THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

[Butch5]

agreed. The person that is alseep "still exists" but is in a dormant state.

They don't exist. That's the whole point made in Genesis.

That part is not possible according to Matt 10:28 -- because in this life they can "kill the body but not the soul".

Actually, that's not what Jesus said. Let's look at it more closely.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 10:27–28.

Man can kill the body, but he cannot kill the life. The reason for that is that God has control over all life. Everyone will be resurrected; thus, everyone will live again. So, if man kills, God will restore that life. So, man has killed the body, but he cannot kill the life. However, God is able to destroy both. Notice, He didn't say God is able to kill both, He said God is able to destroy both. He didn't say that the soul or life cannot be killed. He just said that man can't do it. So, a soul can cease to exist.

What is more - something that does not exist - cannot sleep or be dormant.
The body that dies and is then dust cannot exist any longer either - it is killed, and destroyed to the point of dust and ashes.

The body is killed, however, God holds the life or soul in His hand. The soul is not some immaterial thing. It's a living being or abstractly life itself.

agreed.

Not the case with something that does not exist. I can make a shovel today - burn it to ashes then make another shovel tomorrow. But that does not mean that the first shovel "was a sleep" while it was burned to ashes. IN addition I cannot claim that the second shovel is really the first shovel.

But you're not God. We have an example of it from God Himself. Read Ezekiel 37. It's the story of the valley of dry bones. There's a valley full of dry bones. God tells Ezekiel to prophesy to the bones and they come together, then skin and tissue form but there is not breath or life in them. It's just like we saw in Gen 2:7. Then God tells Ezekiel to prophesy to the wind. He does and breath comes into them and they live. Then God tells Ezekiel what the vision means. He says that the bones are Israel and that God is going to bring them out of their graves, breathe His breath into them and they will live and go into the land. So we have a picture of God taking these dead people and bringing their bodies back together and putting life back into them.

IN fact in 1 Cor 15 we are told that the resurrected body is most certainly not the body that was sown - the first body that was reduced to ashes.

Actually, it is the same body. If we look closely at what Paul said we can see that.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:42–44.

It's the same "it" in each case. "It" is sown in corruption. The same "it" is raised in incorruption. "It' is sown in dishonor. The same "It" is raised in glory. It's the same "it" in each case.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

agreed. The person that is asleep "still exists" but is in a dormant state.

They don't exist.

IS it your claim that when people sleep - they don't exist??
IS it your claim that people that do not exist -- sleep??
How many non-existent beings are "asleep" in your POV?

Do you have many categories of "non-existent beings" -- not-existing at this time?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

That part is not possible according to Matt 10:28 -- because in this life they can "kill the body but not the soul".

Actually, that's not what Jesus said. Let's look at it more closely.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 10:27–28.

Man can kill the body, but he cannot kill the life.

The translation you just quoted does not say "Kill the body, but cannot kill the life".

IS it your claim that when the body dies the person is still "alive"??

You are changing the verse to something like "they can kill you but cannot keep on killing you forever" or "They can kill you but cannot stop God from making you alive at some point in the future" -- which may be your view - but is not in the text.

Everyone will be resurrected; thus, everyone will live again.

True but "live again" implies you have "Stopped living" now.

The body is killed, however, God holds the life or soul in His hand.

exactly! It is the only thing that still exists after the point of death (when the body is killed) so that you can say that the person is "dormant" rather than non-existent.

In John 11 Jesus does not say "Lazarus does not exist any more - I go that he may exist".

The soul is not some immaterial thing. It's a living being or abstractly life itself.

"The spirit goes back to God who gave it". Eccl 12:7

Acts 7:59 "Jesus receive my spirit"
Luke 23:46 into thy hands I commend my spirit:

. Then God tells Ezekiel what the vision means. He says that the bones are Israel and that God is going to bring them out of their graves, breathe His breath into them and they will live and go into the land.

True - but the breath is undefined in that case. IT does not mean that every time you hold your breath you are dead or that when the breath is knocked out of you - you die and then are resurrected. The term "breath" or "breath of life" is undefined -- it is whatever is needed to make a physical body alive... whatever that is.

