• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Featured The ten horns of Daniel...

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Hiscosmicgoldfish3, May 30, 2018.

  1. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

    274
    +90
    United Kingdom
    Anglican
    Single
    Daniel and the ten horns/little horn..

    I don't agree with the SDA's interpretation of the ten horns being ten kingdoms, as the horns are said to be kings, in Daniel. The SDA claim that the 10 horns were the ten barbarian kingdoms, which arose out of the Western Roman Empire, and the three horns plucked up were the - Heruli, Vandals and Ostogoths - were eliminated by the year 538 AD. (this power was to arise between 476 AD and 538 AD (allegedly papal Rome).

    There are other problems with this interpretation, besides the fact that a horn is a king and not a kingdom: what about the Eastern Roman Empire? - doesn't feature. The little horn that rises up out of the ten horns, is said by the SDA to be the papacy and popes, similar to what Luther believed.
    They say that the papacy arose in 538 AD - is that true? - I doubt it - it seems to be a bit of a shoe-horn. I think the Roman Church was in place about 300 AD, and before that proto-Orthodox or Byzantine Greek Church?
    And there is another problem with the theory: the fourth beast of Daniel's vision cannot be Rome - as Rome did not crush the Parthian/Persian Empire.
    Some people claim that Islam fulfills the prophesy - but they make no mention of the three horns and try to claim that there are or will be ten Islamic countries in the end-days - so where are the three horns plucked out?
    I think the most likely solution, is the preterist interpretation. The ten kings are the ten predecessors of Antiochus IV:
    1. Seleucus I Nicator
    2. Antiochus I Soter
    3. Antiochus II Theos
    4. Seleucus II Callinicus
    5. Seleucus III Ceraunus (or Soter)
    6. Antiochus III the Great
    7. Seleucus IV Philopator
    8. [*Heliodorus] – killed Seleucus IV and took the throne; killed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes
    9. [*Demetrius I] – left in prison in Rome by Antiochus IV Epiphanes
    10. [*Antiochus] – infant, co-ruled with Antiochus IV Epiphanes until killed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes
    11. Little horn = Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
    Also - 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    Where do the SDA derive the many years of the papacy from 3 1/2 years? - obviously that was the time that Antiochus persecuted the Jews in 167 BC.
    None of this is about an end-times antichrist or final tribulation of 3 1/2 years.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. StarTemple

    StarTemple Newbie

    135
    +16
    Non-Denom
    It has a future finality for the "8th horn" to result from 3 that fall of the 10 for the "small horn" will in the same principle be the "8th King" of Revelation as world government. Pretty easy to see now. The 3 big ones to fall first as indebted done national systems as in Daniel 11:42-43 "King South" nation-state systems, are US/UK, Russia and China, the ME is already as good as taken. But, as per Revelation 13:3 it is not "doomsday" coming up, it is the global-sword-stroke which instead Isaiah 41:1 "heals" "regains power" to be brought up into full "King North" [8th King] global government in the future after a severe global downturn of some form in the future.

    Christ cannot arrive until AFTER they cross the line with that global sovereign system and claim. We have a few years left for this to run the course.
     
  3. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

    +569
    Christian
    I don't think we're going to find a newspaper article on it, but yes, the prophetic time period lasted from 538 to 1798. 1260 years. Reverse engineer it. In 1798 they arrested the Pope. They closed down Vatican city. Pope Pius died in a French jail cell. The composite beast received what looked to everyone like a mortal head wound. That was huge. Imagine that happening today. It would seem impossible. Because it is impossible for that to happen now. We are on his turf now, in the time of his authority. That's a spooky thought.

    But Mussolini opened the Vatican up again in 1929 during the Lateran Treaty. In 2015 the sixth head "appears to have been healed" now from it's deadly wound. This is a biggie one to get right along with Daniel 9 and Revelation 12. It's crucial, in my opinion, to identify the Foxe Book days in Scripture.

