has had a great deal of support throughout Christian history. According to this view, God has very specific plans to save a great many people from every tribe, tongue and nation, including the nation of Israel. ‘All Israel’ thus refers to all the elect and redeemed Jews and all the elect and redeemed Gentiles collectively. The Gentiles do not replace the Jews but are gathered into Christ alongside.

(2) He means that shortly before the return of Jesus the Jewish people en mass will turn to faith in Christ

This option was dominant among my spiritual ancestors and represents the view that I favour to this day. William Carey and Andrew Fuller for example, two of the founders of The Baptist Missionary Society, both looked forward to a general conversion of the Jewish people prior to the return of Christ. Fuller wrote on this topic at some length in his Expository Remarks Relative To The Conversion Of The Jews. Iain Murray has written convincingly that this was the dominant view of the Puritans...
Does Anyone Actually Believe in Replacement Theology? - The Gospel Coalition | Canada​

The church is not on the earth. The church has a few ambassadors living on the earth. The church comes down as the New Jerusalem. A city nation if you insist, since it is 1200 square miles. It is also 1200 miles high.


The Nation of earth, on the earth has always been, since Jacob was named Israel, and will always be a Nation on the earth. Right now a scattered Nation. Is Israel complete today on the map? You claim the church is, yet Israel has a presence now as well. But Israel is not complete. And the church is not even called citizens of earth.

Is this so called kingdom on earth or in Paradise? Adam's flesh on earth is as good as this kingdom gets (on earth), and claiming land rights is a mute point. We are here to sign up as many Adam flesh bodies who also trust in an off world citizenship. Ambassadors in training.

At what point are we to demand or force God's Will on all nations creating a new single nation? Constantine tried that. We got the dark ages.

You can dismiss the literal aspects of a future reality as just symbolism, but you have to view your kingdom as symbolic as well.

The main issue is you view heaven as spiritual and the earth as physical and God cannot have two Nations. Heaven is physical and those in charge of the earth currently are spiritual. All creation is equally physical and spiritual. You want to separate earth in contrast to heaven. You cannot. There is a physical Nation in heaven. There is a physical Nation on earth. Jacob has been spiritually cast out like Adam was from the Garden of Eden. Israel as a Nation did not cease, it just had no territory. Adam as a family did not cease physically, that family never had a home. The Cross opened up Adam's home called Paradise, and it is just as physical as the original Garden. New Jerusalem will not come down until after the 1000 year physical reign of Jacob on earth. The church will not be on earth during that 1000 years. The church is not all of Adam's descendants, like Israel is not all of Jacob's descendants. Some of Israel chose to become citizens of Paradise. They are both Adam's and Jacob's offspring. There is no dual citizenship.

 

[jgr]

43 Yeshua said to him, “Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-‘Eden.”

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Timtofly]

Based on what Peter said in Acts chapter 2, the Spirit was poured out in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. We can find about 3,000 from "all the house of Israel" (Acts 2:36) "mourning" by being "cut to the heart", and repenting on that day. Therefore, Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled during the first century.

The problem is not that it did not happen nor happens on an ongoing basis.

The problem is Adam's condition is still ongoing generation after generation. Every generation needs an outpouring of Revival. Not just the first one in the first century, nor the last one before the Second Coming. At some point the church lost sight and just decided to be a physical government on earth, and forgot what God promised about the church in Paradise.

Zechariah 12:10 should be fulfilled in every single generation. All of Adam's descendants put those piercings into the physical body, even those who lived the 4000 years prior to the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

30 Then, leading them outside, he said, “Men, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Trust in the Lord Yeshua, and you will be saved — you and your household!”

 

[BABerean2]

Zechariah 12:10 should be fulfilled in every single generation.

Do you think the passage below will be fulfilled in every generation?

Jesus' Side Is Pierced

Joh 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Joh 19:32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

.

 

[jgr]

30 Then, leading them outside, he said, “Men, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Trust in the Lord Yeshua, and you will be saved — you and your household!”

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

 

[eclipsenow]

Zec 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


Some have used Zechariah 12:10 to promote the idea that a large number of modern Orthodox Jews will come to Christ during a future time. Some have even claimed it will occur on the day of His Second Coming. What is wrong with this idea?

Based on the words of John below, the piercing was fulfilled at Calvary.

Joh 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Joh 19:32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


Based on what Peter said in Acts chapter 2, the Spirit was poured out in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. We can find about 3,000 from "all the house of Israel" (Acts 2:36) "mourning" by being "cut to the heart", and repenting on that day. Therefore, Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled during the first century.

Based on what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9, there is no Plan B of salvation based on race during a future time. There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon Rain Forest, and a modern Orthodox Jew living in the Middle East. They both need Christ for the same reason, and in the same way.

