The ten horns of Daniel...

[Douggg]

Matthew 23:39 is included in the 70 weeks but the 70 weeks finished when Jesus drove the Roman army to destroy Jerusalem and burn the temple in the year 70dc.
Josephus makes a description that matches what Jesus said about the Jews and the end of the Jew age, which was the question posted by the disciples.
Albert Barns in his commentary of Mathew 24 makes a magnificent back to back comparison of Mathew 24 and History in Josephus words....

Welcome to the forum RA.

Jerusalem never has said to Jesus blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. In John 12:13, his followers welcomed him as the King of Israel who comes in the name of the Lord. The religious leaders though never did.

Some of the scribes mocked him at his crucifixion, saying...
Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

From that verse and John 5:43, we can know the end times person to be the Antichrist, must be anointed the King of Israel, perceived messiah for a short time.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

The Antichrist will be the person who God does not send to be their King of Israel, but the Jews embrace him anyway as their King following Gog/Magog.

He confirms the Mt Sinai covenant for 7 years as Moses required in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, recurring on the 7 year shmita cycle, on the feast of tabernacles. That's what starts the 7 years.

RA, it's just going to be a big globally televised speech from the temple mount, that God gave the promised land to the children of Israel as theirs forever. He will probably refer back to Moses and Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The person is also on a separate track as the King of the Roman Empire, which is what being little horn (7th king), and later the beast (8th king) is about. And most of Revelation is about him in that function.

It is only in Revelation 6, as the rider on the white horse at the beginning of the 7 years, that he is given a crown, that he is the Antichrist.

That miscalculation by the Jews ends in disaster as he betrays them and the Mt. Sinai covenant when he goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

 

[gomerian]

Thankfully, their diagnoses were accurate. Accuracy is better.

The Reformers... as in Calvinists? (shudder)

 

[Douggg]

God doesn't have him killed. The death by sword isn't a godly adventure. Men are the warriors, which is why God will be said to be doing His un-natural act... if God's was the warrior's hand, the act would hardly be outside of the norm.

I have no idea what you are talking about because you don't refer to bible verses. Here is where it says God is going to have the person killed.

Ezekiel 28:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[gomerian]

I have no idea what you are talking about because you don't refer to bible verses. Here is where it says God is going to have the person killed.

Ezekiel 28:

Fair enough.

Ezekiel is speaking of the absolute end of the Beast, isn't He? If He were talking of what made the Beast an object of worship, He wouldn't be calling it the 'deaths of the uncircumcised'... he's being treated as though he isn't even a son of Abraham, and the deaths of the uncircumcised is generally and specifically said about strangers: the uncircumcised.

Ezekiel 28:10 is an irony... perhaps the Beast is actually Esau, and only pretending to be an Israelite--who will be killed by the 'works of God's hand'--Assyria, who is in fact Hebrew... and probably doesn't know it. Ironic, yes?

 

[Waterwerx]

Just the opposite. Until a person can put together the Roman Empire connection as one track for the person. And the King of Israel messiah Antichrist the other track for the person. They can never get the end times right.

Islam ends as a global religion when Gog/Magog takes place. The 7 years of Daniel 9:27 follow the destruction of Gog's army. This 100% verifiable by the two feasts in Ezekiel 39:4 and Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast, 7 years after Gog/Magog. Jesus is the one speaking in Ezekiel 39:21.

When it says latter years and latter days, it means during the final 7 years prior to Christ's return to the earth.
Given the nations involved and the scale of the attack, I would hardly consider this anything other than an eschatological event which starts approximately half-way into the 7 year tribulation, continuing on through the 2nd half of the tribulation, and culminating at the battle of Armageddon.
Ezekiel 38:20
"so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.’"

