Third temple being build in Jerusalem right now

[Timtofly]

If someone who claims to be a Jew, or any individual for that matter, that is unable to discern the scriptures to the point that false doctrines are readily believed, would you say God has removed reality from them?

No.

Why would God remove on individual merit, reality?

Are you referring to a mind that is totally reprobate? Those the world would call sociopaths who have lost touch with reality?

 

[grafted branch]

Well Christ is not going to abandon Israel until God removes reality, and nothing will change that.

Why would God remove on individual merit, reality?

You stated that Israel will be abandoned once God removes reality and now your asking why God would remove reality?

Are you referring to a mind that is totally reprobate? Those the world would call sociopaths who have lost touch with reality?

I agree that there are people who have lost touch with reality.

There is the reality of the Bible and there is also the reality of the physical world in which we live in. Which reality are you talking about?

If someone compares the news (physical temple being built) with the scriptures their perception or discernment is different than someone who compares scripture (our body is the temple) with scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

You stated that Israel will be abandoned once God removes reality and now your asking why God would remove reality?

I agree that there are people who have lost touch with reality.

There is the reality of the Bible and there is also the reality of the physical world in which we live in. Which reality are you talking about?

If someone compares the news (physical temple being built) with the scriptures their perception or discernment is different than someone who compares scripture (our body is the temple) with scripture.

You asked if a single individual human would have reality removed just for them.

Our bodies as sons of God was the temple since the 6th Day of Creation.

That reality changed when Adam brought sin and physical death into the world. I think spiritual death happened at the Flood. Adam was not the sole son of God. There were other sons of God who had offspring with Adam's descendants but that ended at the Flood.

We as redeemed from the Atonement of the Cross are in that reality because we accept and choose to be. The physical and spiritual reality does not change until physical death. The Holy Spirit is the only change in reality if we submit to the Holy Spirit. What God does with Israel is separate from even Adam's sin and death. The Law of Moses was a physical representation with the yearly visit of God's shikinah glory equally among all of Israel as a Nation, not just individually to those who did not reject God's Covenant. The sins of one did affect the whole group, as in Achan disobeying at Jericho. Joshua 7.

Now (NT economy) God works individually as well as corporately because where 2 or 3 are gathered in God's name, God is there with them.

But you apply the ordinance of the laws of creation to a single nation, and base reality on them, that does not mean God is going to end either, until a specifically set time. So this change in reality is not based on anything any human can do or will do.

Just because most humans do not see spiritual creation does not mean the spiritual and physical are not the same and equal to God. It is sin and the knowledge of good and evil that has caused this separating effect. It was not God separating the two. It was just God allowing sin to come between the reality humanity accepts and the reality that actually exists.

 

[grafted branch]

But you apply the ordinance of the laws of creation to a single nation,

Doesn’t the verse itself apply to a single nation? Do you think Jeremiah 31:36 should be interpreted as “all nations will cease from being a nation before me forever”?

and base reality on them

Which reality do you think I’m basing this off of?

So this change in reality is not based on anything any human can do or will do.

Agreed. We need to look at God, which is His word, to find understanding here.

 

[Timtofly]

Doesn’t the verse itself apply to a single nation? Do you think Jeremiah 31:36 should be interpreted as “all nations will cease from being a nation before me forever”?

Which reality do you think I’m basing this off of?

Agreed. We need to look at God, which is His word, to find understanding here.

God only has one Nation.

 

[parousia70]

What characteristics?

The ones you already quoted in your post quoting @jgr :

How does God identify "national Israel"?

1. Physical DNA
2. Babylonian talmudism
3. Culture
4. ?

I too am curious.
Which of these does God use to Identify who is National Israel and Who isn't?

As WE Identify Todays "National Israel" we know it is made up of people from many different ethnic backgrounds and many different religions, or no religion at all..It is truly a veritable "Melting Pot".

Are the Arab Muslim Citizens of National Israel today Considered by God to be "National Israel"?
Are the Arab Christian Citizens of National Israel today Considered by God to be "National Israel"?
Are the European, Secular Citizens of National Israel today Considered by God to be "National Israel"?
Are the African Talmudic Citizens of National Israel today Considered by God to be "National Israel"?

