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Featured The ten horns of Daniel...

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Hiscosmicgoldfish3, May 30, 2018.

  1. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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    Old Jerusalem , city of seven hills.
    Called a whore by the prophet.
    Its in your bible.

    Isaiah 1:21 See how the faithful city has become a prostitute! She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her-- but now murderers!
     
  2. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    The ten kings had ten kingdoms: Franks, Huns, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Heruli, Lombards, Anglo-Saxons, Suevi, Vandals, and Burgundians.

    According to Daniel, a horn is a king, not a kingdom - those barbarian kingdoms would have had many kings each. It's a minor point, I suppose. The thing with the preterist interpretation, is that the 10 kings are predecessors of Antiochus IV. The preterist interpretation seems to fit as well, as possibly the historicist.

    It did for a time.
    Romans in Persia - Wikipedia

    OK - I agree that Rome crushed Persia, for a time. So the 4th beast could be Rome.

    I concur regarding an identifiable papacy in the 4th century.
    Everlasting Gospel
    contains some historical testimony and rationale regarding the 538 date.

    Yep - good evidence.

    It derives from the day-year associations found in Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6. 3 1/2 years is 1260 days, or 1260 years after the association is applied.

    Indisputably true. I agree:

    Who confirmed the covenant? -

    Furthermore, it's useful to recognize that the term covenant is not the same term as the word treaty. We separate the Bible into the Old Testament and the New Testament, and the word "testament" is interchangeable with the term covenant (see Hebrews 9:15). On the other hand, a treaty is a political instrument that is used between nations - not a sacred agreement between God and man.

    CHRISTIAN MEDIA RESEARCH - Newsletter - Who Confirmed The Covenant?


    Regarding the 70 weeks - if, as you agree, it is true that the 70 weeks were fulfilled by Jesus, then what make ye of the following:

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to

    [a] finish the transgression

    and to make an end of sins

    [c] and to make reconciliation for iniquity

    [d] and to bring in everlasting righteousness

    [e]
    and to seal up the vision and prophecy - this one might upset those who believe that vision and prophesy continued after the time of Daniel? Bear in mind that Jesus' ministry was during the 3 1/2 years, after his baptism - that would make Jesus the last prophet, according to Daniel, and assuming that the 70 weeks have been fulfilled already.
    There is also the final 3 1/2 years of the 70 weeks? - assuming that Jesus was cut off mid week?
    The SDA say that that was until the stoning of Steven - a reasonable conclusion.. but what if the final 3 1/2 years are projected into the future? and the last days? not all that antichrist/Temple stuff from the hard-line dispensationalists - but a final tribulation?

    However, there is the problem of projecting 3 1/2 years into the future - without good justification?

    [f] and to anoint the most holy."

    Joel Richardson promotes the Islamo-centric interpretation of Daniel. That goes against everyone through history, both secular and religious, who see the four beasts of Daniel as Babylon, Media/Persia, Alexander, and the Seleucid Empire or Rome.
    Joel claims that the fourth beast didn't crush Persia, and that only Islam crushed Persia - but makes no attempt to explain what the 3 horns are, or the little horn.
    I still have a problem with the SDA type interpretation of the 10 horns and 3 horns - they miss out the Eastern Roman Empire: inc. Asia Minor (Turkey), Syria, Palestine and Egypt - and they concentrate on the Western Empire.
    It might be true, or it might be that Daniel 7 is describing a type of the Antichrist, based on Antiochus IV - the main persecuting religious power, was based on the remains of the Western Roman Empire.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  3. TheBibleIsTruth

    TheBibleIsTruth Well-Known Member

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    To be a King means you have a Kingdom!
     
  4. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    Yep. I am coming round to the SDA type interpretation, or a dual-interpretation - Both, the preterist Antiochus IV, and the controversial historicist SDA interpretation - both seem to fit.
     
  5. TheBibleIsTruth

    TheBibleIsTruth Well-Known Member

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    It has nothing to do with SDA interpretation, as it has been known for centuries that Kingdoms are meant by the 10 horns.
     
  6. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    All I'm saying is, that in these times, the SDA are the only church that still teach the historicist interpretation (as far as I know) - the modern protestants have forgotten what the reformation was about, and have embraced futurism and dispensationalism - so to try and learn and understand prophesy - you encounter two camps, two belief systems - with nearly everybody in the US believing in the rapture and 7 years tribulation, rebuilt Jewish Temple, and futurist antichrist, as a result.
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The ten kings are ten kings of the fourth kingdom. They are not ten kingdoms. They are end times kings, when the Kingdom of God would have dominion over the nations.

    Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    The have their crowns to rule with the beast when there are 42 months left in the 7 years.

    Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    The person as the little horn, emerges out of their kingdom, at the latter times of it. In Daniel 8, in the latter time of their kingdom (the final form of the EU) when the transgressors (the ten kings are in place) have come to the full....

    Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up

    The kingdom of the beast and ten kings will be the EU when Jesus returns to this earth.
     