I do not see two feasts, only the one in Ezekiel 39:17-20.
Ezekiel 39:4
"You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured."
It means what it says in that God is going to give Gog, his troops, and those who are with him over to the birds of prey and beasts of the field after they are killed. If anything beyond that, I would see it as a prelude to gather them for the greater feast that will follow Armageddon where "all" nations are gathered together and slaughtered when they try to go against Christ.

Putting this event before the tribulation presents more problems than it addresses and disregards numerous other Scripture,
Ezekiel 38:17
"Thus says the Lord God: “Are you he of whom I have spoken in former days by My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that I would bring you against them? "
such as Jeremiah 6, Joel 2, etc., which also makes references to a northern power intent on plundering Israel.

 

[Douggg]

Ezekiel is speaking of the absolute end of the Beast, isn't He?

No, Ezekiel 28, is actually speaking about the person before becomes the beast, but after he is no longer the Antichrist.

As the Antichrist, he is the King of Israel. He is the King of Israel, thought to be messiah by the Jews for about 3 years 3 months into the 7 years.

The Jews and the world will be thinking they are in the messianic age of peace and safety. That's what the first part of 1Thessalonians5 is about, them saying peace and safety.

The person has been into the occult for his success throughout his career, and goes off the deep end and thinks he has achieved God-hood.

So out of nowhere, totally unexpected, he goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. That act reveals him to be the man of sin, son of perdition - betrayer to the Jewish people. The Jews reject him at that point, ending his Kingship over Israel. Ending his time as the Antichrist.

All of that takes place around 3 years 3 months into the seven years. We don't have enough information to pinpoint it.

His claiming to be God triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

God is angered by his claim to be God. So in Ezekiel 28:1-10, has strangers come and kill him. He is the mortally wounded head in Revelation 13. He is not the beast yet. But the revealed man of sin.

The person finds himself in hell, mocked. God in disdain for the person doesn't let stay there and brings him back to life. It is at that point of coming back alive, the person becomes the beast - because an unclean spirit of some ancient person (also called the beast), imo, nimrod, comes out of the bottomless pit to possess him.

As the beast, he rules over planet earth for 42 months until Jesus returns and the beast is cast alive into the lake of fire in Revelation 19.

 

[Douggg]

If He were talking of what made the Beast an object of worship, He wouldn't be calling it the 'deaths of the uncircumcised'... he's being treated as though he isn't even a son of Abraham, and the deaths of the uncircumcised is generally and specifically said about strangers: the uncircumcised.

The person is not the beast yet in Ezekiel 28:1-10. He is in the stage before becoming the beast. That stage is the revealed man of sin.

He is a Jew and it is a put down to say he will die the death of the uncircumcised.

The stages in order from beginning to end, look like this, gomerian.

1. little horn, leader of the EU
2. prince who shall come from the EU
3. Antichrist, King of Israel, Jews choose the wrong guy
4. betrays Israel - revealed man of sin, claims to be God.
5. killed by strangers (Ezekiel 28)
6. In hell
7. Kicked out the grave, brought back to life
8. Once back alive is possessed by the unclean spirit, and becomes the beast.
9. The ten leaders of the EU hand over the EU to him
10. Rules over the world, for 42 months, with the EU as his power base.
11. Jesus returns to end his time. Lake of fire.

 

[jgr]

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 21 But He spake of the temple of His body.

John 20:27 Then saith He to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold My hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into My side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Zechariah 13:6 And [one] shall say unto Him, What [are] these wounds in Thine hands? Then He shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of My friends.

Psalm 45 shows the garments of Jesus, and the garments of the bride. "... upon Thy right hand did stand the queen..." The wise virgins of Jesus' parable are the companions of the queen/bride... and this is why the mother of James and John was wrong, btw.

My OP differs from your subquote:

Paul's "temple" in all of his epistles refers to the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church.

 

[jgr]

These verses, not 2Thessalonians2:4. (all caps, not my doing. everybody gets treated nice. That's my intent).

BIBLE VERSES ABOUT BODY IS A TEMPLE

Right. Where translated "temple", the Greek word is the same: "naon/naos".

