Third temple being build in Jerusalem right now

[grafted branch]

God was always timeless and Peter was actually referring back to a Psalm, so no, God did not change the way He reckoned time at some date in the past. God does not change and Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

The ordinance was given prior to man being created and in the beginning was the word and it was with God. So why would God not abide by his own ordinance that was before him?

If you believe that God won't fulfill His promises to National Israel (and since He already knew they'd fail at upholding their end, it'd mean He never truly intended to fulfill those promises, so that'd mean God was being deceptive), then you should worry about any promise He made to you.

So I could ask you a similar question; should you worry about the rules or ordinances God made if he himself never intended to keep them?

Even if God means that Israel won't exist as a nation on the New Earth... the New Earth hasn't happened yet... and New Jerusalem isn't the entire span of the Heavens. The second heavens (the physical universe/space) is unmeasurable. We have a known universe that we can measure, but because of the speed of light we know that's not actually the physical edge of the universe, we can't measure that.

New Jerusalem was measured at the time John wrote Revelation, and we currently have the measurements. If you want to argue over which heaven has to be measured, that’s fine, but all the other requirements for Israel not to be considered a nation have been met.

 

[Timtofly]

What God claimed was if the ordinances departed from before Him, not from before us or the reality that is here before us.

I would think that we would cease to exist if the Laws of reality ceased. That is the problem with cessation or annihilation thought. There is no such Law. Reality in Revelation 21 changes around created beings. It is seemless. There is no cessation or annihilation nor gap in existence. That is why I ask why does it matter?

If you think that we will not notice, you must not understand what being in the image of God is. As an eternal soul, we experience exactly what God does if this should occur.

If you mean we cannot be in God's mind and that is where these Laws exist, that would remove the possibility even further away. That would refute your ability to say Israel will never exist at any point, much less at a future point. Talking about Israel ceasing to exist will never make sense if that were the case.

Is not your point God will make Israel cease to exist even if He claims otherwise?

 

[jgr]

That is replacement theology.
That's a dangerous pitfall to fall into.
If you believe that God won't fulfill His promises to National Israel (and since He already knew they'd fail at upholding their end, it'd mean He never truly intended to fulfill those promises, so that'd mean God was being deceptive), then you should worry about any promise He made to you.

Paul taught that Israel was partially blinded but one day God would remove that blindness and a remnant would be saved, Zachariah gave the detail that 2/3 of Israel would die but the 1/3 remnant would be saved.

How does God identify "national Israel"?

1. Physical DNA
2. Babylonian talmudism
3. Culture
4. ?

 

[grafted branch]

If you think that we will not notice, you must not understand what being in the image of God is. As an eternal soul, we experience exactly what God does if this should occur.

Then why would Peter say one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day?

Is not your point God will make Israel cease to exist even if He claims otherwise?

My point is God made a promise that if certain conditions were met that Israel would no long be considered a nation before God.

 

[Timtofly]

Then why would Peter say one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day?

Because a Day with the Lord is 1000 years on earth. Is the same time only a Day in Paradise with God? We are not told much about Paradise, but here is a thought. If there is no change at all then time is not even relevant. Now if all the change (on earth) that is seen in heaven is some sort of "live view" from earth, does change happen to them while watching those on earth? Do they watch for days, and then feel like no time has passed? Or do they look away, and the next time they view life on earth it is a thousand years later, because nothing literally changed for them while they "looked away"?

No one except perhaps Moses, Enoch/Elijah have been claimed to have entered Paradise before the Cross. So the first 4000 years, since the fall are not even relative as time in Paradise as just being 4 Days. If you take 2 Corinthians 5 and Paul's words, then literal souls have been entering Paradise and their incorruptible permanent bodies constantly for the last 1990 years or only 2 Days in Paradise.

That is how I see Peter's thoughts on his explanation of God's patience and longsuffering. Has God literally waited for 5990 years for the end of Adam's punishment? That seems to be the wrong approach. Humanity has endured 5990 years of Adam's punishment. We know humans are not patient at all.

My point is God made a promise that if certain conditions were met that Israel would no long be considered a nation before God.