The modern Church has done a pitiful job of taking the Gospel to modern Orthodox Jews, and have avoided presenting the Gospel found in the Old Testament. A false interpretation of Zechariah 12:10 may be a part of the problem.

Who is the seed of Abraham through which all the nations of the earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3?
Who is the "son" in Psalm 2?
Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53?
Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34?
Who would fulfill the timeline found in Daniel chapter 9, before the second temple was destroyed?

How many modern Orthodox Jews could come to faith if they are presented with the Gospel found above?

.

Exactly. 100% this!
It's all scattered through the New Testament - but especially concentrated in Romans and Galatians and Hebrews. If only more end-times-tables types spent more time in these books.

 

[ShineyDays2]

If only more end-times-tables types spent more time in these books.

My sentiments as well! Having experienced a tit-for-tat thread that one individual still believes that it is ok to exchange the Greek word "naos" (temple) to mean a "literal temple" to be built in the future, I believe that once a person has been indoctrinated with false doctrines, it is impossible for them to let go of it no matter how many scriptures are used to refute that false doctrine --- without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit! BUT we have to try.

 

[eclipsenow]

The church is not on the earth. The church has a few ambassadors living on the earth. The church comes down as the New Jerusalem. A city nation if you insist, since it is 1200 square miles. It is also 1200 miles high.

You see? Right here - this is where you're failing to read some number symbolism.

By reading the most metaphorical and symbolic book of the bible literally, you've totally and utterly missed the theology.

It's more like we are reading Shakespeare than an engineering manual. A literalist would misread Shakespeare's line - "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun." - and complain "That's weird - he's saying Juliet is a giant ball of fusing hydrogen millions and millions of miles across! How can this be true?"

Truth can be conveyed in poetry and metaphor - and sometimes is the *best* genre to explain certain truths! So the size of the New Jerusalem? You've tried to convert it into a modern unit of measure because you read it literally - and failed to even get that right. It's not 1200 miles at all! Converting it to a literal modern measurement today is guaranteed to miss the theological point.

In 21:16, the angel measures the city with a golden rod or reed, and records it as 12,000 stadia by 12,000 stadia at the base, and 12,000 stadia high. A stadion is usually stated as 185 meters, or 607 feet, so the base has dimensions of about 2220 km by 2220 km, or 1380 miles by 1380 miles.
New Jerusalem​

Instead, let's go back and see what the verse actually says and if that has any symbolic meaning to get our theological meaning out of.

"The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long."​

There it is. How can you miss it? Numbers mean things in Revelation. Numbers SCREAM things in Revelation - once you're clued up on the historic use of the symbolism.

12,000 is 12 - the number of tribes and apostles and ultimately the kingdom of God - times a gazillion. (1000 means really big number like saying "a gazillion".)

The number 12,000 is therefore describing (not literally measuring!) the New Jerusalem as big enough for all God's people times a gazillion! It will be lavish - with all the room we need for all God's people. But there might be a clever double meaning as well. 12,000 stadia is roughly the width of the old Roman empire or 'known world' and that's another way of saying the New Jerusalem will swallow up the world.

But I think the number 12,000 itself should scream at us! God's people times a gazillion. That's how big it will be.

The Nation of earth, on the earth has always been, since Jacob was named Israel, and will always be a Nation on the earth. Right now a scattered Nation. Is Israel complete today on the map? You claim the church is, yet Israel has a presence now as well. But Israel is not complete. And the church is not even called citizens of earth.

You keep just asserting this but repetition does not bring us closer to the truth. You have not addressed the verses I quoted above. "All Israel will be saved" means all God's people, both Jew and Gentile, will be saved through the gospel Paul explains in Romans and Galatians and Hebrews.

Is this so called kingdom on earth or in Paradise?

Both - I already answered that under "universal church" above.

Adam's flesh on earth is as good as this kingdom gets (on earth),

No - the story progressed all the way down to Jesus. READ THE VERSES I submitted above!

and claiming land rights is a mute point.

No - the land promises are expanded out to all the earth - read the whole bible and especially Hebrews.

We are here to sign up as many Adam flesh bodies who also trust in an off world citizenship. Ambassadors in training.

Yes - the gospel is our mission. So?

At what point are we to demand or force God's Will on all nations creating a new single nation? Constantine tried that. We got the dark ages.

Who said that? We're the one KINGDOM of God from many tribes and languages and tongues. Nations are no longer important, theologically. Show me where nations are important in the New Testament before you continue. You're not making any sense.

You can dismiss the literal aspects of a future reality as just symbolism, but you have to view your kingdom as symbolic as well.

Rubbish - if that's what you think you haven't comprehended what I'm saying.

We belong to the kingdom of God now - that's the church universal both martyred and alive - from every language. We WILL belong to the kingdom of God realised on the Earth in a New Heavens and New Earth. I have not dismissed Judgement Day and this promise at all - but hold onto it dearly!