 

[jgr]

The Reformers... as in Calvinists? (shudder)

Calvin was only one of many.

These were just the main leaders.

John Wycliffe
John Hus
Jerome of Prague
Savonarola
Peter Waldo
Wessel Harmenz Gansfort
Theodore Beza
Martin Bucer
Heinrich Bullinger
Johannes Hus
John Calvin
Andreas von Carlstadt
Wolfgang Fabricius Capito
Martin Chemnitz
Thomas Cranmer
William Farel
Matthias Flacius
Caspar Hedio
Justus Jonas
John Knox
Jan Laski
Martin Luther
Philipp Melanchthon
Johannes Oecolampadius
Peter Martyr
Aonio Paleario
Laurentius Petri
Olaus Petri
Jirí Tranovský
William Tyndale
Joachim Vadian
Pierre Viret
Primož Trubar
Huldrych Zwingli
John of Leiden
Thomas Müntzer
Kaspar Schwenkfeld
Sebastian Franck
Menno Simons
Hans Denck
Conrad Grebel
Balthasar Hubmaier
Felix Manz

 

[Douggg]

When it says latter years and latter days, it means during the final 7 years prior to Christ's return to the earth.

Basically. Could be extended to mean the parable of the fig tree generation.

Given the nations involved and the scale of the attack, I would hardly consider this anything other than an eschatological event which starts approximately half-way into the 7 year tribulation, continuing on through the 2nd half of the tribulation, and culminating at the battle of Armageddon.

That is basically what Hal Lindsey wrote in his book late great planet earth. And I think Jack Van Impe taught the same.

It is not correct however.

There are two feasts in Ezekiel 39. One of those are upon Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:4. Then the chapter details the cleanup of the aftermath, which there is a 7 years period following.

Then there is a gap - between verse 16 and 17. There is no footnote in the text saying so. Ezekiel though is told to prophesy again. There is another feast in 17-20, the Armageddon feast. Which is 100% certain because Jesus is speaking in verse 21 based on what happens in Revelation 19.

Why the 7 years following Gog/Magog are the 7 years of Daniel 9:27, it takes some awareness of what the confirming of the covenant is, and what the Jews expect of the messiah, and what the little horn does to make them think he is the messiah.

The confirming of the covenant is in the bible. It is the Mt. Sinai covenant and is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. It is a perpetual law Moses made that the leaders of Israel on the 7 year shmita cycle would make a speech to the nation of Israel, that God gave them the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever.

The next King of Israel is to be the messiah, son of David. He is the one to make the speech.

Why will the Jews think that the little horn person coming from the EU following Gog/Magog is the messiah? Because what they are taught by the RAMBAM is that the messiah fights the battles of God in defending Israel.

The Jews will see the little horns' action in Daniel 8:9 and 8:25 of standing up, and staging his EU army in Greece pre-Gog/Magog as a deterrent (doesn't work) as fulfilling that requirement. So with messiah fever running high following Gog/Magog, they will embrace the guy thinking he is their messiah. And he will be anointed the King of Israel - by the false prophet. Something else they expect, Elijah the prophet.

 

[gomerian]

No, Ezekiel 28, is actually speaking about the person before becomes the beast, but after he is no longer the Antichrist.

Well that's clear as mud, isn't it. John defines what antichrist is, saying that they went out from us because they were never part of us, meaning that the antichrists are fake Christ-followers. They probably don't believe that Jesus is God, given John's full description.

As the Antichrist, he is the King of Israel. He is the King of Israel, thought to be messiah by the Jews for about 3 years 3 months into the 7 years.

The Jews and the world will be thinking they are in the messianic age of peace and safety. That's what the first part of 1Thessalonians5 is about, them saying peace and safety.
.

