THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

[Daniel Marsh]

Is there a summary for this thread?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Is there a summary for this thread?

Probably the best summary would be most of page one.

 

[Hawkins]

The Jewish people didn't have a complete understanding of life after death, it was still developing when the true light of the world Jesus Christ revealed it in its fullness.

This is not true. The Jews actually held a firm concept about what Sheol and lake of fire are. Jesus never denied these Pharisaic concepts but rather employed them in His teaching.

What is a parable, a parable is the use of simple terms and simple concepts to reflect a less obvious point of view. Thus the use of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man says that the Jews had a very firm concept of burning hell that it is a simple term to them for Jesus to illustrate the less obvious POV that the poor is not more sinful than the rich as the Jews back then perceived.

Matthew 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

We don't kill a fish, eat it then call that it's in eternal punishment, do we? In the contrary, eternal hell, immortal soul are Pharisaic concepts firmly adapted by the Jews (especially Hebrew speakers) in majority for Jesus to make this emphasized statement.

On the other hand, it is not expected that such Pharisaic concepts are emphasized in the gospel to be preached to all mankind because such emphasis may possess a negative effect on how graceful God is through Jesus Christ. The focus of the gospel is thus about God's Grace through Jesus instead of hell.

To put it another way, Sheol/burning hell and etc. are firm concepts among the Jews but not to be emphasized when the gospel is preached through the gentiles.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This is not true. The Jews actually held a firm concept about what Sheol and lake of fire are. Jesus never denied these Pharisaic concepts but rather employed them in His teaching.

What is a parable, a parable is the use of simple terms and simple concepts to reflect a less obvious point of view. Thus the use of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man says that the Jews had a very firm concept of burning hell that it is a simple term to them for Jesus to illustrate the less obvious POV that the poor is not more sinful than the rich as the Jews back then perceived.

Matthew 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

We don't kill a fish, eat it then call that it's in eternal punishment, do we? In the contrary, eternal hell, immortal soul are Pharisaic concepts firmly adapted by the Jews (especially Hebrew speakers) in majority for Jesus to make this emphasized statement.

On the other hand, it is not expected that such Pharisaic concepts are emphasized in the gospel to be preached to all mankind because such emphasis may possess a negative effect on how graceful God is through Jesus Christ. The focus of the gospel is thus about God's Grace through Jesus instead of hell.

To put it another way, Sheol/burning hell and etc. are firm concepts among the Jews but not to be emphasized when the gospel is preached through the gentiles.

I agree with what you said about parables being used to explain a message or idea or teachings. However I disagree with your claims that a parable has literal meaning application unless your trying to argue that we are all literally, sheep, goats, wheat, tares, fig trees, virgins and salt etc, or that a drop of water on someones tongue living in fire will quench their thirst? A parable is to relay a message or teaching it is not a literal factual account of events.

Take Care.

 

[BobRyan]

"Soul sleep" is a modern idea that has never been a part of Christianity. You are right that the bible uses sleep as analogous to death, but that is not the case. The Revelation speaks directly to the state of souls who rest at the throne of God, who are aware of what is happening on the earth, and who plead with God. After he was crucified Jesus preached to the souls of the dead.

"Soul sleep" is an argument used by some protestant groups against the Roman teaching of purgatory. The argument goes "we don't believe in purgatory so souls must be sleeping".

No that is not how the argument goes... rather the argument goes "The Bible teaches soul sleep and we do not reject those texts".

As we saw here -

JOHN 11:11-13 11, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, OUR FRIEND LAZARUS SLEEPS; BUT I GO, THAT I MAY AWAKE HIM OUT OF SLEEP. 12, Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13, HOWBEIT JESUS SPAKE OF HIS DEATH: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14, Then said JESUS UNTO THEM PLAINLY, LAZARUS IS DEAD.

