THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

[Davy]

See, you proved my point. You don't understand spirit and soul, thus you don't understand the passages you quoted. I could explain it all to you but I fear it would be a waste of time as I get the impression that you're not interested.

That's a false assumption on your part. I well know... the difference between flesh and spirit.

Spirit is NOT of the flesh at all! Our 'spirit' is one order, and our flesh is of another.

John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
KJV

How can the "spirit" of Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 be about earthly physical breath, since this "spirit" Solomon says goes back to God Who gave it? Does GOD breath the physical air of the sky atmosphere around the earth?

The Jew's doctrine just shows how backward and superstitiously they think about the order of Spirit, wrongly associating it with this material dimension of earthly matter.

 

[Davy]

Thanks but no. That was not what I was saying at all. According to the new testament scriptures;
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. I believe all of God's Word.

Take Care.

2 Timothy 3:16 isn't the subject though. The New Testament Scriptures which prove that our soul-spirit does NOT die with our flesh, is the subject.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

See, you proved my point. You don't understand spirit and soul, thus you don't understand the passages you quoted. I could explain it all to you but I fear it would be a waste of time as I get the impression that you're not interested.

True you hit the nail on the head here. I just tried to explain it to him in post 250 linked. The post was ignored and responded to with things the post was not even discussing.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You posted

Davy said: ↑ You mean why do I keep going to THE NEW TESTAMENT for proof that our soul with spirit continues in life in the heavenly dimension after flesh death? Because that's where we are given clear descriptions about it. But YOU wanted me to stay in the OLD Testament, didn't you? Nah, I brought up the New Testament Scripture evidence many posts ago, and that still has not been addressed yet.

responded with...

Thanks but no. That was not what I was saying at all. According to the new testament scriptures; 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. I believe all of God's Word.

Now you post...

2 Timothy 3:16 isn't the subject though. The New Testament Scriptures which prove that our soul-spirit does NOT die with our flesh, is the subject.

It is relevant to the post from you I was quoting from. You were ignoring post 250 linked and the scriptures from the Old and New testament that shows the biblical meaning of what the soul and spirit is from scripture and the Hebrew and Greek. You seem to want to ignore a lot of scripture form the old and new testament as shown in the OP and all the scriptures posted on page 1 of this thread showing from scripture why your teachings are not biblical. Anyway you are free to believe as you wish. That is between you and God.

Take Care.

 

[Butch5]

That's a false assumption on your part. I well know... the difference between flesh and spirit.

Spirit is NOT of the flesh at all! Our 'spirit' is one order, and our flesh is of another.

John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
KJV

How can the "spirit" of Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 be about earthly physical breath, since this "spirit" Solomon says goes back to God Who gave it? Does GOD breath the physical air of the sky atmosphere around the earth?

The Jew's doctrine just shows how backward and superstitiously they think about the order of Spirit, wrongly associating it with this material dimension of earthly matter.

It's not a false assumption, I'll prove it. Simple question, what is "our" spirit?

 

[Butch5]

True you hit the nail on the head here. I just tried to explain it to him in post 250 linked. The post was ignored and responded to with things the post was not even discussing.

It's been my experience that few are those who seek the truth. Many just want to argue or prove themselves right. I'm in another discussion right now where people are claiming their argument is Biblical yet they can't supply a single passage of Scripture to support their main claim. Whenever, I point out a flaw or contradiction in their reasoning they just ignore it or sidestep it and continue to make the same illogical argument all over again. It's like they believe if they repeat it enough it will some how become truth.

 

[Davy]

True you hit the nail on the head here. I just tried to explain it to him in post 250 linked. The post was ignored and responded to with things the post was not even discussing.

I wouldn't hand out kudos just yet that don't provide any Biblical support, but are only festoons of non-accomplishment.

 

[Davy]

It's not a false assumption, I'll prove it. Simple question, what is "our" spirit?