  8. TheBibleIsTruth

    TheBibleIsTruth Well-Known Member

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    The fact that you mention the EU, which has 28 member countries, makes you assumption a non starter. Why can't it be ten states in the USA?
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You take what you can from the futurist camp for the general direction and then refine to correct the errors within it that don't correspond to fit the prophecies in Daniel 2, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12 - Revelation 6-19 - and Matthew 24 - 1Thessalonians5 - 2Thessalonians3-4.

    I have given you the formula for the general structure of the 7 years timline.

    Whenever you see a time, times, half times - that is in the second half of the seven years.

    Whenever you see 42 months - that is in the second half of the seven years.

    Whenever you see 1260 days - that is the first half of the seven years.

    I have given you that the person is on two tracks....

    1. to become the King of the fourth empire, the Roman Empire, as the 7th and 8th king. Most of Revelation 6-19 is about the person as King of the Roman Empire of the end times, the EU.

    2. to become the King of Israel, thought to be messiah the Antichrist for a short time, before he goes bad, thinking he has achieved God-hood.
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No it doesn't. The number of countries is irrelevant.

    The ten kings are ten leaders. The EU could be zoned into ten voting regions or districts; some regions having several countries, to equalize the people representation of each region. The little horn person would be over the ten leaders. Who knows what the ten leaders will be called as far as title goes.

    Ten states in the USA is not north and west of Israel and the middle east to fulfill Daniel 8:9 for one thing. And ten states in the USA don't have their own army, military.
     
  11. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    Daniel 8 is another chapter, but I'll have a look at it:

    Vision of a Ram and a Goat
    8 In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a vision appeared to me, Daniel, after the one that had appeared to me at first. 2 In the vision I was looking and saw myself in Susa the capital, in the province of Elam, and I was by the river Ulai. 3 I looked up and saw a ram standing beside the river. It had two horns. Both horns were long, but one was longer than the other, and the longer one came up second. 4 I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward. All beasts were powerless to withstand it, and no one could rescue from its power; it did as it pleased and became strong.

    Persia and Media.

    5 As I was watching, a male goat appeared from the west, coming across the face of the whole earth without touching the ground. The goat had a horn between its eyes. 6 It came toward the ram with the two horns that I had seen standing beside the river, and it ran at it with savage force. 7 I saw it approaching the ram. It was enraged against it and struck the ram, breaking its two horns. The ram did not have power to withstand it; it threw the ram down to the ground and trampled upon it, and there was no one who could rescue the ram from its power. 8 Then the male goat grew exceedingly great; but at the height of its power, the great horn was broken, and in its place there came up four prominent horns toward the four winds of heaven.

    Alexander and the four Greek successors.

    9 Out of one of them came another horn, a little one, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the beautiful land. 10 It grew as high as the host of heaven. It threw down to the earth some of the host and some of the stars, and trampled on them. 11 Even against the prince of the host it acted arrogantly; it took the regular burnt offering away from him and overthrew the place of his sanctuary. 12 Because of wickedness, the host was given over to it together with the regular burnt offering; it cast truth to the ground, and kept prospering in what it did. 13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one that spoke, “For how long is this vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled?” 14 And he answered him, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

    The little horn here is Antiochus IV.

    Gabriel Interprets the Vision
    15 When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I tried to understand it. Then someone appeared standing before me, having the appearance of a man, 16 and I heard a human voice by the Ulai, calling, “Gabriel, help this man understand the vision.” 17 So he came near where I stood; and when he came, I became frightened and fell prostrate. But he said to me, “Understand, O mortal, that the vision is for the time of the end.”

    18 As he was speaking to me, I fell into a trance, face to the ground; then he touched me and set me on my feet. 19 He said, “Listen, and I will tell you what will take place later in the period of wrath; for it refers to the appointed time of the end. 20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The male goat is the king of Greece, and the great horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.

    Plainly described - how can Joel Richarson argue when the angel just explained it?

    23 At the end of their rule,
    when the transgressions have reached their full measure,
    a king of bold countenance shall arise,
    skilled in intrigue.
    24 He shall grow strong in power,
    shall cause fearful destruction,
    and shall succeed in what he does.
    He shall destroy the powerful
    and the people of the holy ones.
    25 By his cunning
    he shall make deceit prosper under his hand,
    and in his own mind he shall be great.
    Without warning he shall destroy many
    and shall even rise up against the Prince of princes.
    But he shall be broken, and not by human hands.

    Antiochus IV.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Brother goldfish, Daniel 8 can be easily misunderstood in reading, when the angel starts explaining.

    Daniel had a vision within a vision. That of the kings of persia, greece, and that greece would break up into 4 lesser kingdoms.

    Then Daniel has the vision of the little horn committing the transgression of desolation (that is the act in 2Thessalonians2:3-4 in the new testament, where the person goes into the temple sits, claims to be God)

    That vision is time of the end. And it's fulfillment along with the host that he has - are as well. The host is just meaning the big army he has, and the ten kings that will be aligned with him.