But according to Ezekiel 28, the prince and the king are both merchants... and they have created merchant kings in at least 10 nations. That's not a pretend Messiah... even by OT Prophet standards. And trust me when I tell you that Jesus never sold anything. Jesus says that they (Laodicea) will claim to have become rich and need nothing from Him. These are the ones at whose door Jesus stands and knocks. This is the entire reason for the book of Revelation. To dismiss it in favor of some jumped up false christ theology... rather than the truth of "against Christ" is to put yourself in harm's way.

 

[gomerian]

My OP differs from your subquote:

Agreed.

 

[gomerian]

Calvin was only one of many.

Which is why I'm simply a follower of Christ.

 

[Waterwerx]

The Jews will see the little horns' action in Daniel 8:9 and 8:25 of standing up, and staging his EU army in Greece pre-Gog/Magog as a deterrent (doesn't work) as fulfilling that requirement. So with messiah fever running high following Gog/Magog, they will embrace the guy thinking he is their messiah. And he will be anointed the King of Israel - by the false prophet. Something else they expect, Elijah the prophet.

Where is this mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39 or anywhere else in the Scripture? If anything, this appears to contradict the conditions that will exist when Gog makes his move against Israel. It also contradicts Ezekiel 38:16,
"It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes. "
which makes it pretty clear that there will be no mistaken identity or doubts of who it is that destroys those armies. Again, Ezekiel 38:23
" Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord. "

As for the theory that this false messiah tries to hijack God's miracle as his own doing in order to deceive the Jews into accepting him as their long-waited messiah, there is a problem. You're placing this event prior to the 7-year tribulation period. Unfortunately, this theory does not agree with Scripture because this man is revealed at the start of the tribulation period as a man of peaceful conquest, not as an all-powerful conqueror prior to it.

 

[Douggg]

It also contradicts Ezekiel 38:16,
"It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes. "
which makes it pretty clear that there will be no mistaken identity or doubts of who it is that destroys those armies.

Who do the muslims claim is God? Allah. And they have done all kinds of evil in Allah's name.

But when the muslims armies are destroyed and their cities likewise affected - then it will be clear that Allah is not the God of the Bible.

So there is no contradiction. The Gog/Magog event, will be God's judgement on Islam, for the violence it has done and the lies it has spread that they were doing it according to Allah, defaming God in doing so.

Following Gog/Magog, the world will know that Allah is not God, and not a real god at all. End of Islam.

 

[Douggg]

As for the theory that this false messiah tries to hijack God's miracle as his own doing in order to deceive the Jews into accepting him as their long-waited messiah, there is a problem. You're placing this event prior to the 7-year tribulation period. Unfortunately, this theory does not agree with Scripture because this man is revealed at the start of the tribulation period as a man of peaceful conquest, not as an all-powerful conqueror prior to it.

You are not understanding. The little horn person is not going to claim he did any defeat of Gog/Magog. His actions though to deter Gog/Magog from attacking, by staging his armies in Greece aforehand - will be interpreted afterward by the Jews as being an "intent" to fight the battles of God in defending Israel.

It is not a mistake to place Gog/Magog right before the 7 years begin.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Part of that seven years, the Jews will be in the mountains in escape from the beast, which they will burn the weapons for cooking and heat.

Unfortunately, this theory does not agree with Scripture because this man is revealed at the start of the tribulation period as a man of peaceful conquest, not as an all-powerful conqueror prior to it.

Following Gog/Magog, the nations that have attacked Israel in the middle east will be in disarray. The little horn, the prince who shall come, and his EU army will move into those nations in the middle east and grab control of all the oil, under the guise of keeping peace in the region.

He and his army don't fight anyone to do so.

 

[Douggg]

But according to Ezekiel 28, the prince and the king are both merchants... and they have created merchant kings in at least 10 nations.

Regarding Satan, it is just saying he deals in wickedness. That's the merchandise.

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Regarding the revealed man of sin, it is saying that he had gained great material wealth, using knowledge and practice in the occult.