But in Acts 7 in the case of Stephen and in Luke in the case of Christ - they are not praying "God please allow my physical cells to die so that my body can be dead". That is not at all the sense of the request they are making according to the text.

And the spirit returns to God who gave it in Eccl 12 is not a claim that puffs of breath travel from earth to heaven at death. IT is something far more substantive, preserving the identity of the same person, that is being preserved, held-in-store by God

 

[Butch5]

BobRyan said:

agreed. The person that is asleep "still exists" but is in a dormant state.


IS it your claim that when people sleep - they don't exist??
IS it your claim that people that do not exist -- sleep??
How many non-existent beings are "asleep" in your POV?

Do you have many categories of "non-existent beings" -- not-existing at this time?

It's my claim that sleep, unless some is literally sleeping for the night and will wake up in the morning, is a reference to death. They are dead. When Jesus said Lazarus was asleep, Lazarus was dead. Jesus even said, he was dead. It's a metaphor. Paul used death as a metaphor also. In Romans he said, "I die daily". Was he saying that he died every day and thus was resurrected every day? Or was he using death as a metaphor to say that he laid aside his wants and desires to do the work of the Lord. I think we would all agree that it is the latter. He didn't literally die every day. Likewise, sleep is used as a metaphor for death because of the resurrection. If there was no resurrection, then sleep wouldn't be a metaphor for death because when one sleeps, they wake up. If there was no resurrection, then people wouldn't wake up from death.

So, when people are dead, they no longer exist. The body decays, the breath or spirit of life returns to God. The two elements that form the soul have separated, thus the sole no longer exists. Sleep is simply a metaphor for death or the absence of life.

I'm not sure what you mean by nonexistent beings. That seems like a logical contradiction. How can there be beings if they don't exist?

 

[BobRyan]

It's my claim that sleep, unless some is literally sleeping for the night and will wake up in the morning, is a reference to death. They are dead. When Jesus said Lazarus was asleep, Lazarus was dead. Jesus even said, he was dead.

His body was dead as even Matt 10:28 notes
But "our FRIEND Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may awaken HIM" is a reference to the person not just the body. The person was dormant.

If there was no resurrection, then sleep wouldn't be a metaphor for death because when one sleeps, they wake up.

IF the person does not exist -- there is nothing to "wake up".

So, when people are dead, they no longer exist.

No Bible text says that.

"I AM the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" Matt 22. Not "Abraham, Isaac and Jacob no longer exist".

The body decays, the breath or spirit of life returns to God.

It's that "undefined term" breath - where your argument is sometimes missing the key detail.
The spirit/soul needs to "return to God" to be preserved so that something can "revive" rather than having something "duplicated". Those are entirely different concepts.

I'm not sure what you mean by nonexistent beings. That seems like a logical contradiction. How can there be beings if they don't exist?

Your the one that says they no longer exist - but that they then "wake up". You also say that in their non-existent state they "sleep".

You can't wake something up that does not exist.
Something that does not exist "does not also sleep".

You can't have it both ways.

The easter bunny "does not exist". And because of that we cannot also say "the Easter bunny sleeps".

And if one day in the future God will create a New Earth we cannot say "The New Earth now sleeps".

 

[Butch5]

BobRyan said:

That part is not possible according to Matt 10:28 -- because in this life they can "kill the body but not the soul".


The translation you just quoted does not say "Kill the body, but cannot kill the life".

Actually, it does. The Greek and Hebrew words Nephesh and Pseuche are often translated life. I'll give you a few examples.

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Le 17:11.

In this passage, both words life and soul are the same Hebrew word Nephesh. The Greek equivalent is Pseuche which is the word Jesus used Mathew 10:28. He said, "but are not able to kill the pseuche. Notice too, that Moses states that the life or soul is in the blood. What happens when all of the blood run out of an animal? It dies. It's life ends. Again, we have pseuche associated with life.

IS it your claim that when the body dies the person is still "alive"??

No, they are dead.

You are changing the verse to something like "they can kill you but cannot keep on killing you forever" or "They can kill you but cannot stop God from making you alive at some point in the future" -- which may be your view - but is not in the text.

That is Jesus' whole point. Man can kill man. But God is ultimately the one who decides when our life ends. It doesn't matter if man kill us. God is going to raise us from the dead. However, if God destroys us, that's it. there is nothing else.