The main issue is you view heaven as spiritual and the earth as physical

Yes and no. Heaven is in the heavenly realms but will 'marry' with the earth in the New Heavens and New Earth and we will have bodies and be embodied, real beings here on a New Earth in some form. And it will be awesome.

and God cannot have two Nations.

Um, I wouldn't put it this way but in the language of the church universal - both martyred and alive.

Heaven is physical

What? that's crazy talk. Heaven is spiritual - where God is - the spiritual realm of ultimate reality that was the first cause of this whole physical universe.

and those in charge of the earth currently are spiritual.

Huh? You're not making any sense.

All creation is equally physical and spiritual.

You have an over-realised eschatology that wants the future promise of the great wedding feast of the lamb, the New Jerusalem, now. But it hasn't happened yet or there would be no sin or evil or pain or death or tears of any kind.

There is a physical Nation in heaven.

Prove it. With verses.

Warning: with this last post you're close to sounding so out there that I might put you on my ignore list and just not bother with you any more!

There is a physical Nation on earth. Jacob has been spiritually cast out like Adam was from the Garden of Eden. Israel as a Nation did not cease, it just had no territory. Adam as a family did not cease physically, that family never had a home. The Cross opened up Adam's home called Paradise, and it is just as physical as the original Garden. New Jerusalem will not come down until after the 1000 year physical reign of Jacob on earth. The church will not be on earth during that 1000 years. The church is not all of Adam's descendants, like Israel is not all of Jacob's descendants. Some of Israel chose to become citizens of Paradise. They are both Adam's and Jacob's offspring. There is no dual citizenship.

The ONLY thing you said here that is actually reflected in the bible is the 'no dual citizenship' thing. After Jesus you're either a Christian or you're not. Israel is irrelevant, as there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave or free, but only Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you think the passage below will be fulfilled in every generation?

Jesus' Side Is Pierced

Joh 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Joh 19:32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

.

It was not a Roman soldier that pierced Him. It was the sin Atonement, that pierced Him. All in Adam pierced Jesus, no exclusions.

 

[Timtofly]

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

 

[BABerean2]

It was not a Roman soldier that pierced Him.

John 19:34

(ESV) But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.

(ESV+) But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out R11blood and water.

(Geneva) But one of the souldiers with a speare pearced his side, and foorthwith came there out blood and water.

(GW) However, one of the soldiers stabbed Jesus' side with his spear, and blood and water immediately came out.

(KJV) But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

(KJV+) ButG235 oneG1520 of theG3588 soldiersG4757 with a spearG3057 piercedG3572 hisG846 side,G4125 andG2532 forthwithG2117 came there outG1831 bloodG129 andG2532 water.G5204

(NKJV) But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

(YLT) but one of the soldiers with a spear did pierce his side, and immediately there came forth blood and water;

.

 

[Timtofly]

You see? Right here - this is where you're failing to read some number symbolism.

By reading the most metaphorical and symbolic book of the bible literally, you've totally and utterly missed the theology.

It's more like we are reading Shakespeare than an engineering manual. A literalist would misread Shakespeare's line - "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun." - and complain "That's weird - he's saying Juliet is a giant ball of fusing hydrogen millions and millions of miles across! How can this be true?"

Truth can be conveyed in poetry and metaphor - and sometimes is the *best* genre to explain certain truths! So the size of the New Jerusalem? You've tried to convert it into a modern unit of measure because you read it literally - and failed to even get that right. It's not 1200 miles at all! Converting it to a literal modern measurement today is guaranteed to miss the theological point.

In 21:16, the angel measures the city with a golden rod or reed, and records it as 12,000 stadia by 12,000 stadia at the base, and 12,000 stadia high. A stadion is usually stated as 185 meters, or 607 feet, so the base has dimensions of about 2220 km by 2220 km, or 1380 miles by 1380 miles.
New Jerusalem​

Instead, let's go back and see what the verse actually says and if that has any symbolic meaning to get our theological meaning out of.

"The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long."​

There it is. How can you miss it? Numbers mean things in Revelation. Numbers SCREAM things in Revelation - once you're clued up on the historic use of the symbolism.

12,000 is 12 - the number of tribes and apostles and ultimately the kingdom of God - times a gazillion. (1000 means really big number like saying "a gazillion".)

The number 12,000 is therefore describing (not literally measuring!) the New Jerusalem as big enough for all God's people times a gazillion! It will be lavish - with all the room we need for all God's people. But there might be a clever double meaning as well. 12,000 stadia is roughly the width of the old Roman empire or 'known world' and that's another way of saying the New Jerusalem will swallow up the world.

But I think the number 12,000 itself should scream at us! God's people times a gazillion. That's how big it will be.