Those conditions that you claim only God has control over.

I am sure that failing God is also not charged to our account. Does that mean their failures were not the reason they lost status as a Nation?

I do not think so. Remember that God did not set Israel up as a kingdom with a king. That was never their intended way to operate. God eventually suffered them kings, but all their kings were dismal failures. They could have beeen a strong Nation without a king. Instead God let them be a weak kingdom with no authority. Their strength was in their tabernacle, which then as a kingdom they demanded a Temple. Then the division between church and kingdom became blurred and they turned back to idols either way.

During captivity, Daniel prophesied that Nations would constantly rule over them even if they kept their temple and the Covenant. They were never promised to be a strong Nation ever again.

Was the church supposed to change that?

NO!!

The church was tasked to change the world and government from a grass root level. If enough people obeyed God and became disciples, control would be by a majority of people of like mind and will. The church was never to be a force of control and making people submit against their will. That is the definition of a Nation. Control of the masses by a few at the top. The church is the exact opposite. We the people capable of self control, thus a stronger form of government.

Could that have worked in 1400BC all the way up to the time of Christ? I think that it could have and Jerusalem could have been the center of power. Of course they did not let God work as history recorded. I think the church failed even more in that regard, although the church did spread the Gospel. They lost the goal of discipleship, and traded that for government. Even more so than Israel ever could.

 

[jgr]

If you believe that God won't fulfill His promises to National Israel (and since He already knew they'd fail at upholding their end, it'd mean He never truly intended to fulfill those promises, so that'd mean God was being deceptive), then you should worry about any promise He made to you.

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Not "national Israel".

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Not "national Israel".

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Not "national Israel".

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Not "national Israel".

Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Not "national Israel".


God has completely fulfilled His promises.

Not in or to "national Israel"...

But in and to Christ, and in and to those who are in Christ, His Church.

 

[Jamdoc]

The ordinance was given prior to man being created and in the beginning was the word and it was with God. So why would God not abide by his own ordinance that was before him?

So I could ask you a similar question; should you worry about the rules or ordinances God made if he himself never intended to keep them?

Not getting your meaning.
God has always been timeless. He doesn't measure time the way humans do because of that fact. God doesn't actually measure out 1 day to Him as 1000 years to us. The point Peter was making, and the point of the verse in the Psalm he was referring to (Psalm 90) is that God is timeless and our measurements of time are insignificant to Him. Not that God measures time on a different scale and doesn't abide by His own rules. There are several times where God gives literal times in our measurements, such as the 70 years of captivity.
the 69 "weeks" (really it was "70 sets of 7" rather than 70 weeks) of Daniel, with the 70th not starting yet because in the 69th Messiah was cut off... and now for the last 1900+ years we've been in the times of the gentiles.

New Jerusalem was measured at the time John wrote Revelation, and we currently have the measurements. If you want to argue over which heaven has to be measured, that’s fine, but all the other requirements for Israel not to be considered a nation have been met.

The heavenS
multiple.
Not to mention, New Jerusalem isn't the entirety of the third Heaven. It came OUT of Heaven onto earth, but it has never been the full dimensions of Heaven.
The spirit of those verses was that Israel will never cease to be a people. The fact that the Jews were preserved even after diaspora and persecution and pogroms has in the past, been used as evidence that God exists and the bible is true.
That's why I laughed, because you're looking at those verses as actually giving criteria for God ending the seed of Abraham forever.
Where I read those verses as God saying that it will NEVER end

 

[grafted branch]

Because a Day with the Lord is 1000 years on earth. Is the same time only a Day in Paradise with God? We are not told much about Paradise, but here is a thought. If there is no change at all then time is not even relevant. Now if all the change (on earth) that is seen in heaven is some sort of "live view" from earth, does change happen to them while watching those on earth? Do they watch for days, and then feel like no time has passed? Or do they look away, and the next time they view life on earth it is a thousand years later, because nothing literally changed for them while they "looked away"?

No one except perhaps Moses, Enoch/Elijah have been claimed to have entered Paradise before the Cross. So the first 4000 years, since the fall are not even relative as time in Paradise as just being 4 Days. If you take 2 Corinthians 5 and Paul's words, then literal souls have been entering Paradise and their incorruptible permanent bodies constantly for the last 1990 years or only 2 Days in Paradise.