True but "live again" implies you have "Stopped living" now.

No, it implies that one will at some point die.

exactly! It is the only thing that still exists after the point of death (when the body is killed) so that you can say that the person is "dormant" rather than non-existent.

In John 11 Jesus does not say "Lazarus does not exist any more - I go that he may exist".

It's a figure of speech. God isn't literally sitting in Heaven with a handful of lives. It means that God has the power. The right hand is a symbol of power. Saying that one's life is in God's hand means that God has the power over their life. Again Genesis 2:7 is crystal clear. The body and the breath of God form a soul. When the two separate the soul or life no longer exists.

"The spirit goes back to God who gave it". Eccl 12:7

Acts 7:59 "Jesus receive my spirit"
Luke 23:46 into thy hands I commend my spirit:

Right and the Greek and Hebrew words that are translated spirit, literally mean wind or breath. So, Ecclesiastes, the breath of life goes back to God who gave it.

Acts 7 "Jesus receive my breath (of life)

Luke 23 Into thy hands I commit my breath (of life)

True - but the breath is undefined in that case. IT does not mean that every time you hold your breath you are dead or that when the breath is knocked out of you - you die and then are resurrected. The term "breath" or "breath of life" is undefined -- it is whatever is needed to make a physical body alive... whatever that is.

But in Acts 7 in the case of Stephen and in Luke in the case of Christ - they are not praying "God please allow my physical cells to die so that my body can be dead". That is not at all the sense of the request they are making according to the text.

And the spirit returns to God who gave it in Eccl 12 is not a claim that puffs of breath travel from earth to heaven at death. IT is something far more substantive, preserving the identity of the same person, that is being preserved, held-in-store by God

Agreed, it is not just puffs of air. It is the very power of God. It is what animates man. It is the breath of life. It is something of God, not man. It's not something preserving the identity of the person. In Ezekiel 37 God said, I will put "MY" breath in you and you will life. He didn't say I will put your breath back in you. It is God's not man's we see this same thing from Job.

8 But it is a spirit in people,
the breath of the Almighty,
that makes them understand.


Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible, Second Edition. (Denmark: Thomas Nelson, 2019), Job 32:8.

In this passage the word spirit is translated from the Hebrew ruach and breath is the Hebrew word neshamah. Both of these Hebrew words mean wind or breath.

But there is a breath in people, the breath of the Almighty that makes them understand.

It's God's breath or spirit. As an analogy, God's breath or the breath of life is to man as electricity is to a computer. A computer can do amazing things. but, without electricity it can do nothing. Likewise, man can do amazing things, however, without God's breath or spirit man can do nothing.

The Spirit of God hath made me,
And the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Job 33:4.

Here again we have the same thing. Spirit is the word ruach and breath is the word neshamah. Both mean wind or breath. he says the breath of God made me and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. These two passages are what is known as a parallelism. It's a form of Hebrew poetry where one sentence makes a statement and the next repeats the idea with different words. In the first verse he says "the breath of God has made me" and in the second he says, "the breath of the Almighty hath given me life".

 

[Butch5]

His body was dead as even Matt 10:28 notes
But "our FRIEND Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may awaken HIM" is a reference to the person not just the body. The person was dormant.

Yes, it's a reference to the person. Because Lazarus was a person.

IF the person does not exist -- there is nothing to "wake up".

Wake up is a metaphor just like sleep is. if some is dead one can't simply go over and shake them to wake them up. It's a metaphor

No Bible text says that.

"I AM the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" Matt 22. Not "Abraham, Isaac and Jacob no longer exist".

Not text states that. However, that is the "ONLY" logical conclusion from Genesis 2:7. You're misundestanding that text about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

It's that "undefined term" breath - where your argument is sometimes missing the key detail.
The spirit/soul needs to "return to God" to be preserved so that something can "revive" rather than having something "duplicated". Those are entirely different concepts.

Let's not conflate, soul and spirit, they are two completely different things. Go's breath or spirit returns to Him because it is something of Him. It is not man. As we've seen from Gen. 2:7, the only logical conclusion is that the soul ceases to exist.

