THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

[JLHargus]

LoveGodsWord: The Bible suggests that King David will be in God’s kingdom, but that he is in his grave now, where he awaits the resurrection.

JL: [Act2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.]KJV

Yes, scripture says David’s grave, sepulchre is still with us today. It is possible David's bones are still around and his body returned to dust, till the resurrection when Christ returns. When David died his soul went to Hell=sheol=hades. All souls of the bodily dead went to either Abraham's bosom, a place of comfort or to a chamber of torment. Even Christ's soul descended into Hell, Abraham's bosom where he preached to the just, bodily dead.

No soul went to heaven before Christ ascended, although there may be exceptions. David's soul was most likely taken into heaven when Christ ascended. If Hell=Sheol=Hades is only a grave or tomb, where a dead body is placed, why does verse 27 say thou wilt not leave my soul in hell. Shouldn't it say, my soul=breath of life went to God who gave it, can the soul=breath of life be buried in a grave?

[Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?]KJV

Was Christ buried in a grave so deep as the lower part of the earth? Could a dead body descend to the lower part of the earth? A dead body could not descend but could only be lowered by others into a grave, especially a grave as deep as the lower part of the earth. It was Christ's soul that descended to the lower part of the earth. I don't know anyone that has buried a body in a grave to the lower part of the earth, do you? We know Christ's body was placed in a tomb above ground, his body did not descend into that tomb it was placed there by men. Only Christ's soul=spirit could descend to the lower part of the earth where He preached to the spirits of the bodily dead in Sheol as scripture clearly teaches.

If a body is removed from a grave or tomb and abandoned on the ground, is it then removed from Sheol=Hades=Hell? No, if I remove a body from a grave or tomb and abandon that body on the ground, then the body is no longer in the grave or tomb, is it? A body can be removed from the grave by any man. No man but the Man Jesus ever removed a soul=spirit from Hell, Hades, Sheol.

[1Pt4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.]KJV

[Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) ]KJV

[Acts1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.]KJV

The souls=spirits of the just were taken into heaven when Christ ascended, their souls were captives in Hades, till taken into heaven when Christ ascended. Now we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.

[Hb12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.]KJV

[Hb12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]KJV

[Rv4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.]KJV

Twenty four elders would be the souls=spirits of just men made perfect, probably the twelve OT Patriarchs and twelve Apostles.

[Jms1:11 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.]KJV


LoveGodsWord: 6. Do good people go to heaven when they die?

JL: No, good human beings do not go to heaven when they die? Their dead body is buried usually in the ground, where the body decomposes. Their life force=immortal soul=spirit goes back to God who gave it, for judgement. After judgement the saved immortal spirit goes into heaven or temporarily to purgatory.

The souls=spirits of the lost also go back to God for their particular judgement, then to the Hell of torment, which will be thrown into the lake of fire after the resurrection and the Last Judgement. All human beings both saved and unsaved with their resurrected bodies will be present at the last judgement. Scripture explicitly confirms spirits=souls of just men are in heavenly Jerusalem with the Lord.

[Hb12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]KJV

[Rv4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.]KJV

Twenty four elders would be the souls=spirits of just men made perfect, probably the twelve OT Patriarchs and twelve Apostles.

[Hb12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.]KJV

Before Christ all spirits went to Sheol=Hebrew, Hades=Greek, Hell=English after their particular judgement. They went to either Abraham's bosom, a place of comfort or the place of torment, as Christ clearly taught in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

[Lk16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.]KJV

[Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) ]KJV

When Christ ascended he opened heaven taking the just souls in Abraham's bosom into heaven.
[Hb12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.]KJV
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[JLHargus]

LoveGodsWord: “If I wait, the grave is mine house” (Job 17:13 KJV).

JL: [Job17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. 14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. 15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? 16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.]KJV

Job is asking if hope will go with him in death. He answers in Job19:25-27, He knew his redeemer lived and he would see God in his flesh.

[Job19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.]KJV

The Jewish people didn't have a complete understanding of life after death, it was still developing when the true light of the world Jesus Christ revealed it in its fullness.

[Acts23:7 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. 7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. 8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. 9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.]KJV

LoveGodsWord: No. People do not go to heaven or to hell at death. They don’t go anywhere—but they wait in their graves for the resurrection.

