THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

[Butch5]

But not as scripture. 1 Enoch has always been recognized as scripture by the Ethiopian Jews and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and there is strong evidence in the form of the Dead Sea Scrolls that it was widely used as scripture in ancient Israel.

How do you know he's quoting the book of Enoch? Maybe Jude and the writer of Enoch are both quoting from another source.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Again, none of the quotes you supplied refute my point.

Sorry dear friend I respectfully disagree and believe the scriptures provided in the many posts on page one speak for themselves. If you disagree of course your welcome to prove why you disagree with the scriptures provided in page one of this OP. It is the scriptures therefore as shown in the OP therefore I believe that absolutely, refute opinions if our opinions are in disagreement with scriptures. In reply to the OP all you have provided here is your opinion which is you quoting you, unsupported by any scripture to prove your claims. According to the scriptures only Gods' Word is true and our words and opinions do not really mean much in God's eyes (Romans 3:4). Our opinions do not supersede scriptures. It is the other way around. So as to your claims here I guess we will agree to disagree.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

As for “sleep” it can also be interpreted as “rest.”

In the Hebrew and Greek words meanings do not supersede context and subject matter in the interpretation of the scriptures. Subject matter and context determine word meanings and application of the Greek and Hebrew words that can have many meanings. For example;
JOHN 11:11-13 11, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, OUR FRIEND LAZARUS SLEEPS; BUT I GO, THAT I MAY AWAKE HIM OUT OF SLEEP. 12, Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13, HOWBEIT JESUS SPAKE OF HIS DEATH: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14, Then said JESUS UNTO THEM PLAINLY, LAZARUS IS DEAD.

Ultimately what matters most is what the early Church thought the Bible meant, since they were the disciples of the Holy Apostles. But in this case, the scripture is conclusive in its own right without even requiring Patristic recourse.

I have no faith in so called "early Church" fathers that teach against the scriptures so your appeal to these or outside sources over scripture have no weight in my eyes when according to the scriptures, only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29. As posted earlier our opinions do not really mean much in God's eyes and even less if they deny His Word. We should not believe the teachings and words of men over the Word of God.

Take Care.

 

[The Liturgist]

How do you know he's quoting the book of Enoch? Maybe Jude and the writer of Enoch are both quoting from another source.

If that were the case, we would expect to see more substantial textual variation between the Epistle of Jude and the Book of Enoch, and also documentary evidence of the other source either in the Ethiopian libraries or the Qumran Caves. Since no one mentions such a document, and since the consensus of all the early church fathers and the major reformers like Martin Luther is that Jude was quoting Enoch (indeed Luther put Jude in the Antilegomenna because of the Enoch reference, and wanted to delete it outright), I think this is highly unlikely.

Of course we can’t absolutely disprove your hypothesis, but in scholarship, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there is no evidence to support your hypothesis.

 

[The Liturgist]

I have no faith in so called "early Church" fathers that teach against the scriptures

Nor do I, but those aren’t the bona fide early Church Fathers whose writings I follow. I mean obviously, no one trusts Arius, but SDA theology is completely dependent on St. Athanasius, the main opponent of Arius, as I outlined in a previous post (since it was Athanasius who insisted, contra mundum, that Revelation was canonical).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Nor do I, but those aren’t the bona fide early Church Fathers whose writings I follow. I mean obviously, no one trusts Arius, but SDA theology is completely dependent on St. Athanasius, the main opponent of Arius, as I outlined in a previous post (since it was Athanasius who insisted, contra mundum, that Revelation was canonical).

Not true. We only follow Gods' Word as our only standard of what truth is. There is only safety in the scriptures in my view (Romans 3:4) asking God to be our guide and teacher and asking for His Spirit to lead us *John 14:26; John 7:17; John 16:13 etc etc...

 

[FredVB]

A body which just died is likened to a sleeping person, so it was an expression not too uncommon, and Jesus who knew of the expression was certain to use it generally. There is promise for believers, to die physically is to be with the Lord right then. It would not be with their body, that won't be until the time of the bodily resurrection, but it would be with their manifested spirits. The resurrected body will be transformed to something really new.

 

[Butch5]

Not true. We only follow Gods' Word as our only standard of what truth is. There is only safety in the scriptures in my view (Romans 3:4) asking God to be our guide and teacher and asking for His Spirit to lead us *John 14:26; John 7:17; John 16:13 etc etc...

We're only following God's word if we understand it correctly. Many, if not most, don't understand it correctly.

 

[SkyWriting]

We're only following God's word if we understand it correctly. Many, if not most, don't understand it correctly.

Because we don't even know the language Jesus was speaking at any given time you mean?

 

[Butch5]

Because we don't even know the language Jesus was speaking at any given time you mean?

No. If we misunderdrand what is being said, then the Bible isn't saying what we think it is. When we say, the Bible says xyz, we assume that our understanding of it is correct. For instance, many claim that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is about the state of the dead. If, however, Jesus meant something completely different than that then the Bible isn't teaching that dead believers go to Abraham's bosom. And, the people who make that claim are wrong because they are misunderstanding the parable

 

[Butch5]

If that were the case, we would expect to see more substantial textual variation between the Epistle of Jude and the Book of Enoch, and also documentary evidence of the other source either in the Ethiopian libraries or the Qumran Caves. Since no one mentions such a document, and since the consensus of all the early church fathers and the major reformers like Martin Luther is that Jude was quoting Enoch (indeed Luther put Jude in the Antilegomenna because of the Enoch reference, and wanted to delete it outright), I think this is highly unlikely.