You keep saying something personally identifiable has to return to God. Please, show something in Scripture that suggests any such thing.

Your the one that says they no longer exist - but that they then "wake up". You also say that in their non-existent state they "sleep".

You can't wake something up that does not exist.
Something that does not exist "does not also sleep".

You can't have it both ways.

The easter bunny "does not exist". And because of that we cannot also say "the Easter bunny sleeps".

And if one day in the future God will create a New Earth we cannot say "The New Earth now sleeps".

Sleep and wake are metaphors. You can't take them literally. The whole point of a metaphor is that it is "NOT" literal. Sleep and awake can be used of death by God because He can awaken from the dead those who sleep, are dead. Again, the whole point of the metaphor is to encourage the Chrisitan that even though he will die, God will awaken, resurrect him.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, it's a reference to the person. Because Lazarus was a person.

" I go that I may wake HIM" ... "Our FRIEND Lazarus sleeps"

Are all statements about a person - who exists, being awakened.

Not about "a person who does not exist - being created in the future".

Let's not conflate, soul and spirit, they are two completely different things.

Depends on context.

In Matt 10:28 there are only two parts "body and soul" no spirit, no breath. Because the soul as the term in Matt 10 encompasses all of - spirit, breath, soul.

God's breath or spirit returns to Him because it is something of Him. It is not man. As we've seen from Gen. 2:7, the only logical conclusion is that the soul ceases to exist.

That is an extreme inference and you need it because there is not one text in all of scripture that says "at death - the soul ceases to exist".

The closes thing you have to addressing that topic is in Matt 10:28 which states the opposite.

You keep saying something personally identifiable has to return to God. Please, show something in Scripture that suggests any such thing.

How about the texts you keep ignoring in Acts 7 and in Luke?

Acts 7 "Jesus receive my breath (of life)

Luke 23 Into thy hands I commit my breath (of life)

The term 'Sleep' simply means that the person "our friend Lazarus" is in a dormant state. In the case of death it is dormant soul without a body.
In the case of every night - it is dormant body with a body that is still alive.

The Bible says "The body without the spirit/soul is dead" but does not say "the spirit/soul without the body ceases to exist... or is dead"

 

[zoidar]

@Butch5 and @BobRyan, hope you don't mind me breaking into the conversation, but why is your particular point of understanding so important to you?

 

[anetazo]

The majority are in Sheol, called hell. Its holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. Luke chapter 16, Jesus gave us analogy of Richman and Lazarus. The Richman went to hell. And Lazarus to paradise. Thiers two sides of the gulf. Neither side can cross over. Bottom line. Read Corinthians chapter 2, you need holy spirit to guide you to kingdom of God. Many people have spirit of slumber. God's Election have holy spirit. The election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world, ephesians chapter 1, first Peter chapter 1, romans chapter 11 to document. Psalm chapter 49;19. Many shall never see the light. Many people will have to wait until millennium is over to have access to Jesus. Without holy spirit, thier walking with blind folds on. I documented this. Sheol, hell and Hades are the same.

 

[The Liturgist]

The majority are in Sheol, called hell. Its holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. Luke chapter 16, Jesus gave us analogy of Richman and Lazarus. The Richman went to hell. And Lazarus to paradise. Thiers two sides of the gulf. Neither side can cross over. Bottom line. Read Corinthians chapter 2, you need holy spirit to guide you to kingdom of God. Many people have spirit of slumber. God's Election have holy spirit. The election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world, ephesians chapter 1, first Peter chapter 1, romans chapter 11 to document. Psalm chapter 49;19. Many shall never see the light. Many people will have to wait until millennium is over to have access to Jesus. Without holy spirit, thier walking with blind folds on. I documented this. Sheol, hell and Hades are the same.

To be fair, we do not know the ratio of those saved like Lazarus nor to those inextricably damned, such as the Rich Man.*

Also I would note that the intent of the clause “whose kingdom shall have no end” with respect to Jesus Christ in Nicene Creed was based on a decision of the same fourth century Church Fathers who compiled and promulgated the definitive 27 book NT canon and defended the ancient Trinitarian doctrines of the Incarnation and of the Holy Spirit against Arians and Apollinarians and Pneumatomacchians, to reject the doctrine of Chiliasm, which was finalized at the Council of Constantinople along with the revised Nicene Creed, just as the practice of Quartodecimianism was rejected at Nicaea, and in like manner Nestorianism and further modifications to the creed were prohibited at the Council of Ephesus.