Ezekiel 28:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

That's not a pretend Messiah... even by OT Prophet standards. And trust me when I tell you that Jesus never sold anything. Jesus says that they (Laodicea) will claim to have become rich and need nothing from Him. These are the ones at whose door Jesus stands and knocks. This is the entire reason for the book of Revelation. To dismiss it in favor of some jumped up false christ theology... rather than the truth of "against Christ" is to put yourself in harm's way.

The concept of the Antichrist is not someone impersonating that he is Jesus. Instead, the Antichrist will be opposed to the idea that Jesus is the true Christ, the true promised great King of Israel, descended from king David. The Antichrist will say he is instead.

 

[Douggg]

Well that's clear as mud, isn't it. John defines what antichrist is, saying that they went out from us because they were never part of us, meaning that the antichrists are fake Christ-followers. They probably don't believe that Jesus is God, given John's full description.

John was talking about them in his day who were turning away from believing in Jesus, denying Him and that he was God come in the flesh. John called them antichrists, likening them to the coming Antichrist because they were exhibiting the same traits.

The Antichrist is Anti - Christ, the King of Israel. He has to be anointed the King of Israel to become the Antichrist. Jesus is the rightful King of Israel.

As a parallel example... To be the president of the United States, a person has to fill that office. Then, if he does something really bad, not in keeping with the constitution - he gets impeached and is no longer the president.

In similitude, when the Antichrist, (not sent by God), King of Israel person goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God, that's something really bad, not in keeping with the Mt. Sinai covenant - he gets impeached by the Jews and is no longer the King of Israel. But instead he is the revealed man of sin. Because he does that great sin.

And it is as the revealed man of sin, that God has him killed in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

When God has him killed, in Revelation 13, he is this guy in blue...

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Then, in Isaiah 14:19-20, when God brings him back to life, kicked out of the grave, he is this guy in red....

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

becoming this guy in brown....

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

 

[gomerian]

Regarding Satan, it is just saying he deals in wickedness. That's the merchandise.

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Regarding the revealed man of sin, it is saying that he had gained great material wealth, using knowledge and practice in the occult.

Ezekiel 28:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:



The concept of the Antichrist is not someone impersonating that he is Jesus. Instead, the Antichrist will be opposed to the idea that Jesus is the true Christ, the true promised great King of Israel, descended from king David. The Antichrist will say he is instead.

The revealed man of sin could easily pass for a second Solomon, coudln't he. And wasn't Satan, by tempting the heirs of Eden into coveting godhood, himself coveting the land of Eden? replacing Earth with his place among the stones of fire at the altar of heaven, which title-deed the prince of this world still owns until his sentencing is carried out.

My idea of the against-Christ is the head and body of a people who teach against what Jesus taught. The worthless shepherd who runs when danger happens, and who devours the bank accounts of his taught ones. That could be any tithing establishment, or anyone who passes the hat for the poor as a Judas. The head of the against-Christ has been taught by the king of the merchants to create covetousness and envy in the buying and selling of things... and the bodies and souls of men. These last aren't just slaves or serfs, or even wage slaves whose production is tied to the taxation which enslaves them, but they're 'sold' on the whole merchandising mechanism, and have lost their souls in the process.

I used to think that mainstream media was the beast, until I caught a glimpse of the strings which controlled them. There's a huge reason why communism and its industrialization of every land and people it liberates by war, are the teeth of the iron beast. And money sent to them in aid comes from the taxation of the people they enslave... which allows them to lobby for more special interests, which never align with the interests of the wage slaves. All of these governments are traitors, and you don't have to look very far to see the last 3 of the 10 horns. When we the people have been milked dry, the little horn will uproot us as a nation. Rome was nothing but a tax man to the Pharisees of Jerusalem... they never colonized it, changed its language, or replaced its people, until the Pharisees in charge of the rioting caused the fall of the temple... and they burned the records to hide their ancestry... which was most likely Persian.