    So the angel starts explaining in verse 20, going through the king of persia, then the king of greece, then the break kingdoms in verse 22. That's where the already fulfilled parts of Daniel 8 end - in verse 22. And even so, Antiochus, unlike in Daniel 11, is nowhere in Daniel 8.

    12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

    Verse 23, jumps to the end times vision of the little horn, and the host that he has, all together they are called the transgressors in verse 23. Verse 23 to the end of Daniel 8 is end times.

    23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    It is their kingdom - singular - in verse 23 - of the transgressors. At the latter time of their kingdom. Not kingdoms plural, as the four breakup kingdoms in verse 22. That's one way, you can know it is not talking about Antiochus as a continuation of verse 22.

    The little horn in Daniel 8 is the same little horn in Daniel 7.

    The little horn person, at some point when he is reigning as the King of Israel (illegitimate) begins to magnify himself in heart (verse 25) - he begins to believe he has achieved God-hood.

    He will later be killed for his self-delusion, after he comitts the transgression of desolation.

    That God has him killed is in Ezekiel 28:1-10. The reason is given why in verse 2. Ezekiel 28 is divided into two code names - the prince of Tyrus (Tyre), for the little horn/then Antichrist/ then beast person; and the King of Tyrus for Satan.

    2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up (Daniel 8:25), and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God (2Thessalonians2:3-4), in the midst of the seas (the person is proclaiming to the whole world); yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

    So God has the person killed, and later in Isaiah 14 in disdain for the person does not allow him to remain in hell, and brings him back to life - it is then the person becomes the beast in Revelation 13.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  13. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    Douggg - you say that the historical part ends at verse 22:

    23 At the end of their rule,
    when the transgressions have reached their full measure,
    a king of bold countenance shall arise,
    skilled in intrigue.
    24 He shall grow strong in power,
    shall cause fearful destruction,
    and shall succeed in what he does.
    He shall destroy the powerful
    and the people of the holy ones.
    25 By his cunning
    he shall make deceit prosper under his hand,
    and in his own mind he shall be great.
    Without warning he shall destroy many
    and shall even rise up against the Prince of princes.
    But he shall be broken, and not by human hands.


    fair enough - the Prince of princes is Jesus or Michael? This part of chapter 11 might be an insight into an antichrist:

    36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

    38 But in his estate shall he honor the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

    39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

    Whoever this is, is an atheist. Doesn't seem to be describing Antiochus - he honors the god of forces (Lucifer). The desire of women is said to be ancient women's regard for Tammuz. Dividing the land for gain, is probably a reference to Israel.
     
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    True. As you've observed, historicism is based in the Reformation, and its accurate recognition of the apostate papacy as an antichrist fulfilling the prophecies and descriptions in in Daniel 7, 2 Thessalonians 2, John's epistles, and various portions of Revelation.

    There are various additional denominations which largely haven't bowed to the dispensational Baal e.g. Methodist, Presbyterian, Reformed, Lutheran (obviously), Church of God (Anderson, Indiana), et al.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You are ignoring the historical fact that Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue in the Jewish temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar during 167 BC, in order to make your doctrine work.





    .
     
  16. GUANO

    GUANO Well-Known Member

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    Historicist don't think the papacy has anything to do with the final "times".

    The papacy will exist until the end but it never reaches it's former glory.

    It is the time of the beast from the earth and the 'image' of the first beast. The general idea is that the papacy was wounded during the French revolution and/or the Napoleonic Wars. It survives. The power that replaces it is an image of it. That is the EU. Which set up the same way as the papal empite. An exclusive democrasy.
     
  17. gomerian

    gomerian Other Sheep

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    Daniel's 10 horns are not all about Rome. The first 7 of Revelation are 7 kingdoms that persecuted Israel, only 1 of which is Rome. And Daniel's 4-part statue is 3 of those, represented by Babylon, Persia, and Egypto-Danaan-Canaanite Doric Greece, with the 4th as a melding of all kingdoms under one iron fist. And the 8th of the 7 and the 4th of the 4 are one and the same, as the Beast of Revelation. The golden lion head of the Beast is Babylon, where the leopard fascade is the Hamitic Dorian Greece, the silver chest and arms with feet of a bear is Persian Islam... and the iron the is international industrialized communistic liberation of the barbarian hordes, with their figurehead puppets of clay.

    Until you can think your way out of the Roman box, Revelation will never make any sense to you. And isn't that why Jesus had John write the Revelation? to open all of the Books of the Prophets.
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not a lot there that the Reformers would agree with.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Not ignoring. Antiochus is in Daniel 11 - abomination of desolation. He is not in Daniel 8 - transgression of desolation.

    Two different things. Abomination of desolation is an idol, a statue.
    Transgression of desolation is an act by the person, going into the temple sitting, claiming to be God.


    You are ignoring Daniel 8:25 + 2Thessalonians2:3-4 + Ezekiel 28:2. Read those. They work hand in hand about the person magnifying himself in his heart thinking he has attained God-hood.
     
  20. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    I stay clear of Revelation.
    Revelation will never make any sense to you - agreed.
     
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