And here

1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17
13, BUT I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU TO BE IGNORANT, BRETHREN, CONCERNING THOSE WHICH ARE ASLEEP, THAT YE SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS WHICH HAVE NO HOPE. 14, FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN, EVEN SO THOSE ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 15, for this we say unto you by the word of the lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the lord SHALL NOT PREVENT THOSE WHICH ARE ASLEEP. 16, FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:17, THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

 

[Davy]

I see it impossible for anyone to try and argue for the idea of 'soul sleep', when we have the following Scriptures that go totally against the idea:

1 Peter 3:18-20 about Jesus preaching to the "spirits in prison".

1 Peter 4:5-6 which declares The Gospel was preached to the dead so they could be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Matthew 10:28 where Jesus declared to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our 'soul'.

The Luke 16 story Jesus gave about the "rich man" and the poor beggar Lazarus, who both died with each one carried to a different side in Paradise.

Luke 23:43 where Jesus said the malefactor crucified with Him would be with Him that day, in Paradise.

Matthew 17:1-4 about the mount of transfiguration, when Elijah and Moses appeared talking with Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5 where Apostle Paul taught the idea that to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord, and visa versa.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Soul sleep is the first death. It’s temporary until Jesus comes again. We should not be worried about the first death, but the second death.

1 Thessalonians 4:14:For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

On this earth when one dies, they go back to where they came from back to dust and the spirit returns to God, whether they are saved or lost.

How we were formed:
“The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7).

What happens when we will die:
“Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

“The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26).


The first death is “sleep” and we shouldn’t be afraid of the first death, but the second death is what really matters. The scriptures and Jesus clarifies this….

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”

Jesus in His own words refers to the first death as sleep.

John 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

Jesus is making it abundantly clear the first death is synonymous with “sleep”.

20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Those saved will not see the second death

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Those not saved, the second death is permanent. Let’s all pray we are part of the first resurrection!

Revelation 20:14

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[Bob corrigan]

THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD - WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?

Hi all hope for a friendly discussion please based on the scriptures.

I see that there seems to be some confusion on what the scriptures actually teach on what happens when we die. So what is the state of the dead? Do we remain dead until the second coming where there the the scriptures teach those who have died in Christ will be resurrected? Or do we go to heaven when we die? These of course are contradictions in themselves.

According to the scriptures death is referred to by Jesus as a sleep which is a metaphor for death that we awake from at the second coming's resurrection. So what does the bible teach on the state of the dead? I will post some of the scriptures on what I believe happens when we die and we can investigate all of the other scriptures on what others might think it means (hoping for friendly discussion please)

WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD OR WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE?

JOHN 11:11-13 11, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, OUR FRIEND LAZARUS SLEEPS; BUT I GO, THAT I MAY AWAKE HIM OUT OF SLEEP. 12, Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13, HOWBEIT JESUS SPAKE OF HIS DEATH: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14, Then said JESUS UNTO THEM PLAINLY, LAZARUS IS DEAD.

Jesus says that death is like a sleep and a metaphor for death we wake up out from when he resurrects us. This is a key scripture here so I separated this scripture from all the scriptures provided below from the old and new testaments that describe what happens when we die...

(Note: I might ask some questions here but I am not going to provide the answers on purpose here because it is best if you can prayerfully ask God and see the answers in the scriptures provided for yourself)...

Here is a list of a lot of scriptures you may want to investigate on the topic of the state of the dead or soul sleep or what happens when we die according to the scriptures if your interested and have some time if this topic is new to you...

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ON WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE?
(you find the answers prayerfully from the scriptures below)

Death is referred to as a sleep which is a metaphor for death in scripture...

A.: [To be dead or in death is referred to as a sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead/asleep] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

The dead do not know anything in sleep until Jesus returns...