*Or indeed to those to saveable (if one believes in the efficacy of prayers for the dead, which I and indeed most Christians, including many Protestants, do believe, on the basis of 2 Maccabees 12:38-46)

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 and @BobRyan, hope you don't mind me breaking into the conversation, but why is your particular point of understanding so important to you?

It's not that it's a point of understanding. It's what God's word teaches. It's important because some teach God's word incorrectly.

 

[Butch5]

That is an extreme inference and you need it because there is not one text in all of scripture that says "at death - the soul ceases to exist".

The closes thing you have to addressing that topic is in Matt 10:28 which states the opposite.

it's not extreme.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV 1900): 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The body was formed from the dust. God breathed into it the breath of life. Those two combined to form a living soul. Body+ breath=soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV 1900): 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The breath returns to God who gave it. If you take the breath away from the soul you no longer have a soul. All thats left is the body. Thus, the soul no longer exists.

How about the texts you keep ignoring in Acts 7 and in Luke?

Acts 7 "Jesus receive my breath (of life)

Luke 23 Into thy hands I commit my breath (of life)

What in these passages denotes something personal of them. They are both giving up the breath of life that is in them. As we just saw from Ecc. 12:7, the breath returns to God who gave it.

The term 'Sleep' simply means that the person "our friend Lazarus" is in a dormant state. In the case of death it is dormant soul without a body.
In the case of every night - it is dormant body with a body that is still alive.

Sorry, but that's not correct. Are you aware that the words nephesh and psuche are often times translated life? Let's see how your statement works with life.

In the case of death it is dormant life without a body.

Does that make sense? No, it doesn't. Death isn't a dormant life, it is the opposite of life. It is the lack of life. In death, life doesn't exist. Thus when a person is dead there is no soul.

The Bible says "The body without the spirit/soul is dead" but does not say "the spirit/soul without the body ceases to exist... or is dead"

No, the Bible says the body without the spirit is dead. It doesn't conflate soul with spirit. They are two completely different things. Of course the body without the breath (of life) is dead.

 

[The Liturgist]

It's not that it's a point of understanding. It's what God's word teaches. It's important because some teach God's word incorrectly.

On the contrary, it is your opinion of what Scripture teaches, but it is an extremely controversial opinion and one that is not congruent with the teachings of any of the Early Church Fathers, or of Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, John Wesley and the other magisterial Protestant reformers. And there is no evidence anyone believed in that interpretation prior to the 16th century.

 

[Butch5]

On the contrary, it is your opinion of what Scripture teaches, but it is an extremely controversial opinion and one that is not congruent with the teachings of any of the Early Church Fathers, or of Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, John Wesley and the other magisterial Protestant reformers. And there is no evidence anyone believed in that interpretation prior to the 16th century.

If it's not what the Scriptures teach then you should have no difficulty proving it wrong.

Regarding the beliefs of Christians in the past, what does that have to do with the validity of my argument? Christians have believed erroneous teachings all through history. We can go all the way back to the church at Corinth where were some were denyng the resurrection. Luther beleived one was saved by faith alone. A belief that is flatly refuted by Scripture. Calvin believed the Elect were chosen to be saved before creation. There's no such teaching in Scripture. How many millions have believed in Penal Aronement? It's a doctrine that doesn't appear in church history until the Reformation. Are we to assume that’s a Biblical teaching? I could go on and on about erroneous teachings. However, what others believed has no bearing on my argument. Regarding my position supposedly being controversial, when error becomes orthodox the truth is controversial.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

That is an extreme inference and you need it because there is not one text in all of scripture that says "at death - the soul ceases to exist".

The closes thing you have to addressing that topic is in Matt 10:28 which states the opposite.

it's not extreme.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV 1900): 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The body was formed from the dust. God breathed into it the breath of life. Those two combined to form a living soul. Body+ breath=soul.