JL: It was Christ's soul=life force that descended to the lower part of the earth and preached to the souls of the bodily dead in Abraham's bosom. Those just souls who awaited their savior. his body certainly didn't descend to the lower part of the earth, his body was placed in a tomb above ground by men?

[2Cor5: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.]KJV

What is our earthly house? It is our earthly body, which tabernacles=clothes our soul. According to Paul a soul is naked without the body, earnestly desiring to be clothed with it's house from heaven=our glorified resurrected body.

[Lk23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.]KJV See 62 English translations Luke 23:43 - Bible Gateway

Where did Christ's soul, and the good thief's soul go that day? To Paradise, Abraham's bosom, where Christ's soul descended and He preached to the just souls of the bodily dead.

[1Pt4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick=[living] and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.]KJV

[Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) ]KJV

When Christ ascended he opened heaven taking the just souls in Abraham's bosom into heaven.

LoveGodsWord: How much does one know or comprehend after death? “The living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun. … There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10).

JL: After the revelations of Jesus' we do know the dead will have more reward. For those in Christ, their reward is eternal life, those not in Christ eternal damnation.

You quote:[Eccl9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.]KJV

I agree they have no part or work forever in anything in this world=done under the sun. The new heaven and new earth will not have a sun.

[Rv21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.]KJV

You quote: [Eccl9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.]KJV

Yes, whatever good one can do, do it with thy might while alive on earth, where work, device=planning, knowledge and wisdom can merit a reward in the next life. After death we no longer can merit a reward for any of those.

Trying to override NT revelations of Christ with the OT, especially Ecclesiastes is like driving a car looking out the back window. Before Christ revelation was in part. Christ delivered the fullness of revelation with the gospel.

LoveGodsWord: “The dead do not praise the Lord” (Psalm 115:17).

JL: [ Ps115:1 Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake. 2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? 3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6-16 .... 17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. 18 But we will bless the Lord from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the Lord.]KJV

Ps115 is speaking about living heathen=unbelievers, they are spiritually dead, they praise not the Lord. They have mouths, eyes, ears, hands and so forth. Decayed bodies only have bones.

[Jn11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?]KJV

LoveGodsWord: “All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth” (John 5:28, 29).

JL: Amen, When their soul, their Life now in heaven with the Lord is once again clothed with their resurrected glorified body.

[Jn5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.]KJV

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[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord: Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Hello JL it is a little hard to follow your posts here as you have not provided any links to my posts you are quoting from, so I do not know the context of what your posting here. Can you go back through your posts and kindly add the links to what you are quoting from so I can examine the context and respond accordingly? All I can see in your posts here is an opinion of what you think certain scripture means without addressing any scripture that is in contradiction to what you saying those scriptures means. So if you can provide some links to my posts you are quoting from to show context I will be able to respond better.

Many thanks

 

[Davy]

No one said you had to. It was a request. Your understanding of those passages isn't proof that your umderstamding of those passages is correct.

Those Scriptures I listed stand as proof to what I said. They are not that difficult to understand, that is, for one who is familiar with simple English. Trying to rewrite Scripture by different interpretations of the meaning of the Greek words is what is fallacy, for it's just an attempt to stray from the actual CONTEXT of the Scriptures, while even falsely using... the idea that one is staying in context!

What you're 'trying'... to do, is insert an agenda from men, and NOT read those Scriptures in their simplicity, but instead turn them around backwards, in order to serve those men's agenda you follow.

I really have no need to explain those New Testament witnesses of our spirit-soul continuing after flesh death. They are self-explanatory. But I can explain them in simplicity, as they are written... as when they all are put together, IN CONTEXT, their meaning is very simple about the continuance of the soul-spirit after flesh death.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV

We know that "soul" idea there is about more than just simply 'air', because 1 Peter 3 & 4 showed about Jesus going to the "spirits in prison" and preaching The Gospel to those who had died in their sins, so that they could live in the 'spirit' unto God...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Live according to God "in the spirit"??? Yeah! Our spirit-soul continues life into that other dimension when our flesh dies. Lord Jesus even showed this here...

Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom."
43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise."
KJV

That was the malefactor crucified on the cross that believed on Jesus while hanging on His cross. It doesn't require a brain surgeon to decipher what Jesus declared there to him, that on that day that believer would be in Paradise with Jesus, meaning in the heavenly dimension after both had died on their cross.