You keep just asserting this but repetition does not bring us closer to the truth. You have not addressed the verses I quoted above. "All Israel will be saved" means all God's people, both Jew and Gentile, will be saved through the gospel Paul explains in Romans and Galatians and Hebrews.


Both - I already answered that under "universal church" above.


No - the story progressed all the way down to Jesus. READ THE VERSES I submitted above!


No - the land promises are expanded out to all the earth - read the whole bible and especially Hebrews.



Yes - the gospel is our mission. So?


Who said that? We're the one KINGDOM of God from many tribes and languages and tongues. Nations are no longer important, theologically. Show me where nations are important in the New Testament before you continue. You're not making any sense.


Rubbish - if that's what you think you haven't comprehended what I'm saying.

We belong to the kingdom of God now - that's the church universal both martyred and alive - from every language. We WILL belong to the kingdom of God realised on the Earth in a New Heavens and New Earth. I have not dismissed Judgement Day and this promise at all - but hold onto it dearly!


Yes and no. Heaven is in the heavenly realms but will 'marry' with the earth in the New Heavens and New Earth and we will have bodies and be embodied, real beings here on a New Earth in some form. And it will be awesome.


Um, I wouldn't put it this way but in the language of the church universal - both martyred and alive.



What? that's crazy talk. Heaven is spiritual - where God is - the spiritual realm of ultimate reality that was the first cause of this whole physical universe.


Huh? You're not making any sense.



You have an over-realised eschatology that wants the future promise of the great wedding feast of the lamb, the New Jerusalem, now. But it hasn't happened yet or there would be no sin or evil or pain or death or tears of any kind.


Prove it. With verses.

Warning: with this last post you're close to sounding so out there that I might put you on my ignore list and just not bother with you any more!



The ONLY thing you said here that is actually reflected in the bible is the 'no dual citizenship' thing. After Jesus you're either a Christian or you're not. Israel is irrelevant, as there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave or free, but only Christ.

16 The city is laid out in a square, its length equal to its width. With his rod he measured the city at 1,500 miles, with length, width and height the same.

I am not a universalist. You will never convince me all humanity will be saved.

The church is Adam's offspring.

The Nation of Israel is the offspring of Jacob.

 

[Timtofly]

John 19:34

(ESV) But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.

(ESV+) But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out R11blood and water.

(Geneva) But one of the souldiers with a speare pearced his side, and foorthwith came there out blood and water.

(GW) However, one of the soldiers stabbed Jesus' side with his spear, and blood and water immediately came out.

(KJV) But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

(KJV+) ButG235 oneG1520 of theG3588 soldiersG4757 with a spearG3057 piercedG3572 hisG846 side,G4125 andG2532 forthwithG2117 came there outG1831 bloodG129 andG2532 water.G5204

(NKJV) But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

(YLT) but one of the soldiers with a spear did pierce his side, and immediately there came forth blood and water;

.

And I am the one who is condemned as a literalist???

 

[jgr]

for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

True. No part of God's kingdom-fruit-producing holy nation of His Church, they.

 

[eclipsenow]

16 The city is laid out in a square, its length equal to its width. With his rod he measured the city at 1,500 miles, with length, width and height the same.

It's not my fault you read the wrong version - both the NIV and ESV use the stadia.

ESV
15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia.​

I am not a universalist. You will never convince me all humanity will be saved.

Again - just for laughs - try reading what I actually wrote - not what you imagined me to be saying. And learn some basic theology.

DEFINITION
The universal church is a heavenly and eschatological assembly of everyone—past, present, and future—who belongs to Christ’s new covenant and kingdom. A local church is a mutually-affirming group of new covenant members and kingdom citizens, identified by regularly gathering together in Jesus’ name through preaching the gospel and celebrating the ordinances.
The Church: Universal and Local - The Gospel Coalition​

It unpacks the concept more at the link above but you're only interested in the sound of your own voice. As is demonstrated by your "Rinse and repeat" routine below.

The church is Adam's offspring.

The church is the fulfilment of God's promises to Adam and Eve that one of their children would be the serpent crusher. Jesus fulfilled that, and so in a sense Christians are Jesus offspring more than Adam's. If anything, the world in enmity to God is Adam's offspring.

One must be born of the man above not the man below. Remember how I kept saying you need to read Romans? Try Romans 5 on this one! Seriously, when you're done reading it - just remember it's not my fault you're the one that keeps asserting things directly opposite to what the bible says - and I keep saying "Please STOP and read Romans and Galatians and Hebrews like 10 times each." Dude - just STOP and do that, OK?

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Comprehension question: who brings righteousness before God - Adam or Jesus? Who gives eternal life? What do these things also include? (Membership of Christ or being 'in Christ' ie: being in his body, the church.)


Now, this gets awkward.

Remember when you said...

There is a physical Nation in heaven.

And then I asked you to prove it, with verses?
You've not done that yet. Try again.