So you believe our Heavenly Father in Heaven breathes... physical air of the sky around the earth, a gas that is part of material matter of this earthly universe! I knew it all along, as some of the Jews even wrongly believe that God's Abode is actually IN THE SKY ATMOSPHERE AROUND THE EARTH! Those who think that might as well go back and live... in the 'dark ages'!

 

[Butch5]

God rebuke you, as I well know you're directing that at me!

Actually it wasn't at you. As I said I'm in another discussion. But I don't think you're interested in serious discussion.

 

[Butch5]

So you believe our Heavenly Father in Heaven breathes... physical air of the sky around the earth, a gas that is part of material matter of this earthly universe! I knew it all along, as some of the Jews even wrongly believe that God's Abode is actually IN THE SKY ATMOSPHERE AROUND THE EARTH! Those who think that might as well go back and live... in the 'dark ages'!

See, you didn't answer the question. Instead you wrongly imposed your belief. It was a simple question. I asked what is "our" spirit. If you understand those passages as you claim the answer to that question is really simple.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It's been my experience that few are those who seek the truth. Many just want to argue or prove themselves right. I'm in another discussion right now where people are claiming their argument is Biblical yet they can't supply a single passage of Scripture to suppose their main claim. Whenever, I point out a flaw or contradiction in their reasoning they just ignore it or sidestep it and continue to make the same illogical argument all over again. It's like they believe if they repeat it enough it will some how become truth.

Agreed the many are called but only the few chosen which means many do not want to hear and see Gods Word.

 

[Davy]

Actually it wasn't at you. As I said I'm in another discussion. But I don't think you're interested in serious discussion.

Well, you did it again, threw insults at me.

 

[Davy]

Well, you did it again, threw insults at me.

You're simply back to denying the New Testament Scriptures about the continuation of the soul, which I posted and you still... refuse to address as written.

 

[Butch5]

Well, you did it again, threw insults at me.

What insult would tha be?

 

[Butch5]

You're simply back to denying the New Testament Scriptures about the continuation of the soul, which I posted and you still... refuse to address as written.

You haven't establised that it does continue. Posting a passage of Scripture and saying this proves your point doesn't prove your point unless it states that the soul continues on after death. Anything else is an inference. Unless you show how your inference is the only one possible you're not proving your point, but rather just giving your understanding of the passage.

 

[Butch5]

You haven't establised that it does continue. Posting a passage of Scripture and saying this proves your point doesn't prove your point unless it states that the soul continues on after death. Anything else is am inference. Unless you show how your inference is the only one possible you're not proving your point, but rather just giving your understanding of the passage.

What Scripture teaches us that the soul lives on after death

 

[Davy]

You haven't establised that it does continue. Posting a passage of Scripture and saying this proves your point doesn't prove your point unless it states that the soul continues on after death. Anything else is an inference. Unless you show how your inference is the only one possible you're not proving your point, but rather just giving your understanding of the passage.

I don't have to establish anything. The New Testament Witness already has, even Lord Jesus Christ by His witness of Matthew 10:28, and Luke 23:42-43, and in Luke 16:19-31; and by Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5.

 

[Butch5]

I don't have to establish anything. The New Testament Witness already has, even Lord Jesus Christ by His witness of Matthew 10:28, and Luke 23:42-43, and in Luke 16:19-31; and by Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5.

No one said you had to. It was a request. Your understanding of those passages isn't proof that your understanding of those passages is correct. That's a logical fallacy called Begging the Question or Circular Reasoning. It's like saying it means this because I say so. Sorry that doesn't cut it. You claim the soul lives on after death, the onus is on you to establish that. If you can't then you're just giving us you opinion.

 

[JLHargus]

LoveGodsWord: Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

JL: [Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:]KJV

The spirit, breath of life, of all human beings returns to God for their particular or individual judgement after bodily death, whether good breath or bad breath. [Pun intended] So what do you say is that spirit that goes back to God, a lifeless useless breath of air? That isn't the case. It is life=spirit of a human being that shall never die, even though the body is dead.