Phil 1:23-24
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
KJV

That was Apostle Paul speaking to the brethren. His idea of his desire to depart to be with Christ he is comparing to staying in the flesh. Context??? EASY! We know at that time Jesus was at the right hand of The Father's Throne, even as it still is today. So Paul wanting to depart to be with Christ has NO OTHER CONTEXT than Paul being ready for flesh death so his soul-spirit would be with Christ in the heavenly!!

Did Paul show this kind of idea of the ability for our spirit to be in the heavenly after flesh death elsewhere? YEAH!!! 2 Corinthians 5 was a strong example he gave!

2 Cor 5:1-8
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV

Paul's latter declaration - to be absent from our flesh body means to be present with The Lord. That's the context!

End of debate. The Scripture is simple.

 

[SkyWriting]

The doctrine of purgatory, eternal burning Hell or heaven once we die is a false teaching that has led many away from the scriptures to the teachings of men that is not biblical. God bless...

Even if that were true, it wouldn't be our problem to fix.

 

[JohnD70X7]

THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD - WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?

Hi all hope for a friendly discussion please based on the scriptures.

I see that there seems to be some confusion on what the scriptures actually teach on what happens when we die. So what is the state of the dead? Do we remain dead until the second coming where there the the scriptures teach those who have died in Christ will be resurrected? Or do we go to heaven when we die? These of course are contradictions in themselves.

According to the scriptures death is referred to by Jesus as a sleep which is a metaphor for death that we awake from at the second coming's resurrection. So what does the bible teach on the state of the dead? I will post some of the scriptures on what I believe happens when we die and we can investigate all of the other scriptures on what others might think it means (hoping for friendly discussion please)

WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD OR WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE?

JOHN 11:11-13 11, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, OUR FRIEND LAZARUS SLEEPS; BUT I GO, THAT I MAY AWAKE HIM OUT OF SLEEP. 12, Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13, HOWBEIT JESUS SPAKE OF HIS DEATH: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14, Then said JESUS UNTO THEM PLAINLY, LAZARUS IS DEAD.

Jesus says that death is like a sleep and a metaphor for death we wake up out from when he resurrects us. This is a key scripture here so I separated this scripture from all the scriptures provided below from the old and new testaments that describe what happens when we die...

(Note: I might ask some questions here but I am not going to provide the answers on purpose here because it is best if you can prayerfully ask God and see the answers in the scriptures provided for yourself)...

Here is a list of a lot of scriptures you may want to investigate on the topic of the state of the dead or soul sleep or what happens when we die according to the scriptures if your interested and have some time if this topic is new to you...

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ON WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE?
(you find the answers prayerfully from the scriptures below)

Death is referred to as a sleep which is a metaphor for death in scripture...

A.: [To be dead or in death is referred to as a sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead/asleep] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

The dead do not know anything in sleep until Jesus returns...

B.: [The dead knowing nothing] Genesis 27:4, 45:28; Ruth 1:17; Job 3:17-19, 7:8-10, 14:21, 21:32; 2 Kings 22:20; 2 Chronicles 34:28; Psalms 6:5, 28:1, 31:17, 88:4,10,11, 115:17, 143:7, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6,10; Isaiah 14:11, 38:18; [reserved] 2 Peter 2:9; [He goes to prepare a place, so that when He comes again, 2nd Advent, He will raise us and receive us] John 14:2-3

When we die we go to the grave...