Which ones does God say are National Israel today?
All of them perhaps?
Again, what Criteria do you say God uses?

As far as the criteria Human Beings use, we know that ALL the aforementioned groups of Present Citizens of National Israel today that I cited (and any other citizens of that nation) are undeniably, correctly, factually, identified and Identifiable By national Israel's own Identification as "National Israel" today.

Would you agree?

Does Today's National Israel identify itself The Same Way God Identifies them?
Or do they have it wrong somehow?

 

[Timtofly]

Does Today's National Israel identify itself The Same Way God Identifies them?
Or do they have it wrong somehow?

God identified God as of Israel through His mother Mary. For obvious reasons, as men cannot carry a child, at least not practically.

Did it matter to God who the father was?

This is not some political point, but it seems that just after sin is addressed, we are given a long list of male descendants. That is how sin is passed down, but is that how ethnicity is passed down? Even the Bible points out that certain different ethnic woman were placed into the genetic line, yet it is by the mother that an ethnic Jew is determined today.

 

[parousia70]

Even the Bible points out that certain different ethnic woman were placed into the genetic line, yet it is by the mother that an ethnic Jew is determined today.

Determined by who?

And I'm more interested in determining who is "National Israel" and How is that determined?
For as you correctly pointed out, and as the modern State of Israel professes, Ethnicity is not the determining factor for identifying who is "National Israel" and who isn't.

 

[jgr]

God identified God as of Israel through His mother Mary. For obvious reasons, as men cannot carry a child, at least not practically.

Did it matter to God who the father was?

This is not some political point, but it seems that just after sin is addressed, we are given a long list of male descendants. That is how sin is passed down, but is that how ethnicity is passed down? Even the Bible points out that certain different ethnic woman were placed into the genetic line, yet it is by the mother that an ethnic Jew is determined today.

The nation of Israel was multi-ethnic from its birth (Genesis 17:12) and throughout its history (Exodus 12:48;Exodus 12:49;Leviticus 19:34;Leviticus 24:22).

Physical DNA was of no significance. So what was?

Could that be two genes of spiritual DNA?

Faith and obedience.

Yes.

And nothing else.

 

[keras]

God only has one Nation.

The one that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21-43

This simple verse destroys any ideas of the Jewish State of Israel being anything special in God's eyes. They are just like all the other secular nations.
But the real nation for God, every faithful Christian person; is still scattered among the nations. Soon to be gathered into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 30 and 31

 

[eclipsenow]

Israel wasn't back in their land for the past 2000 years. All these signs happened since Israel came back in 1948.
The return of Jews in the land of their fathers (Joel 3:1-2) ‘For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem

Fails to understand OT prophets talking about Israel's return to the land under Persia.

Revelation 12: 1 appeared on 23rd September 2017. This sign appeared on the sky for two nights. And John described this sign 2000 years ago.

Oh dear! Fails to understand the basic gospel flashback that this chapter is! It's not PROPHECY but gospel - Mary and Jesus and Satan chasing them down to Egypt. It's a flashBACK, not a flashforward.

Isaiah 17:1 ‘An oracle concerning Damascus. Behold, Damascus will cease to be a city and will become a heap of ruins.’ Isaiah 17:7 ‘In that day man will look to his Maker, and his eyes will look on the Holy One of Israel.’ Isaiah 17:12-14 ‘Woe to the many nations that rage-- they rage like the raging sea! Woe to the peoples who roar-- they roar like the roaring of great waters! Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters, when he rebukes them, they flee far away, driven before the wind like chaff on the hills, like tumbleweed before a gale. In the evening, sudden terror! Before the morning, they are gone! This is the portion of those who loot us, the lot of those who plunder us.’

There's a lot of gospel picture language in the OT, and a lot of heavenly picture language about Jesus in heaven. Learning to discern which is which is based on biblical theology and understanding the symbolism.

But basically, everything is done in Jesus gospel events and we are just waiting on his final return and judgement day - all at once. There's no warning, no prelude, no prophetic events to unlock or decode like some end-times version of a Dan Brown novel. It's all done.