That is how I see Peter's thoughts on his explanation of God's patience and longsuffering. Has God literally waited for 5990 years for the end of Adam's punishment? That seems to be the wrong approach. Humanity has endured 5990 years of Adam's punishment. We know humans are not patient at all.

When I made the statement that the ordinances depart from God not man, your response in post #242 implied that I must not know what being in the image of God means because we will notice the ordinances departing from God.

Now you turn around and give a long explanation of why only those who are in paradise see this.

So which is it, people on earth will know or will not know if the ordinances are removed from before God?

 

[grafted branch]

Not getting your meaning.
God has always been timeless. He doesn't measure time the way humans do because of that fact. God doesn't actually measure out 1 day to Him as 1000 years to us. The point Peter was making, and the point of the verse in the Psalm he was referring to (Psalm 90) is that God is timeless and our measurements of time are insignificant to Him. Not that God measures time on a different scale and doesn't abide by His own rules.

I completely agree that God is timeless and transcends time; but that doesn’t negate God from using the celestial movements to determine what is to be considered as a day. We know that the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars are before God at the time Jeremiah 31:36 was written.

So what you’re saying is God doesn’t measure time as we do despite the fact that his own ordinance on how time should be measured is in front of him. If this is correct then we can’t know for certain the accuracy of any time amounts given in the scriptures.

There are several times where God gives literal times in our measurements, such as the 70 years of captivity.
the 69 "weeks" (really it was "70 sets of 7" rather than 70 weeks) of Daniel, with the 70th not starting yet because in the 69th Messiah was cut off... and now for the last 1900+ years we've been in the times of the gentiles.

If there is a gap in between the 69th and 70th week then God stopped counting the days and years according to the celestial movements and he will start once again in the future. But if this is true then Israel will never be a nation before God again, which causes a circular problem because the 70th week is determined upon thy people. The most straight forward way of looking at this is that the 70 weeks were all measured using the celestial movements and transpired in a row, no gap.

The heavenS
multiple.

The KJV has the word heaven. Strong’s #8064 can be translated as either singular or plural and can have various definitions depending on the context.

I don’t think a valid argument can be made by trying to pin down the definition of heaven without examining the context.

 

[Jamdoc]

I completely agree that God is timeless and transcends time; but that doesn’t negate God from using the celestial movements to determine what is to be considered as a day. We know that the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars are before God at the time Jeremiah 31:36 was written.

So what you’re saying is God doesn’t measure time as we do despite the fact that his own ordinance on how time should be measured is in front of him. If this is correct then we can’t know for certain the accuracy of any time amounts given in the scriptures.

If there is a gap in between the 69th and 70th week then God stopped counting the days and years according to the celestial movements and he will start once again in the future. But if this is true then Israel will never be a nation before God again, which causes a circular problem because the 70th week is determined upon thy people. The most straight forward way of looking at this is that the 70 weeks were all measured using the celestial movements and transpired in a row, no gap.

The KJV has the word heaven. Strong’s #8064 can be translated as either singular or plural and can have various definitions depending on the context.

I don’t think a valid argument can be made by trying to pin down the definition of heaven without examining the context.

The context was making a new covenant with Israel and part of it involved Israel always existing as a nation.
Using those things as actual cancellation terms is rather silly since Israel has no control over those ordinances so it'd be basically God saying "they'll cease being a nation forever whenever I feel like it" since only God has control over whether or not He observes His own ordinances.
That's a bad covenant if it can be cancelled at a whim.

 

[grafted branch]

The context was making a new covenant with Israel and part of it involved Israel always existing as a nation.
Using those things as actual cancellation terms is rather silly since Israel has no control over those ordinances so it'd be basically God saying "they'll cease being a nation forever whenever I feel like it" since only God has control over whether or not He observes His own ordinances.
That's a bad covenant if it can be cancelled at a whim.

I agree here that the context is the new covenant but I disagree that it involved Israel retaining its national status with God. Romans 9:6 say they are not all Israel which are of Israel.