C.: [The dead are in the grave/s], sepulchre/s, tomb/s, pit/s, hell [ie Hb: sheol; Gr: hades; grave]]Genesis 23:6, 35:20, 37:35, 44:29,31, 50:5; Exodus 14:11; Numbers 16:30, 19:16,18; Deuteronomy 34:6; Judges 8:32, 1 Samuel 2:6, 10:2; 2 Samuel 3:32, 4:10, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14, 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9, 13:22,30,31, 14:13; 2 Kings 9:28, 13:21, 21:26, 22:20, 23:6,16,17,30; 2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24; Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16; Job 3:17-19,22, 5:26, 7:8-10, 10:19, 11:8, 14:12-14,21, 17:1,13,16, 21:13,23-32, 24:19, 26:6, 30:24, 33:22; Psalms 5:9, 6:5, 18:5, 28:1, 30:3, 31:17, 35:7, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3,4,5-12, 89:48, 94:13, 115:17, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7, 143:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16; Ecclesiastes 6:6, 9:10; Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15,19, 22:16, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 53:9, 57:9, 65:4; Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 26:23, 20:17; Ezekiel 26:20, 31:15-17, 32:18,21-27, 37:12,13, 39:11; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2 [<- figurative, typological]; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Matthew 8:8, 11:23, 23:27,29, 27:52,53,60,61,64,66, 28:8; Mark 5:2,3,5, 6:29, 15:46, 16:2,3,5,8; Luke 8:27, 10:15, 11:47,48, 23:53,55, 24:1,2,9,12,22,24; John 5:28, 11:31,38, 12:17, 19:41,42, 20:1-4,6,8,11; Acts 2:29,34, 7:16, 13:29,36; Romans 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18, 11:9, 20:13,14

Righteous and dead in Christ are raised to life at the second coming...

D.: [Those in Christ resurrected from the grave/death/sleep at the second coming]1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 1 Corinthians 15:50-55; Philippians 3:10-11; Danial 12:2

Wicked resurrected to the 2nd death...

E.: [2nd death from which there is no life, nor resurrection, nor return - annihilation] Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8

The wicked in the second death are destroyed and forever...

F.: [sin/sinners gone forever, cut off, perished, no more, destroyed, passed away, etc] Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 25:8, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 7:17, 20:9, 21:4
John 3:16 says Perish or Everlasting Life [the wicked receive no such gift as everlasting life [there are no immortalized wicked anywhere and never will be], it is only a gift to the saved/just/righteous].

Additionally, it is the righteous who will dwell with everlasting burnings (Isaiah 33:14), for God is a consuming fire [to sin and of Love] (Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29) and His ministers a flame of fire (Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7) and His Throne of Fire (Daniel 7:9; Revelation 4:5) and His speech fire (2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8) for He is a purifying fire (Malachi 3:3) and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire (Revelation 15:2), and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed (Exodus 3:3), not the wicked [they are burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished.

..................

Why you might be asking is the above topic important to understand? Well it is very important as it leads into a correct understanding of the resurrection and God's judgement and what happens at the second coming as well as prepares us to be ready to avoid the great deceptions from Satan that will happen just prior to when Jesus returns so we can be prepared to meet Jesus and remain faithful to the end. The doctrine of purgatory, eternal burning Hell or heaven once we die is a false teaching that has led many away from the scriptures to the teachings of men that is not biblical.

God bless...

Luke 16:19–31 (AV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This is the temporary abode of the dead (disembodied spirits). This will also be thrown into the Lake of Fire (the second death) Revelation 20:13-14.

But may I remind the OP? There are three states to human existence:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (AV)
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And while two of the three may be extinguished / annihilated... ah, there's that pesky third part of us that just won't die.

Mark 9:44–48 (AV)
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Seems a bit of overkill if it doesn't mean where they will spend the rest of eternity in conscious suffering... does it not?

 

[Hekler]

They continue to live in physical body.

 

[Butch5]

Those Scriptures I listed stand as proof to what I said. They are not that difficult to understand, that is, for one who is familiar with simple English. Trying to rewrite Scripture by different interpretations of the meaning of the Greek words is what is fallacy, for it's just an attempt to stray from the actual CONTEXT of the Scriptures, while even falsely using... the idea that one is staying in context!

What you're 'trying'... to do, is insert an agenda from men, and NOT read those Scriptures in their simplicity, but instead turn them around backwards, in order to serve those men's agenda you follow.

I really have no need to explain those New Testament witnesses of our spirit-soul continuing after flesh death. They are self-explanatory. But I can explain them in simplicity, as they are written... as when they all are put together, IN CONTEXT, their meaning is very simple about the continuance of the soul-spirit after flesh death.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV

We know that "soul" idea there is about more than just simply 'air', because 1 Peter 3 & 4 showed about Jesus going to the "spirits in prison" and preaching The Gospel to those who had died in their sins, so that they could live in the 'spirit' unto God...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Live according to God "in the spirit"??? Yeah! Our spirit-soul continues life into that other dimension when our flesh dies. Lord Jesus even showed this here...

Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom."
43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise."
KJV

That was the malefactor crucified on the cross that believed on Jesus while hanging on His cross. It doesn't require a brain surgeon to decipher what Jesus declared there to him, that on that day that believer would be in Paradise with Jesus, meaning in the heavenly dimension after both had died on their cross.

Phil 1:23-24
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
KJV

That was Apostle Paul speaking to the brethren. His idea of his desire to depart to be with Christ he is comparing to staying in the flesh. Context??? EASY! We know at that time Jesus was at the right hand of The Father's Throne, even as it still is today. So Paul wanting to depart to be with Christ has NO OTHER CONTEXT than Paul being ready for flesh death so his soul-spirit would be with Christ in the heavenly!!

Did Paul show this kind of idea of the ability for our spirit to be in the heavenly after flesh death elsewhere? YEAH!!! 2 Corinthians 5 was a strong example he gave!

2 Cor 5:1-8
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV

Paul's latter declaration - to be absent from our flesh body means to be present with The Lord. That's the context!

End of debate. The Scripture is simple.

It seems you've given us your opinion of what these passage mean. However, none of them say that the soul continues on after death. What you've done here is the fallacy of Begging the Question. You believe that the soul lives on after death, you go to these passages that you believe are talking about the soul living on after death and say see this proves it. The problem is that you began with the premise that the soul lives on after death. It's circular reasoning. Since none on those passages actually teaches that the soul lives on after death, we are left with no proof. However, the Scriptures do tell us whether the soul lives on. If the soul didn't die there would be no salvation. Jesus' soul died.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:11-12 KJV)

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezek. 18:4 KJV)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezek. 18:20 KJV)

He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; (Ps. 78:50 KJV).

Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (Jas. 5:20-1:1 KJV)


These are just few passages that show clearly that a soul can die. God said explicitly through Ezekiel, the soul that sins shall die. That's about as clear as it gets. Isaiah said that Jesus poured out His soul to death. That's about as clear as it gets. Here we have crystal clear statements. There are no inferences or if this, then that. They are plain crystal clear statements. What this shows is that the passages you posted don't mean what you think they mean, thus you are misunderstanding them. Each of them can be understood differently if they are not a approached with the presupposition that the dead live on after death. I can go through each of them and explain them differently if you'd like.

 

[Butch5]

Hello JL it is a little hard to follow your posts here as you have not provided any links to my posts you are quoting from, so I do not know the context of what your posting here. Can you go back through your posts and kindly add the links to what you are quoting from so I can examine the context and respond accordingly? All I can see in your posts here is an opinion of what you think certain scripture means without addressing any scripture that is in contradiction to what you saying those scriptures means. So if you can provide some links to my posts you are quoting from to show context I will be able to respond better.

Many thanks

It's really just the same thing we've been dealing with all along. People start with the Greek/Gnostic idea that the dead live on and then read the passages as such. However, in all of this nothing has been posted stating that the soul lives on. It's all by way inference. One the other hand there are clear passages of Scripture that tell us the soul dies. It's because, rather than having a Biblical view of what a man is, they have a Greek/Gnostic view of man and are trying to make the Scriptures fit this idea. That it doesn't is shown by the fact that everything is an inference. There is one caveat, there are a few translation issues that cause people to believe this idea also. However, if one holds a Biblical view of man these issues are more readily apparent

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It's really just the same thing we've been dealing with all along. People start with the Greek/Gnostic idea that the dead live on and then read the passages as such. However, in all of this nothing has been posted stating that the soul lives on. It's all by way inference. One the other hand there are clear passages of Scripture that tell us the soul dies. It's because, rather than having a Biblical view of what a man is, they have a Greek/Gnostic view of man and are trying to make the Scriptures fit this idea. That it doesn't is shown by the fact that everything is an inference. There is one caveat, there are a few translation issues that cause people to believe this idea also. However, if one holds a Biblical view of man these issues are more readily apparent

Good point Butch, I think a lot of people do not realize that this idea of heaven and hell when one dies has it's origins in paganism and not the bible

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Luke 16:19–31 (AV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This is the temporary abode of the dead (disembodied spirits). This will also be thrown into the Lake of Fire (the second death) Revelation 20:13-14.