B.: [The dead knowing nothing] Genesis 27:4, 45:28; Ruth 1:17; Job 3:17-19, 7:8-10, 14:21, 21:32; 2 Kings 22:20; 2 Chronicles 34:28; Psalms 6:5, 28:1, 31:17, 88:4,10,11, 115:17, 143:7, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6,10; Isaiah 14:11, 38:18; [reserved] 2 Peter 2:9; [He goes to prepare a place, so that when He comes again, 2nd Advent, He will raise us and receive us] John 14:2-3

When we die we go to the grave...

C.: [The dead are in the grave/s], sepulchre/s, tomb/s, pit/s, hell [ie Hb: sheol; Gr: hades; grave]]Genesis 23:6, 35:20, 37:35, 44:29,31, 50:5; Exodus 14:11; Numbers 16:30, 19:16,18; Deuteronomy 34:6; Judges 8:32, 1 Samuel 2:6, 10:2; 2 Samuel 3:32, 4:10, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14, 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9, 13:22,30,31, 14:13; 2 Kings 9:28, 13:21, 21:26, 22:20, 23:6,16,17,30; 2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24; Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16; Job 3:17-19,22, 5:26, 7:8-10, 10:19, 11:8, 14:12-14,21, 17:1,13,16, 21:13,23-32, 24:19, 26:6, 30:24, 33:22; Psalms 5:9, 6:5, 18:5, 28:1, 30:3, 31:17, 35:7, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3,4,5-12, 89:48, 94:13, 115:17, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7, 143:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16; Ecclesiastes 6:6, 9:10; Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15,19, 22:16, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 53:9, 57:9, 65:4; Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 26:23, 20:17; Ezekiel 26:20, 31:15-17, 32:18,21-27, 37:12,13, 39:11; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2 [<- figurative, typological]; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Matthew 8:8, 11:23, 23:27,29, 27:52,53,60,61,64,66, 28:8; Mark 5:2,3,5, 6:29, 15:46, 16:2,3,5,8; Luke 8:27, 10:15, 11:47,48, 23:53,55, 24:1,2,9,12,22,24; John 5:28, 11:31,38, 12:17, 19:41,42, 20:1-4,6,8,11; Acts 2:29,34, 7:16, 13:29,36; Romans 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18, 11:9, 20:13,14

Righteous and dead in Christ are raised to life at the second coming...

D.: [Those in Christ resurrected from the grave/death/sleep at the second coming]1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 1 Corinthians 15:50-55; Philippians 3:10-11; Danial 12:2

Wicked resurrected to the 2nd death...

E.: [2nd death from which there is no life, nor resurrection, nor return - annihilation] Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8

The wicked in the second death are destroyed and forever...

F.: [sin/sinners gone forever, cut off, perished, no more, destroyed, passed away, etc] Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 25:8, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 7:17, 20:9, 21:4
John 3:16 says Perish or Everlasting Life [the wicked receive no such gift as everlasting life [there are no immortalized wicked anywhere and never will be], it is only a gift to the saved/just/righteous].

Additionally, it is the righteous who will dwell with everlasting burnings (Isaiah 33:14), for God is a consuming fire [to sin and of Love] (Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29) and His ministers a flame of fire (Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7) and His Throne of Fire (Daniel 7:9; Revelation 4:5) and His speech fire (2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8) for He is a purifying fire (Malachi 3:3) and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire (Revelation 15:2), and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed (Exodus 3:3), not the wicked [they are burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished.

..................

Why you might be asking is the above topic important to understand? Well it is very important as it leads into a correct understanding of the resurrection and God's judgement and what happens at the second coming as well as prepares us to be ready to avoid the great deceptions from Satan that will happen just prior to when Jesus returns so we can be prepared to meet Jesus and remain faithful to the end. The doctrine of purgatory, eternal burning Hell or heaven once we die is a false teaching that has led many away from the scriptures to the teachings of men that is not biblical.

God bless...