Yes but we don't know the details .. so then when someone gets the breath knocked out of them we don't say "well then you must have been resurrected". Context determines the meaning for the term. Adam did not exist at all before he was created by God so then "became a living soul" has a lot of meaning available and is not reducible to "body plus breath" for soul. But rather for a "living soul" one that is active and not asleep nor is it non-existent.

Gen 35:18 It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

Acts 7: 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 7 does not say "he ceased to exist" - it says "he fell asleep". Sleep is not something that is done by something that does not exist.

Stephen's statement was a statement "of faith" not a declaration that he was about to cease to exist.

Christ makes the same sort of -- I commit My Spirit unto Thee
Luke 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

Jesus in John 11 says "our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM" not "our friend Lazarus no longer exists - I go that he may exist again". Jesus then informs Mary that the one that believes on Him "will NEVER die" -- because in fact He only regards Lazarus' current condition as "sleep".

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV 1900): 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The breath returns to God who gave it. If you take the breath away from the soul you no longer have a soul.

No text says "God takes the breath away from the soul".

All thats left is the body. Thus, the soul no longer exists.

Not one "soul no longer exists" can be found in the entire body for the state of a person who has died the first death.

What in these passages denotes something personal of them. They are both giving up the breath of life that is in them. As we just saw from Ecc. 12:7, the breath returns to God who gave it.

Sorry, but that's not correct. Are you aware that the words nephesh and psuche are often times translated life? Let's see how your statement works with life.

In the case of death it is dormant life without a body.

In Matt 10:28 they can kill the body - but they cannot kill the soul.

If you stick with your Gen 2 definition - that Matt 10:28 statement can never be true. Here again we have context determining meaning.

The souls departed, the souls of those who have died - is a reference to those the "Sleep in Jesus". Not "they ceased to exist"

1 Thess 4:13
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

No, the Bible says the body without the spirit is dead.

We both agree on that part when it comes to the body.

 

[BobRyan]

@Butch5 and @BobRyan, hope you don't mind me breaking into the conversation, but why is your particular point of understanding so important to you?

I will give a few good examples about why this topic matters.

In 1 Same 28 a witch and a demon conduct a seance for wicked king Saul who wanted to speak to the dead. He was duped by a witch and a demon into thinking he was actually communicated with one of God's prophets even though the text clearly says God would not allow any of His prophets to speak with the wicked king.

If everyone had the true Bible understanding of the situation for someone who is dead - then there would be no arguments posted on this very forum about how the witch, the demon and the wicked king were actually able to haul up on of the departed saints and talk to him.

That confusion simply would not exist.

What is more - there would be no confusion at all on this forum about Jesus' argument in Matt 22 where He give irrefutable proof of the future resurrection to the Sadducees. A confusion that can be seen by the fact that people insist that Jesus failed to prove the future resurrection and also to prove that someone is alive while dead - since He merely says that "God is not the god of the dead" but does not then prove that this means they were alive at the time God was speaking to Moses rather than "would be alive" at the future resurrection. (Neither of which the Sadducees believed but ONE of which they were forced into concluding because Christ's argument left them no way out of it).

However that is not the difference that Butch5 and I have.

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IN the case of the implication for the difference that @Butch5 and I have - my POV solves the following problems that the "cease to exist" view will have with the Bible.

Yes but we don't know the details .. so then when someone gets the breath knocked out of them we don't say "well then you must have been resurrected". Context determines the meaning for the term. Adam did not exist at all before he was created by God so then "became a living soul" has a lot of meaning available and is not reducible to "body plus breath" for soul. But rather for a "living soul" one that is active and not asleep nor is it non-existent.

Gen 35:18 It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

Acts 7: 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 7 does not say "he ceased to exist" - it says "he fell asleep". Sleep is not something that is done by something that does not exist.

Stephen's statement was a statement "of faith" not a declaration that he was about to cease to exist.

Christ makes the same sort of -- I commit My Spirit unto Thee
Luke 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

Jesus in John 11 says "our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM" not "our friend Lazarus no longer exists - I go that he may exist again". Jesus then informs Mary that the one that believes on Him "will NEVER die" -- because in fact He only regards Lazarus' current condition as "sleep".

No text says "God takes the breath away from the soul".

Not one "soul no longer exists" can be found in the entire body for the state of a person who has died the first death.