Colossians 3:11 says there is neither Greek nor Jew but Christ is all, and in all. I would say this is in regards to the new covenant.

So there is currently no claim a person can make in regards to their national status or lineage, even if it can be traced back to Jacob (Israel), that God will honor when it comes to salvation. If God still has some sort of plan for Israel then we either have not entered into the new covenant yet or the new covenant will somehow expire.

 

[Timtofly]

When I made the statement that the ordinances depart from God not man, your response in post #242 implied that I must not know what being in the image of God means because we will notice the ordinances departing from God.

Now you turn around and give a long explanation of why only those who are in paradise see this.

So which is it, people on earth will know or will not know if the ordinances are removed from before God?

When God changes the ordinances, those on earth will know more than we do now.

Those verses in Jeremiah were given to Israel, who did not even know the Messiah, because Jesus Christ had not been born yet.

Jesus Christ was proof that God keeps all His promises. There is still the millennium when Christ rules on earth over a restored Nation of Israel. Only after that time frame, where they will know more than we do now, will this verse come into play.

God is not finished yet with those ordinances nor the Nation of Israel.

 

[Timtofly]

If there is a gap in between the 69th and 70th week then God stopped counting the days and years according to the celestial movements and he will start once again in the future. But if this is true then Israel will never be a nation before God again, which causes a circular problem because the 70th week is determined upon thy people. The most straight forward way of looking at this is that the 70 weeks were all measured using the celestial movements and transpired in a row, no gap.

Not sure why avoiding gaps is so big of a deal. There was a gap between the first 49 years and the middle 434 years. Daniel put the gaps in as led by the Holy Spirit. The verses clearly show the 70 weeks divided into 3 sections: 7, 62, and 1.

 

[grafted branch]

Jesus Christ was proof that God keeps all His promises.

Agreed, and one of his promises is that Israel will no longer be considered a nation before him.

Not sure why avoiding gaps is so big of a deal. There was a gap between the first 49 years and the middle 434 years. Daniel put the gaps in as led by the Holy Spirit. The verses clearly show the 70 weeks divided into 3 sections: 7, 62, and 1.

So would you agree then that God stopped using the ordinance of the sun, moon, and stars in order to insert the gaps?

 

[Timtofly]

Agreed, and one of his promises is that Israel will no longer be considered a nation before him.

So would you agree then that God stopped using the ordinance of the sun, moon, and stars in order to insert the gaps?

Well Christ is not going to abandon Israel until God removes reality, and nothing will change that.

The gaps were inserted for a purpose. Not because God stopped the ordinances.

The gaps are not even because God abandoned Israel. Without faith and trust it is impossible to please God. God keeps His promises, even when humans displease God. That is why Jeremiah did not present God's relationship with Israel on Israel alone. Not that doing wickedness is excusable. God will not abandon Israel because of their wickedness. God will not bless them (on account of the Covenant with Moses), but will bring them back to God in His proper time, because of His promise recorded in Jeremiah.

 

[grafted branch]

Well Christ is not going to abandon Israel until God removes reality, and nothing will change that.

If someone who claims to be a Jew, or any individual for that matter, that is unable to discern the scriptures to the point that false doctrines are readily believed, would you say God has removed reality from them?

 

[Douggg]

How does God identify "national Israel"?

1. Physical DNA
2. Babylonian talmudism
3. Culture
4. ?

By bringing them back to the land of Israel from which which they were lead away captive into the nations as prophesied by Jesus in Luke 21:24.

The longing to return to the land of Israel has been passed down generation to generation of them who are Jews.

 

[jgr]

By bringing them back to the land of Israel from which which they were lead away captive into the nations as prophesied by Jesus in Luke 21:24.

The longing to return to the land of Israel has been passed down generation to generation of them who are Jews.

By which of the aforecited characteristics does God identify "them" and "they" and "Jews"?

 

[Douggg]

By which of the aforecited characteristics does God identify "them" and "they" and "Jews"?

What characteristics?

 

[jgr]

What characteristics?

I agree. God doesn't identify the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) by any of them.