If the soul is nothing more than breath, why does it go back to God? Where did the indwelling Holy Spirit go, and what happened to that eternal life given when saved, was it temporary? Jesus seems to be under the impression all will die bodily, yet the breath=soul the life of a human body never dies.

[Jn11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?]KJV

[2Cor5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.]KJV

[Hb12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]KJV

In Hebrews 12 above we see the spirits of just men made perfect in heaven with God=Jesus and angels. In Rv5:8 below we see the spirits=souls of 24 elders in heaven offering the prayers of saints and worshipping our Lord. Both Hb12 above and Rv5 below clearly teach the spirits of just men made perfect are in heaven, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, awaiting the resurrection of their glorified bodies.

[Rv5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.]KJV


LoveGodsWord: The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God’s book does the “spirit” have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the “breath of life” and nothing more.

JL: Yes the breath of life, the life=spirit of a human being. You say above: "Nowhere in all of God’s book does the “spirit” have any life." Yet Christ says differently.

[Mt10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.]KJV

Christ teaches the spirit does have life when the body dies, otherwise any human being can kill both body and soul. Your statement contradicts Our Lord's words in scripture. Scripture also tells us to fear God who can destroy both soul and body. Where will God destroy both body and soul? In the lake of fire, when hell and death is cast into the lake of fire, the second death, where their worm never dies, Mk9:47- and there shall be gnashing of teeth, Lk13:28.

[Rv20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11-13 .... 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.]KJV


LoveGodsWord: Nowhere in all of God’s book does the “spirit” have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the “breath of life” and nothing more.

JL: Our Lord reveals in Lk16:19-31, in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. That souls of the bodily dead have life, wisdom and feelings, they are aware and speak. Those spirits are conscious and aware in Sheol=Hades=Hell, the abode of all souls of the bodily dead, whether saved or unsaved, before Christ's time.

The rich man is bodily dead, his soul goes into a chamber of torment. He is aware that he is in torment and speaks with the bodily dead Abraham, who is in the Chamber called Abraham's bosom=paradise. In Abraham's bosom we see the soul of the dead beggar=Lazarus whose soul was carried to Abraham's bosom, where he is comforted. Angels certainly didn't carry a dead body to the grave living human beings did.

[Lk16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.]KJV

When Christ ascended he opened heaven for the spirits of just men made perfect. The unjust spirits of men still go to Sheol=Hades=Hell the chamber of torment until the resurrection of the body. After the Last Judgment Hell with its inhabitants will be thrown into the Lake of Fire alive.

[Rv20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.]KJV

[Lk23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.]KJV

King David, [Acts2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.]KJV

Christ's soul descended into hell=hades where Christ in spirit preached to the dead spirits of bodily dead men. Christ's flesh lay in the tomb for three days and saw no corruption. Christ's soul returned to His resurrected glorified body on the third day.

[Eph4:8-10 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)]KJV

[1Pt4:5 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.]KJV

Our Lord when bodily dead descended into hell=hades, in spirit=soul and preached to the captive spirits of the bodily dead. Those who heard are the just spirits in Abraham's Bosom, which he took into heaven when he ascended. We see those spirits of just men now in heaven in Hb12:23.

[Hb12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]KJV

The bodily dead spirits of just men made perfect are in heaven, according to Hb12:23 above. Rv4:4 The souls of the twenty-four elders of bodily dead men are in heaven.

[Rv6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?]KJV

[2Cor5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[Mk12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.]KJV
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[JLHargus]

LoveGodsWord: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God’s Word teaches that we are souls—not that we have souls.

JL: Yes, there are two components to a natural human being, body=flesh, soul=life=immortal soul. The soul=breath of life is the life of a living human being. Without the breath of life=spirit, the body is dead, a corpse of a human being, Jms2:26. With your theory, A soul cannot exist unless body and breath, any man can kill both body and soul. If the soul is the living being, when one kills the living being he has killed body and soul contrary to Christ's words in Scripture.