 

[Bob corrigan]

Excellent study! You know the truth of it, but I do not understand how you came to the conclusion that the sheep will dwell in everlasting fire. I'm not saying you are wrong, but it is something I would have to study for myself.
I just want to add a few thoughts about some of the incorrect teachings about death and the afterlife. ! use caps to emphasize, not yell, lol This post is not directed towards you, but for those who read it.

1 It is taught that death is mere "separation" from God.
All of the Hebrew words translated into the English word "death:
muwth: to die, to kill.
Muwth: to die for the son.
mowth: death.
maveth: death, dead.
tsalmaveth: shade of death.
ratsach: to murder.
t'muwthah: execution, death.

Greek words:
anairesis: act of killing.
anaireo: to take away, abolish, murder.
apago: to take away.
apothnesko: to die off.
epithanaatios: doomed to death.
eschatos: finally, at the extremity.
thanatos: death.
thanatoo: to kill.
teleute: deceased, death.

As it is clear to see, none of these words mean "separation."

2 It is taught that man has an immortal soul.

1Tim 1:17, Now unto the King eternal, IMMORTAL...
1Tim 6:15-16...WHO ONLY HAS IMMORTALITY...
Scripture teaches that until Jesus returns and gives his sheep eternal life, only God is immortal. No person is born with an "immortal" soul.

3 Luke 16:19-31 is not a true story! It is a parable! Just because Jesus used a name here does not make this a true story! Other teachers used parables in those days. And other teachers used names in their parables. It was a common practice. There is no concept of "Abraham's Bosom" taught in all of Scripture. This concept was introduced by the Pharisees! Scripture does not teach that there is an "intermediate" state between death and final judgment. This teaching is from paganism. "Hell" is not a biblical word! It was forced into the translations. Scripture doesn't teach that when a believer dies, angels escort the believer to heaven. Jesus told this parable as a condemnation against the Pharisees and scribes. The key to understanding this parable is the last four verses. Jesus was not teaching about the afterlife.

4 There is no verse that reads "absent from the body, present with the Lord." This is not taught in Scripture! Scripture teaches that when a person dies, their body goes into the grave. They are "asleep." They have no knowledge of anything. This teaching comes from perverting 2Cor 5:8, "We are confident, I say, and willing to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." This verse has nothing to do with what happens to believers right after they die. The Greek word for "present" is "endemeo", which means, to be among one's own people, dwell in one's country, be at home, not "in close physical location to another!"

5 1Cor 2:9 is not teaching about heaven!

 

[FredVB]

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Jude 1:9 is a quote from a pseudapigraphal book called "The Assumption of Moses" about Moses being risen and bodily assumed into heaven.

Matt 17 we see him in bodily form standing with Elijah and with Christ.

bump

 

[JohnD70X7]

BobRyan said:
Jude 1:9 is a quote from a pseudapigraphal book called "The Assumption of Moses" about Moses being risen and bodily assumed into heaven.

Matt 17 we see him in bodily form standing with Elijah and with Christ.
______________________________________________________________________________

Actually the Mount of transfiguration was an event in spiritual form.

• individual disticntion
• recognizability
• pan cognition (everyone knew who everyone was)
• human likeness

The same as the dead described in Luke 16:19-31 (the Rich man and Lazarus) with the additions of:

• sense of pain or pleasure
• sense of thirst or quenched thirst
• sight
• thought
• speech
• hearing

Apparently there's not all that much difference in our bodies and our spirits.

To date, only the LORD Jesus is bodily resurrected.

 

[Butch5]

The idea of soul sleep is not a Biblical idea. Sleep is used in the Bible as a metaphor for death. Those who are said to be asleep, unless literally sleeping, are dead. This idea of soul sleep in based in the pagan concept of Dualism, the idea that man can live apart from the body. This idea is taught nowhere in Scripture

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
Jude 1:9 is a quote from a pseudapigraphal book called "The Assumption of Moses" about Moses being risen and bodily assumed into heaven.