So how would Matthew 24 fit into all this? Surely the Abomination is part of the end-times?

Not so fast.

Our minister delivered a cracker of a sermon on the abomination part of Matthew 24. What is the abomination? What is the Son of man on the clouds? He doesn't cover every single detail, but it's a good introduction to the Sydney Anglican position on this chapter. (It's a youth service so I've keyed it to the bible readings and then the sermon.) I can't wait for the next half of Matthew 24 this Sunday!

 

[eclipsenow]

God only has one Nation.

Absolute heresy and you need to repent.

Right from the start, the promise to Abraham was going to bless the whole world.

Jesus talked about having other sheep.

Jesus sent the apostles out to ALL nations.

Acts saw the Jews accepting the Gentiles.

Romans and Galatians and Hebrews show how Christianity fulfils Judaism, bringing both Jew and Greek into the one KINGDOM (yes, there's only one KINGDOM) which includes all nations.

Acts 1:8
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”



Revelation 7:9
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

 

[Timtofly]

Absolute heresy and you need to repent.

Right from the start, the promise to Abraham was going to bless the whole world.

Jesus talked about having other sheep.

Jesus sent the apostles out to ALL nations.

Acts saw the Jews accepting the Gentiles.

Romans and Galatians and Hebrews show how Christianity fulfils Judaism, bringing both Jew and Greek into the one KINGDOM (yes, there's only one KINGDOM) which includes all nations.

Acts 1:8
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”



Revelation 7:9
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

The church is not a Nation. How did you get that from those words? God did not give His name to every Nation on earth. God gave His name to Jacob, not even Abraham or Isaac.

The church is not even citizens of earth. They belong to a different country and place. They are citizens of Paradise. You left out references from Hebrews.

 

[jgr]

God only has one Nation.

Right. This one:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

His Church.

 

[eclipsenow]

The church is not a Nation.

See JGR's post above.
Read Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews about 10 times each.
Then you'll get it.

 

[BABerean2]

The one that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21-43

This simple verse destroys any ideas of the Jewish State of Israel being anything special in God's eyes. They are just like all the other secular nations.
But the real nation for God, every faithful Christian person; is still scattered among the nations. Soon to be gathered into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 30 and 31

Are you promoting British-Israelism?

If you are, which tribe do you think you belong to?

What did Paul say about genealogies in Titus 3:9?

.

 

[Timtofly]

Right. This one:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

His Church.

No, because the church is not part of this world. You can call Paradise a Nation, but it is in heaven, not on earth.

 

[Timtofly]

See JGR's post above.
Read Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews about 10 times each.
Then you'll get it.

If you are into replacement theology, go for it. This world is going to burn up, yet you insist this is it?

 

[eclipsenow]

If you are into replacement theology, go for it.

It's not replacement theology but covenant theology, and it's more subtle than saying "the church replaces Israel" but rather "the church is what Israel was always meant to become, both Jew and Greek."
More here
Does Anyone Actually Believe in Replacement Theology? - The Gospel Coalition | Canada

This world is going to burn up, yet you insist this is it?

Um, what?
I think you've got a strawman stuck in your head rather than Covenant Theology.

 

[Timtofly]

It's not replacement theology but covenant theology, and it's more subtle than saying "the church replaces Israel" but rather "the church is what Israel was always meant to become, both Jew and Greek."
More here
Does Anyone Actually Believe in Replacement Theology? - The Gospel Coalition | Canada


Um, what?
I think you've got a strawman stuck in your head rather than Covenant Theology.

No. God has a Nation on earth, and that Nation has been set to the side. That Nation will return one day.

The church is in Paradise and will remain there for ever. Revelation 7

“Day and night they serve him in his Temple;
and the One who sits on the throne
will put his Sh’khinah upon them.

16 “They will never again be hungry,
they will never again be thirsty,
the sun will not beat down on them,
nor will any burning heat.

There is no sun in Paradise. It is not an earthly Nation.

You reject there will be a Nation on the earth. But there will be. It will not be the church.