[Mt10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.]KJV
In Rv7:9 below we see the souls of a great multitude in heaven.

[Rv7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;]KJV

The soul is the life, the body is the tent=tabernacle, the house which clothes that life=soul.
[2Cor5: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.]KJV

What would be naked? The Soul, without the body=house.


LoveGodsWord: According to God’s Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die.

JL: Yes, man is mortal but the God breathed soul is spirit, life, therefore immortal. God created spirits immortal such as angels, good and bad. Angels=spirits do not die nor do souls=spirits of men. Scripture clearly teaches only God has disposition over the soul=spirit.

[Mt10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.]KJV

When God says a soul dies it doesn't necessarily mean no life. Death can not only refer to the death of the body, when the living soul departs and man is cut off, separated from earthly life. Death also refers to spiritual death of the soul when the soul is cut off, separated from God by sin.

[Ezk18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.]KJV

[Eph2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;]KJV

[Col2:13 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;]KJV

Quickened is usually translated as made alive. Paul is speaking to former carnal living persons, the flesh ruled over a spiritually dead soul cut off by sin from God. Now born again to eternal life, a Christian, the soul is made alive spiritually with the indwelling Holy Spirit no longer separated cut off from God by sin. The soul now has the power through the indwelling Holy Spirit to govern over the flesh. The death of only the soul, losing the Holy Spirit, by mortal sin is spiritual death, leaving the body alive just as the death of the body leaves the soul alive. The soul is immortal whether spiritually alive or dead in sin. All spirits are created by God to be immortal. That's why evil spirits, demons never die.

[1Tim5:5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day. 6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.]KJV

[Gn2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.]KJV

Adam and Eve both died spiritually that day through sin, to eternal life, yet lived bodily many more years. They were cut off and separated from the life of God, the day they sinned their soul spiritually died.

[Mt8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.]KJV

When God says we die, we are dead, bodily or spiritually or both, but it does not mean no life, as we see in many scriptures.


LoveGodsWord: Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul is not found in the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

JL: Above you said, "The concept of an undying, immortal soul is not found in the Bible." Your remark contradicts what Jesus tells us in the Bible in Mt10.

[Mt10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.]KJV

Yes, only God has immortality and by His design He freely created spirits immortal. All angels, good or bad were created as immortal spirits and do not die. Human beings were created to live forever but Adam sinned and lost that gift of God. A human being has two components body=flesh and the God breathed life=soul, which is spirit by God's created design.

Our God given created immortal spirit=soul, just as angels never die. Only God can destroy a spirit as Christ reveals in Mt10. We know bodies die and are raised on the last day. Yet scripture tells us the spirits of just men are now in Heavenly Jerusalem, the same place Jesus is present.

[Hb12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]KJV

Even here on earth I have eternal life=Holy Spirit indwelling my life force=soul. Many human beings even now on earth have eternal life. They possess the very life of God, which absolutely must begin here on earth with the indwelling of their life force, the soul by the Holy Spirit. In fact eternal life is only given and received in this life not after death. Eternal life and immortality are not quite the same.

Good angels have both immortality and eternal life as they possess God. Satan and fallen angels have immortality, they do not die, yet they do not possess eternal life. They are separated, cut off from the life of God and heirs to eternal punishment. Having immortal existence with all the chaos and mayhem being cut off from God entails. Their eternal existence is called the second death, it is not a real death nor a real life but existence. Their life is destroyed, just as substance abuse can literally destroy man's body and life to the point he is only existing, yet not bodily dead.

The body will put on immortality at the resurrection, as the flesh or body is not yet immortal. The soul is immortal by God's created design and possesses eternal life if indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The resurrected unsaved will never die, as death along with Hades will be cast into the Lake of fire. only the just have eternal life along with a glorified body, because the Holy Spirit indwells the just soul.

[1Cor15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.]KJV
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