Matt 17 we see him in bodily form standing with Elijah and with Christ.
______________________________________________________________________________

Actually the Mount of transfiguration was an event in spiritual form.

In Matt 17 four physical humans go up the physical mountain and physically begin to pray to God - then in real life 2 beings from heaven - real historic beings as recorded in the OT - appear talking in-person with Christ and seen doing that very thing by the same three physical beings (3 disciples). Then all 4 of them physically walk down the mountain and physically have a discussion about it on the way down.

 

[BobRyan]

The idea of soul sleep is not a Biblical idea.

Sleep is used in the Bible as a metaphor for death.

Matt 10:28 - they can kill the body, but not the soul" the dead body "returned to dust" is not "asleep" in that case. But the living body does sleep every night that is for sure.

When confronted with dead people Jesus would say on several occasions that they were not dead - but were asleep.

Matt 9:24 He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.

John 11:
11 This He said, and after this He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep.

. 21 Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” 23 Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise from the dead.” 24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

1 Thess 4:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

Matt 22: "Regarding the resurrection of the dead" -
31 "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. 34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.

Jesus does not say "regarding the fact that the dead need no resurrection because God is the God of the dead for they are all alive and have no need of resurrection" --- What Jesus says is "regarding the resurrection of the dead, ". Jesus makes the case that it is ONLY the fact of the future resurrection of the dead - that enables the statement God makes to Moses at the burning bush - possible. Jesus does not allow for any other mechanism to solve the problem in that Matt 22 example.

 

[JohnD70X7]

In Matt 17 four physical humans go up the physical mountain and physically begin to pray to God - then in real life 2 beings from heaven - real historic beings as recorded in the OT - appear talking in-person with Christ and seen doing that very thing by the same three physical beings (3 disciples). Then all 4 of them physically walk down the mountain and physically have a discussion about it on the way down.

John 3:13 (KJV)
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

This would mean no human being but Jesus has gone to heaven ever.
Or...
It is referring to the resurrected state of Jesus Christ who (to date) is the only human being ever to be resurrected.
Ergo, those human beings who have ascended to heaven (Ephesians 4:8-10 / 2 Corinthians 5:8) have done so as disembodied spirits.

Elijah and Moses, long dead even in Jesus' time, appeared on the mount of transfiguration as disembodied spirits that the disciples were enabled to see.

 

[BobRyan]

Elijah and Moses, long dead even in Jesus' time, appeared on the mount of transfiguration as disembodied spirits that the disciples were enabled to see.

2 Kings 2 says Elijah was taken directly to heaven without ever dying. But Elijah did not cause himself to ascend into Heaven - it was only God that did that for Elijah

Jude 1 quotes the book 'The Assumption of Moses" as being a real account of the literal assumption of Moses into heaven prior to that Matt 17 event. But Moses did not resurrect himself and then transport/ascend) himself into Heaven, only Christ could do that.

God did for them -- what they could not do for themselves.

When Jesus was arguing with Sadducees in Matt 22 Jesus argues for the "irrefutable proof" of future resurrection in His statement about Abraham , Isaac and Jacob at the time God spoke to Moses at the burning bush in the OT,

 

[Butch5]

Matt 10:28 - they can kill the body, but not the soul" the dead body "returned to dust" is not "asleep" in that case. But the living body does sleep every night that is for sure.

When confronted with dead people Jesus would say on several occasions that they were not dead - but were asleep.

Matt 9:24 He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.

John 11:
11 This He said, and after this He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep.

. 21 Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” 23 Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise from the dead.” 24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

1 Thess 4:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

Matt 22: "Regarding the resurrection of the dead" -
31 "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. 34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.

Jesus does not say "regarding the fact that the dead need no resurrection because God is the God of the dead for they are all alive and have no need of resurrection" --- What Jesus says is "regarding the resurrection of the dead, ". Jesus makes the case that it is ONLY the fact of the future resurrection of the dead - that enables the statement God makes to Moses at the burning bush - possible. Jesus does not allow for any other mechanism to solve the problem in that Matt 22 example.