But may I remind the OP? There are three states to human existence:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (AV)
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And while two of the three may be extinguished / annihilated... ah, there's that pesky third part of us that just won't die.

Mark 9:44–48 (AV)
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Seems a bit of overkill if it doesn't mean where they will spend the rest of eternity in conscious suffering... does it not?

Hi, John much of this has already been dealt with earlier on in the thread. I do not see the parable of Lazarus as being literal. Just like the parable of wheat and the tares as well as the lost sheep or the 10 virgins or the sower of the seed etc etc... It is the message behind these parables that is important. Both the spirit and the body that makes up a living soul has already been defined in both the Greek and the Hebrew showing from the scriptures that it is the body that returns to dust and the Spirit (breath of life) to God who gave it when we die. According to the scriptures most of us sleep or die in the grave until the second coming and the resurrection. Nothing overkill about any of this as it is all scripture.

God bless.

 

[Butch5]

Good point Butch, I think a lot of people do not realize that this idea of heaven and hell when one dies has it's origins in paganism and not the bible

I agree. I don't think many go that deeply into the Scriptures. I think a lot of people rely heavily on commentaries and lexicons, so they're really getting others opinions of what the Bible teaches. When we look at a doctrine and go through the entire Bible comparing verse with verse to see how things work out it becomes much more clear what is and isn't Biblical doctrine. However, that takes a great amount of time.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Assumption of Moses is non-canonical - it asserts that the devil disputed about the BODY of Moses

If St. Jude the Apostle quoted it, it is canonical.

 

[The Liturgist]

You know @LoveGodsWord none of the voluminous quotes you supplied contain any element which specifically refutes the idea that the soul is separated from the body at death, which we also know was the belief of the early church. Also, I found your argument that the Rich Man and Lazarus was parabolic in nature to be unconvincing.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You know @LoveGodsWord none of the voluminous quotes you supplied contain any element which specifically refutes the idea that the soul is separated from the body at death, which we also know was the belief of the early church. Also, I found your argument that the Rich Man and Lazarus was parabolic in nature to be unconvincing.

Sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree and scripture has been provided as supporting evidence on page one of this OP showing why I believe your claims are not biblical or true. If you disagree your welcome to show why you disagree. I am happy to discuss them with you but suggest you read through the thread first to catch up on the discussions.

Take Care dear friend..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I agree. I don't think many go that deeply into the Scriptures. I think a lot of people rely heavily on commentaries and lexicons, so they're really getting others opinions of what the Bible teaches. When we look at a doctrine and go through the entire Bible comparing verse with verse to see how things work out it becomes much more clear what is and isn't Biblical doctrine. However, that takes a great amount of time.

Yes I am hearing you. The house of cards tends to fall over when people cherry pick a bunch of scripture as with a prayerful study of the scriptures most people will be able to simply go back and examine the scripture contexts to see if what is being stated is true or not true and also chain topical references to subject matter considering contexts to get a better understanding as God guides us with the promise of His Spirit.

God bless and thanks for sharing (happy 2022).

 

[The Liturgist]

Sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree and scripture has been provided as supporting evidence on page one of this OP showing why I believe your claims are not biblical or true. If you disagree your welcome to show why you disagree. I am happy to discuss them with you but suggest you read through the thread first to catch up on the discussions.

Take Care dear friend..

Again, none of the quotes you supplied refute my point. As for “sleep” it can also be interpreted as “rest.”

Ultimately what matters most is what the early Church thought the Bible meant, since they were the disciples of the Holy Apostles. But in this case, the scripture is conclusive in its own right without even requiring Patristic recourse.

 

[Butch5]

If St. Jude the Apostle quoted it, it is canonical.

Paul quoted the Greek poets.

 

[Butch5]

You know @LoveGodsWord none of the voluminous quotes you supplied contain any element which specifically refutes the idea that the soul is separated from the body at death, which we also know was the belief of the early church. Also, I found your argument that the Rich Man and Lazarus was parabolic in nature to be unconvincing.

If it's not a parable, what is it? If one claims it's literal what evidence is there?

 

[The Liturgist]

Paul quoted the Greek poets.

But not as scripture. 1 Enoch has always been recognized as scripture by the Ethiopian Jews and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and there is strong evidence in the form of the Dead Sea Scrolls that it was widely used as scripture in ancient Israel.