The Ten Horns of Revelation 17’s Beast

[Barraco]

I don't necessarily believe the 10 toes are the EU, but to be fair, Daniel 2:43 does say "but they shall not cleave one to another".

The remains of the Ottoman Empire have not cleaved one to the other either. They act in concert with each other only when fighting against a common enemy for the cause of Islam. Being that the Ottoman Emperors claimed to be Caesar of Rome and their religion's name literally means submission, it is more likely that the Islamic remnants of the Ottoman Empire are the ten toes than the EU.

 

[AYM]

The remains of the Ottoman Empire have not cleaved one to the other either. They act in concert with each other only when fighting against a common enemy for the cause of Islam. Being that the Ottoman Emperors claimed to be Caesar of Rome and their religion's name literally means submission, it is more likely that the Islamic remnants of the Ottoman Empire are the ten toes than the EU.

Plenty of other rulers also made similar claims though, from the Pontifex Maximus (pope) to the German Kaisers and the Russian czars.

Also why do they count as part of the Ottoman Empire? They were Islamic long before the Turks swept through.

 

[Barraco]

Plenty of other rulers also made similar claims though, from the Pontifex Maximus (pope) to the German Kaisers and the Russian czars.

Also why do they count as part of the Ottoman Empire? They were Islamic long before the Turks swept through.

Because the capital of Rome was moved to Constantinople, remained the capital until the end of the Ottoman Empire. The early emperors claimed inheritance of Caesar of Rome and protested others using it. The citizens they conquered continued to refer to them as such as well.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Because the capital of Rome was moved to Constantinople, remained the capital until the end of the Ottoman Empire. The early emperors claimed inheritance of Caesar of Rome and protested others using it. The citizens they conquered continued to refer to them as such as well.

It is not that simple. The Ottomans originated in central Asia and had no genetic ties either to the Romans nor to the Arabs nor to the Ishmailites. They adopted Islam as their religion, but their primary identity today is Turkish, although for many it as Sunni Muslim, neither of which has the slightest relationship with the Roman Empire, eastern or western.

 

[Barraco]

It is not that simple. The Ottomans originated in central Asia and had no genetic ties either to the Romans nor to the Arabs nor to the Ishmailites. They adopted Islam as their religion, but their primary identity today is Turkish, although for many it as Sunni Muslim, neither of which has the slightest relationship with the Roman Empire, eastern or western.

I think you are looking too deep into it. Daniel saw 4 beasts in Daniel 7. All were significantly different but conquered each other. The Turks conquered the Byzantine Empire when it took Constantinople in 1453. They became the successors just as Persia became the successors of the Babylonian empire when they conquered Babylon.

In the same way, the two horned beast (Ottoman , or Turkish, Empire) succeeded the Roman Empire when it conquered Byzantine. Their leaders, in the beginning, even called themselves Caesar of Rome. The Ottoman Empire adopted Islam as its state religion and the states around Israel today are its remnants.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think you are looking too deep into it. Daniel saw 4 beasts in Daniel 7. All were significantly different but conquered each other. The Turks conquered the Byzantine Empire when it took Constantinople in 1453. They became the successors just as Persia became the successors of the Babylonian empire when they conquered Babylon.

In the same way, the two horned beast (Ottoman , or Turkish, Empire) succeeded the Roman Empire when it conquered Byzantine. Their leaders, in the beginning, even called themselves Caesar of Rome. The Ottoman Empire adopted Islam as its state religion and the states around Israel today are its remnants.

Actually, the Abbasid caliphate predated the Ottoman Empire by centuries and was gradually conquered by the Ottomans who attempted to legitimize their conquest theologically by claiming to the the true Islamic Caliphate. At its full extent, the Abbasid extended into Spain. Its history is lengthy with many twists and turns. Wikipedia has an excellent article about it here - Abbasid Caliphate - Wikipedia

Here is the equally fine Wikipedia entry for the Ottoman Empire - Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia As you can see, there are only vague similarities between either empire and the prophecies of Daniel. The Ottoman Empire conquered the remnants and portions of the previous Abbasid caliphate as well as Byzantium.

The remnants of the Ottoman Empire, as with the Abbasid caliphate extend from Spain eastward into Afghanistan and northward into Romania and Bulgaria.

 

[Fisherking]

I don't necessarily believe the 10 toes are the EU, but to be fair, Daniel 2:43 does say "but they shall not cleave one to another".

This is why people miss it, the 10 of "Iron" (Rome) and Clay tells us what? That Rome or thar region, will reform but in this end time gov., after 2000 years of them being fractured into many smaller countries, when they come back together it will not be as the former (Dan. 7:24 says a Little Horn/A.C. will arise from the 10 but he will be different from the First or Rome) they will instead be very fractured, well yes when you have 25 some odd old nations, trying to be one nation, its not going to run as smooth as Old Rome.