In Matt 10:28 they can kill the body - but they cannot kill the soul.

If you stick with your Gen 2 definition - that Matt 10:28 statement can never be true. Here again we have context determining meaning.

The souls departed, the souls of those who have died - is a reference to those the "Sleep in Jesus". Not "they ceased to exist"

1 Thess 4:13
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Butch5]

Yes but we don't know the details .. so then when someone gets the breath knocked out of them we don't say "well then you must have been resurrected". Context determines the meaning for the term. Adam did not exist at all before he was created by God so then "became a living soul" has a lot of meaning available and is not reducible to "body plus breath" for soul. But rather for a "living soul" one that is active and not asleep nor is it non-existent.

We do have details. I gave you both passages.

Gen 35:18 It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called contradiction?

As I pointed out, nephesh is often translated life. Her life was departing. She died. Was she dead or alive? According to your argument she was dead and alive. Again, life and death are two opposing states they cannot both exist at the same time.

Acts 7: 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 7 does not say "he ceased to exist" - it says "he fell asleep". Sleep is not something that is done by something that does not exist.

Right, he fell asleep. Sleep is a metaphor for death. Was He dead or was he alive? Did his life cease? Yes or no. It did. Thus his life ceased or his soul ceased.

Jesus in John 11 says "our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM" not "our friend Lazarus no longer exists - I go that he may exist again". Jesus then informs Mary that the one that believes on Him "will NEVER die" -- because in fact He only regards Lazarus' current condition as "sleep".

again, sleep is metaohor death. Was he dead? If so, his life ceased.

No text says "God takes the breath away from the soul".

Not one "soul no longer exists" can be found in the entire body for the state of a person who has died the first death.

Isaiah 53:12 (KJV 1900): 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
And he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
Because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
And he was numbered with the transgressors;
And he bare the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

Jesus' soul died.

In Matt 10:28 they can kill the body - but they cannot kill the soul.

If you stick with your Gen 2 definition - that Matt 10:28 statement can never be true. Here again we have context determining meaning.

If we understand the passage it can be.

The souls departed, the souls of those who have died - is a reference to those the "Sleep in Jesus". Not "they ceased to exist"

1 Thess 4:13
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


We both agree on that part when it comes to the body.

Right, they're dead. Are they alive or dead? If they're life is gone then it ceased. They ceased to be alive. If they're alive somewhere they're not dead. None of these passages suggest that their body is sleeping, dead, but their ghost is alive and doing well.

 

[BobRyan]

Did his life cease? Yes or no. It did. Thus his life ceased or his soul ceased.

No text says what when the body dies the "soul ceases" -- and that is the problem with your statement.

again, sleep is metaohor death. Was he dead? If so, his life ceased.

No doubt the body ceased to be alive. It was dead.

But a dead thing does not sleep. In fact you claim it does not even exist.

Jesus' soul died.

No text says that --

Matt 26 Jesus said 38 Then He *said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.”

Yet Jesus was alive - BOTH body and soul at the time.

If they're life is gone then it ceased. They ceased to be alive. If they're alive somewhere they're not dead.

"they kill the body BUT NOT the soul" Matt 10:28 in the first death.

The decayed back-to-dust body is not sleeping. In fact 1 Cor 15 clearly says that the body that is resurrected is NOT the body that died.

The body that dies never comes back - it returns to dust and is gone. An entirely new body is needed as 2 Cor 5:1-5 states.

 

[Butch5]

No text says what when the body dies the "soul ceases" -- and that is the problem with your statement.

No doubt the body ceased to be alive. It was dead.

But a dead thing does not sleep. In fact you claim it does not even exist.

No text says that --

Matt 26 Jesus said 38 Then He *said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.”

Yet Jesus was alive - BOTH body and soul at the time.

"they kill the body BUT NOT the soul" Matt 10:28 in the first death.

The decayed back-to-dust body is not sleeping. In fact 1 Cor 15 clearly says that the body that is resurrected is NOT the body that died.

The body that dies never comes back - it returns to dust and is gone. An entirely new body is needed as 2 Cor 5:1-5 states.

I will reply when I have a few minutes. In the mean time can you please define what you mean by soul so I can try to understand what your argument is.