Of course we can’t absolutely disprove your hypothesis, but in scholarship, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there is no evidence to support your hypothesis.

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for the reply. I see your point, but would also point out that a lack of evidence supporting my hypothesis doesn't mean it's false or proof that the opposite is true. I guess all we can really do is speculate

 

[The Liturgist]

Thanks for the reply. I see your point, but would also point out that a lack of evidence supporting my hypothesis doesn't mean it's false or proof that the opposite is true. I guess all we can really do is speculate

That is correct. And this falls within that realm.

By the way @SkyWriting our Lord spoke Gallilean Aramaic, and there was a member here, @SteveCaruso , who made some very interesting posts about it I read when searching old threads on Aramaic, but I think he is no longer active sadly.

 

[The Liturgist]

.

 

[Skye1300]

Very interesting thread! I have always believed that no one goes to heaven or hell till the final judgement. And yes Jesus and the Bible does refer to death as sleep many times. And sleep does mean you will wake back up.

 

[Butch5]

Very interesting thread! I have always believed that no one goes to heaven or hell till the final judgement. And yes Jesus and the Bible does refer to death as sleep many times. And sleep does mean you will wake back up.

I think that's why the Bible refers to death as sleep. Just as you said, when you sleep you do wake up. Likewise, when people die they will be raised in the resurrection. In that sense death is like sleep

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Very interesting thread! I have always believed that no one goes to heaven or hell till the final judgement. And yes Jesus and the Bible does refer to death as sleep many times. And sleep does mean you will wake back up.

Hi Skye nice to meet you and nice to see someone who reads the bible for themselves.

God bless

 

[Skye1300]

Hi Skye nice to meet you and nice to see someone who reads the bible for themselves.

God bless

Thanks! Nice to meet you too!

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Hi zoider,

The early Church like Judaism has held both views for or against the state of the dead and immortality of the soul. So your best staying with the scriptures as shown in the OP as they go back thousands of years before the Church and the earliest records of the Church in the very words of Jesus and the Apostles which are scripture (God's Word) as shown in the OP.

The earliest example however that I know of is that of Tatian where I will put the original source out of interest.

Tatian of Adiabene,[1] or Tatian the Syrian[2][3][4] or Tatian the Assyrian,[5][6][7][8] (/ˈteɪʃən, -iən/; Latin: Tatianus; Ancient Greek: Τατιανός; Classical Syriac: ܛܛܝܢܘܣ‎; c. 120 – c. 180 AD) was an Assyrian Christian writer and theologian of the 2nd century. (Wiki)

THEORY OF THE SOUL'S IMMORTALITY.

"The soul is not in itself immortal... If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality. But, again, if it acquires the knowledge of God, it dies not, although for a time it be dissolved."

The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality. But, again, if it acquires the knowledge of God, it dies not, although for a time it be dissolved. In itself it is darkness, and there is nothing luminous in it. And this is the meaning of the saying, "The darkness comprehendeth not the light." For the soul does not preserve the spirit, but is preserved by it, and the light comprehends the darkness. The Logos, in truth, is the light of God, but the ignorant soul is darkness. On this account, if it continues solitary, it tends downward towards matter, and dies with the flesh; but, if it enters into union with the Divine Spirit, it is no longer helpless, but ascends to the regions whither the Spirit guides it: for the dwelling-place of the spirit is above, but the origin of the soul is from beneath. Now, in the beginning the spirit was a constant companion of the soul, but the spirit forsook it because it was not willing to follow. Yet, retaining as it were a spark of its power, though unable by reason of the separation to discern the perfect, while seeking for God it fashioned to itself in its wandering many gods, following the sophistries of the demons. But the Spirit of God is not with all, but, taking up its abode with those who live justly, and intimately combining with the soul, by prophecies it announced hidden things to other souls. And the souls that are obedient to wisdom have attracted to themselves the cognate spirit; but the disobedient, rejecting the minister of the suffering God, have shown themselves to be fighters against God, rather than His worshippers.

(Tatian's Address to the Greeks". CHAP. XIII)

God bless.

"
CHAP. XII.--THE TWO KINDS OF SPIRITS.

We recognise two varieties of spirit, one of which is called the soul (yukh), but the other is greater than the soul, an image and likeness of God: both existed in the first men, that in one sense they might be material (ulikoi), and in another superior to matter. The case stands thus: we can see that the whole structure of the world, and the whole creation, has been produced from matter, and the matter itself brought into existence by God; so that on the one hand it may be regarded as rude and unformed before it was separated into parts, and on the other as arranged in beauty and order after the separation was made."
Tatian's Address to the Greeks (Roberts-Donaldson)

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The Assumption of Moses is non-canonical - it asserts that the devil disputed about the BODY of Moses

True, someone in the N.T. used that source.