The fact that its Iron & Clay tells us it has to be the E.U. the 10 is not really the key, I mean the 10 virgin brides equals the complete church, God uses numbers to keep Satan from knowing his full plans. The 10 simply means complete Europe Reunited. With a few strong nations and many weak nations.

 

[bbbbbbb]

This is why people miss it, the 10 of "Iron" (Rome) and Clay tells us what? That Rome or thar region, will reform but in this end time gov., after 2000 years of them being fractured into many smaller countries, when they come back together it will not be as the former (Dan. 7:24 says a Little Horn/A.C. will arise from the 10 but he will be different from the First or Rome) they will instead be very fractured, well yes when you have 25 some odd old nations, trying to be one nation, its not going to run as smooth as Old Rome.

The fact that its Iron & Clay tells us it has to be the E.U. the 10 is not really the key, I mean the 10 virgin brides equals the complete church, God uses numbers to keep Satan from knowing his full plans. The 10 simply means complete Europe Reunited. With a few strong nations and many weak nations.

The fact remains that even in its present condition, the EU fails to cover the same geographic territory as the Roman Empire did in any of its history. It would be just as plausible to claim that an Islamic caliphate is the prophesied ten horns. Or, that a renewed Russian empire with Orthodoxy is the manifestation of the ten horns.

 

[Fisherking]

The fact remains that even in its present condition, the EU fails to cover the same geographic territory as the Roman Empire did in any of its history. It would be just as plausible to claim that an Islamic caliphate is the prophesied ten horns. Or, that a renewed Russian empire with Orthodoxy is the manifestation of the ten horns.

I agree, but we must add in the Nations he conquers in Dan. 11:40-43. Ever hear of the European Neighborhood Policy? Its an agreement between the E.U. and Israel, but also between every nation on the Mediterranean Coastline, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco. Their goals as stated (wiki shows it all) is to try to develop closer ties with these nations and the maybe see some of the nations someday as worthy to become partners (join the E.U.). These agreements ran from 2007-2013 and from 2014-2020 or in 7 year cycles.

In Dan. 8:9 we see this Little Horn conquers towards the east, south and Israel. So, he's going to conquer Turkey (Seleucus) and Egypt (all of North Africa according to Dan. 11) trying to be brief, but these scriptures below ties it all together.

Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north(A.C.) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries(not just Israel, he conquers Turkey, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan to get at Israel, the big prize) , and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land(Israel), and many countries shall be overthrown(This is THE MANY of Dan. 8:25 and 9:27): but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.( So, he is not allowed to conquer Central & Southern Jordan, where the children of Israel flee unto in the Petra/Bozrah area)

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

So, you are very perceptive, the E.U. by itself can not be a Beast until it fulfills what the other Beasts fulfilled, conquering Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region. So, add in Turkey to the above nations and that is Old Rome circa 117 AD.

Of course they can't be a Beast until they go forth conquering.

 

[anetazo]

Daniel chapter 2. The clay and iron isn't rome. It's the political system of revelation chapter 13.

Communism and christianity don't mix. Near future, the one world political system receives deadly wound. At the 6th trump, antichrist heals deadly wound by establishing world peace. 5 month period.
Revelation chapter 13 to document.

 

[Timtofly]

This is why people miss it, the 10 of "Iron" (Rome) and Clay tells us what? That Rome or thar region, will reform but in this end time gov., after 2000 years of them being fractured into many smaller countries, when they come back together it will not be as the former (Dan. 7:24 says a Little Horn/A.C. will arise from the 10 but he will be different from the First or Rome) they will instead be very fractured, well yes when you have 25 some odd old nations, trying to be one nation, its not going to run as smooth as Old Rome.

The fact that its Iron & Clay tells us it has to be the E.U. the 10 is not really the key, I mean the 10 virgin brides equals the complete church, God uses numbers to keep Satan from knowing his full plans. The 10 simply means complete Europe Reunited. With a few strong nations and many weak nations.

The ten toes or 5th kingdom lasted from around 450AD to 1500AD. The 6th Kingdom is currently a non kingdom. It was dead from the get go. No prophecy covers the 6th kingdom except Revelation 13 which claims one of the heads had a mortal wound. So the 6th Kingdom is officially dead. And has always been dead. No single nation has had control over the empire that the image of Daniel 2 gives us since Rome was officially over.

It won't be until after the Second Coming that the 6th Kingdom will briefly be restored.

The image from Daniel 2 only gives us 5 kingdoms. The rest of Daniel gives us specifics on those 5 kingdoms. To finish up the historical relationship between nations and Israel, we have to read Revelation and the 7 headed dragon. That is the 6th kingdom, and the kingdom of Satan if allowed. Jesus Christ is the 7th King and Kingdom on earth. Jesus is not part of the image in Daniel 2 nor the 7 headed beast in Revelation 12, 13, and 17. But at the 7th Trumpet, Jesus will be declared as the 7th King and 7th Kingdom. Revelation 11:15

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."