    What I think ultimately makes the fourth beast so different and exceedingly terrifying from the first 3 was not it's great iron teeth but it's strange alliance of church and state, who can make war with it?

    So I don't think that it's really just Rome, it was Rome, but it wasn't Rome really. It was how that church IN Rome had civil authority over the people. So it's not Rome or a revival of the holy Roman empire that we need to be concerned about anymore. It was how this unholy alliance between church and state can morph into a monster beast that will have absolute and corrupt power over so many people.

    In the 1500's you had a guy like Martin Luther that wasn't always safe and on some occasions running from the stake in his own home country. But one of the most bizarre stories I found was the exhumation of John Wycliffe who they didn't manage to catch alive, so they dug him up and burned his dead body. That's what you call true hatred and I'm sure that this dragon hates our guts. But this monster beast will not have been completely healed until these things begin again.

    The the Vatican has ambassadors from 183 sovereign nations.

    "The Holy See currently has diplomatic relations with 183 sovereign states[12] (including the partially internationally recognized Republic of China) and in addition with the sovereign entity Order of Malta and the supranational union European Union.[13]

    "The Holy See also has established official diplomatic relations with the State of Palestine.[12] By agreement with the government of Vietnam, it has a non-resident papal representative to that country.[14] It has official formal contacts, without establishing diplomatic relations, with: Afghanistan, Brunei, Somalia, Oman, and Saudi Arabia.[15]

    Foreign relations of the Holy See - Wikipedia

    When the tribulation gets going, who is going to make war with that?
     
  4. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

    +312
    Non-Denom
    Single
    The prophecy is of the end times and the division of the middle east.

    The ten horns are ten,Muslims countries with their kings.
    The little horn is state of Israel.
    It started small but grew in strength.
    It is diverse from the other ten who obtained statehood before it .
    It is the goverment of Israel which shall cause the saints in,Israel to be persecuted for the last three and a half years before Christ comes.Jesus spoke of this persecution in the gospel.

    Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

    Jesus preached the gospel three and a half years .So shall these.
     
  5. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

    274
    +90
    United Kingdom
    Anglican
    Single
    is a day a year? I agree with the SDA interpretation of the 70 weeks - but I don't buy this one - they also state the conversion of Clovis of the Franks in 508 AD? What makes 538 AD so special, and not 508 AD? - as it works out if you make it 538 AD - ending in 1798, but that is like back peddling to see what works out. Do you really think the Roman Church began in 538? I don't.
    I had accepted the theory as it seemed to make sense, but - the problems that I outlined make it seem very unlikely, and the preterist interpretation seems best.

    I think the mis-interpretation of the 70 weeks, has led to an expectation of a seven year tribulation, and a rapture, before that - dispensationalism. When it is fairly obvious that the one who confirms a covenant with many was Jesus, in the last seven years of the 70 weeks - cut off mid-way after 3 1/2 years after his baptism.
    The stoning of Steven would be the closure of the final 70th week - again, a preterist interpretation of Daniel. Why do the SDA take a preterist interpretation of the 70 weeks, and not so with chapter 7 of Daniel? - where it is historicist.
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,736
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Mr. goldfish, whenever you see time, times, half times, that is in the second half of the 7 years of the forthcoming 70th week of Daniel 9.

    If you see 1260 days, that is the first half of the 7 years.

    If you see 42 months, that is in the second half of the 7 years.
    __________________________________________________________

    With what you know about Revelation 13:7, doesn't it make sense that the little horn person has been become the beast at that time?

    The time, times, half times and the 42 months - whenever you see those, they are in the second half of the 7 years.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  7. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

    274
    +90
    United Kingdom
    Anglican
    Single
    Who are the three horns plucked up by the roots?
    1. [*Heliodorus] – killed Seleucus IV and took the throne; killed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes
    2. [*Demetrius I] – left in prison in Rome by Antiochus IV Epiphanes
    3. [*Antiochus] – infant, co-ruled with Antiochus IV Epiphanes until killed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes
    No Islamic scenario has any credibility to me. No papal Rome scenario works out.
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,736
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    The little horn waxes strong to the south and east.

    Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

    South and east to the middle east and toward the pleasant land. Israel is not heading toward Israel with a strong army.
     
  9. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

    +312
    Non-Denom
    Single
    You would not be able to except the answer.So why ask.
     
  10. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

    +312
    Non-Denom
    Single

    The people who founded the state of Israel came from Europe in ships from the north west into the pleasant land.
    They arrived in ships out of the meditetainian,sea.

    There it had waxed strong.Its appearance is stouter than its fellows.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,736
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Mr. goldfish, no 50% interpretation can work. What is 50% interpretation? It is not taking in consideration that the person has two tracks.

    On track is to be the king of the fourth empire in the end times. The little horn, the beast - these are being King of the fourth empire in the end times, the Roman Empire, the EU.

    Other track is to be the King of Israel, perceived messiah, the Antichrist.

    The Jews shouted, we have no King but Caesar.

    The person is descended from the Julio Claudians. And his mother is a Jew, he is a Jew.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,736
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Oh yeah, they arrived with their aircraft carriers, submarines, tanks, artillery battalions, rocket brigades, totally armed to the teeth....

    really shilohsfoal?

    Of what I saw on the films was a beaten down group of woman, children, and civilian men.
     
  13. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

    +312
    Non-Denom
    Single

    Well.Those broken down group of women,children and civilian men defeated armies from about ten countries in their first war.
    Today they have a stockpile of nuclear warheads able to destroy any country in the world.
     
  14. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    +2,550
    Non-Denom
    Single
    If they had the book of Maccabees in their Bible, they would not be using their current interpretation of Daniel.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,736
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Could be that God was on their side.
     
  16. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

    +312
    Non-Denom
    Single
  17. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

    274
    +90
    United Kingdom
    Anglican
    Single
    The preterist is also the Catholic interpretation, obviously they don't want to be singled out as the little horn, whereas the SDA have no such qualms in their identification. But the little horn is not the papacy - for the reasons that I have outlined in my OP.
    The SDA seem to be set in their biblical interpretations, and take heed of what Ellen White said - that's their business I suppose. But their interpretation of the 70 weeks works out, and they seem to be the only church who teach that preterist interpretation.
    So someone back in the 18-somethings says to interpret it this way - and no one can argue against it for the rest of time? No personal research on the scriptures permitted?

    Why don't I accept the futurist interpretation of the 70 weeks? - because you need to insert a very long gap betwixt the 69th week and the 70th week - and I can't see any justification for doing that, as it says that it is about Daniel's people - the Hebrews, and the Messiah especially - so it's fulfilled in Jesus, and is not to do with a final 70th week antichrist.
    And the futurist theology is derived from people like John Nelson Darby and Scofield - who I don't agree with - that was their opinion.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,736
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Well, they were fulfilling prophecy Ezekiel 37. They came back from the nations and Israel was reborn back into one nation, no longer two nations.

    City of the seven hills is Rome. Jerusalem is known as Zion. It is in your bible. 2Samuel5:7.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,736
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    The messiah? In case you have not noticed Jesus has not returned yet.

    The 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem. That's what is in the text. The 70 weeks are not over until Matthew 23:39 is fulfilled. Which will be at Jesus's Return.

    Matthew 23:
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    Brother goldfish, haven't you read in Matthew 24, learn a parable of a fig tree?
     
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,220
    Non-Denom
    The ten kings had ten kingdoms: Franks, Huns, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Heruli, Lombards, Anglo-Saxons, Suevi, Vandals, and Burgundians.

    It did for a time.
    Romans in Persia - Wikipedia

    I concur regarding an identifiable papacy in the 4th century.
    Everlasting Gospel
    contains some historical testimony and rationale regarding the 538 date.

    It derives from the day-year associations found in Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6. 3 1/2 years is 1260 days, or 1260 years after the association is applied.

    Indisputably true.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
Loading...