Jesus uses death as a metaphor for sleep. Why, because that's how Christians should view their life. Death for the Christian is like sleep. When we go to sleep we are not conscious. We sleep for a while and then we wake up. For the Christian, death is the same. We die, we are not conscious, and then at the resurrection we wake up. That's why sleep is used as a metaphor for death. When a person dies, the body decays, the soul ceases to exist. This state continues util the resurrection when God will reform the body and once again breath His breath into it and the man will live again. It's just like Genesis.

Here Jesus explains the metaphor.

Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 11:11–15.

Jesus had the power to give life. So, in Mathew 9 He can say the dead girl is asleep because He intended to raise her from the dead. If one has the ability to raise the dead, then they cam say someone is sleeping. The people obviously knew she was dead. They laughed when Jesus said she was sleeping. What they didn't understand was that He had the source of life and was able to raise her.


The whole concept of Soul Sleep is based on a false premise. It's based on the idea that the soul can live on after death. However, that idea is completely incompatible with Scripture. Genesis 2:7 tells us of the creation of man and the creation of soul.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 2:6–7.

Moses wrote that God formed man from the dust of the earth. Thus man is a physical creation from the elements of the earth. Then Moses records that God breathed something out of Himself and into the man. This was the breath or spirit of life. Then Moses records that when God did that, the man "BECAME" a living soul. We can see from this that a living soul, in this case, consists of both man and the breath or spirit of life from God. So, the soul is made of two components, man and the breath or spirit of life from God. We're told in Ecclesiastes that when man dies the breath or spirit of life returns to God and the body returns to the dust. Since the two components have separated the soul no longer exists. Since the soul no longer exists, it cannot be sleeping or in any other state than nonexistence. And, if we look at how soul is used in Scripture that becomes clear. in Scripture the Greek and Hebrew words that translated soul are used two ways. They are used in concrete and abstract ways. Concretely soul is a living being. Abstractly soul is used of life itself. So, if the body and the breath of life separate, then obviously the life or soul ceases. The person is no longer alive thus they no longer have soul.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus uses death as a metaphor for sleep. Why, because that's how Christians should view their life. Death for the Christian is like sleep.

agreed. The person that is alseep "still exists" but is in a dormant state.

When we go to sleep we are not conscious. We sleep for a while and then we wake up. For the Christian, death is the same. We die, we are not conscious, and then at the resurrection we wake up. That's why sleep is used as a metaphor for death. When a person dies, the body decays,

that is true

the soul ceases to exist.

That part is not possible according to Matt 10:28 -- because in this life they can "kill the body but not the soul".

What is more - something that does not exist - cannot sleep or be dormant.
The body that dies and is then dust cannot exist any longer either - it is killed, and destroyed to the point of dust and ashes.

Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

agreed.

Jesus had the power to give life. So, in Mathew 9 He can say the dead girl is asleep because He intended to raise her from the dead. If one has the ability to raise the dead, then they cam say someone is sleeping.

Not the case with something that does not exist. I can make a shovel today - burn it to ashes then make another shovel tomorrow. But that does not mean that the first shovel "was a sleep" while it was burned to ashes. IN addition I cannot claim that the second shovel is really the first shovel.

IN fact in 1 Cor 15 we are told that the resurrected body is most certainly not the body that was sown - the first body that was reduced to ashes.

 

[JohnD70X7]

2 Kings 2 says Elijah was taken directly to heaven without ever dying. But Elijah did not cause himself to ascend into Heaven - it was only God that did that for Elijah

Which you cannot prove was not his removal from his body (disembodied).

And it says he went up into the sky (heaven). The apostle Paul said it is the third heaven where God's throne is. (2 Corinthians 12).

Elijah was caught up in the sky by a whirlwind.