Like I say Lamad...take your preconceived and contrived rapture glasses off.
What you have there is "eschatalogical fantasy" by way of "Left Behind" fiction. All you have to do is let scripture say what it says...which is not a pretribuational rapture...and you'll find that out.
All seals are opened, no trumpets are blowing, and no vials are being poured out. Just a huge misunderstanding of OT as well as NT.
You take those passage line upon line without adding your interpretation, they don't teach a pre-trib rapture AT ALL!!!How can something clearly written in the bible be heretical? TRUTH is, the PRETRIB rapture is SCRIPTURAL. We had three witnesses to it. Did you quit reading in 1 thes. 4? Study chapter 5. The SUDDENLY is the pretrib rapture. The sudden destruction is a massive worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. The rapture, as Paul shows us, is the TRIGGER for the DAy, or if you please, the trigger for the SIGNS of the Day: first the massive earthquake (See Isaiah 2) then the signs in the sun and moon - all shows at the 6th seal.
Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven, in Rev. 7, BEFORE he has even started the 70th week.
LAMAD
You take those passage line upon line without adding your interpretation, they don't teach a pre-trib rapture AT ALL!!!
Let 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 stand on what it says...and you can't get there:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
You have to add your teaching to that to get anything but the last day from that passage Lamad.
So as you like to call other views "myths"...the true myth is what you're trying to MAKE scripture say.
I just gave the scriptures that prove that out Lord is coming back more than just one more time in the new thread titled "A Scriptural Precedent 1." As I gave them there, there is no point in repeating them here.JBL777 wrote,
Originally Posted by BiblewriterHeretical doctrine is anything that denies explicitly stated scripture.I Thessalonians 4 & 5 are the foundation of POST TRIBULATION DOCTRINE.
It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. For all conclusions about when it takes place are based on interpretation.
The fact of the rapture, although not its timing, is explicitly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
So it is indeed heretical doctrine to deny that this will happen.
There is not one single Pre-Trib scripture in the Bible.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Paul teaches us here THE CHURCH WILL COME WITH JESUS.
Jesus is not coming for the Church, but WITH THE CHURCH.
How could you be SO FAR from the truth, and be attempting to teach on a public forum?
First, He will be coming with the DEAD in Christ. There will be many ALIVE in Christ on earth.
I do agree, it is heretical to say there will be no rapture. Those that say this need to tear 1 Thes. 4 & 5 out of their bibles - or quit teaching false doctrine.
You are right, there is no "timing" in chapter 4, but in chapter 5 Paul GIVES US the timing: the rapture will come JUST BEFORE the Signs for the Day of the Lord. Indeed, will be the TRIGGER for those signs. Paul's SUDDEN DESTRUCTION is caused by the rapture; the dead in Christ rising will cause a worldwide earthquake. Those alive and caught up will be caught up SO QUICKLY after the dead in Christ, the earthquake will not get them either. But those who are left behind will face this worldwide earthquake. It will be MASSIVE devastation, and it will be the first SIGN for the start of the DAy of the Lord. (Isa. chapter 2)
So you are WRONG. ! thes. 4 & 5 ARE pretrib. And John chapter 7, where John SAW the Bride of Christ in heaven, is PRETRIB, for John does not even begin the 70th week until the 7th seal. So we have TWO witnesses that Jesus will come PRETRIB for His bride, then come WITH His bride over 7 years later.
The Day of the Lord starts right where John TELLS US it starts, at the end of the 6th seal.
LAMAD
That's the kind of answer I expected..."contrived". The passage just doesn't teach that. It's plain.YOU can't pull 1 thes 4 15-18 out of its CONTEXT! Paul was not finished with the rapture in chapter 4. He tells us the TIMING of the rapture in chapter 5. People can make the bible say ANYTHING if they pull verses out of their context. If you read this IN CONTEXT, the rapture is the trigger for the SIGNS of the Day of the Lord - exactly as John shows us in Rev. 6 & 7.
Listen, GOD is pretrib, so any attempt to teach ANYTHING but a pretrib rapture will be going against the truth of Scripture. You will find it impossible to change God's mind: He is coming PRETRIB. What did Paul write? God did not make an appointment for us, with HIS WRATH.
In spite of all you think, the ENTIRE 70th week is HIS WRATH, which starts with the first trumpet judgment, which will come right after the 7th seal opens the 70th week. This is the truth of scripture.
If you wish to make your OWN appointment, God will honor that. But why? God has made a way of escape. Why not BELIEVE Luke 21:36 and obey it?
LAMAD
How can something clearly written in the bible be heretical? TRUTH is, the PRETRIB rapture is SCRIPTURAL. We had three witnesses to it. Did you quit reading in 1 thes. 4? Study chapter 5. The SUDDENLY is the pretrib rapture. The sudden destruction is a massive worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. The rapture, as Paul shows us, is the TRIGGER for the DAy, or if you please, the trigger for the SIGNS of the Day: first the massive earthquake (See Isaiah 2) then the signs in the sun and moon - all shows at the 6th seal.
Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven, in Rev. 7, BEFORE he has even started the 70th week.
LAMAD
This is commonly reported, but it is incorrect.That's simply not true. Scripture is actually all about a post-tribulation rapture. Pre-trib theology hinges on confusing what scripture tells. Matthew 24:29-31 for example tells something quite contrary to a pre-Rapture, and ultimately demands that Thess and such are speaking of something else.
Pre-tribulation is due to error, and from what I assume, isn't even orthodox belief. It didn't come to be a concept until the 19th century.
You will find it's really popular mostly in America. American missionaries carry it abroad and teach it.That's simply not true. Scripture is actually all about a post-tribulation rapture. Pre-trib theology hinges on confusing what scripture tells. Matthew 24:29-31 for example tells something quite contrary to a pre-Rapture, and ultimately demands that Thess and such are speaking of something else.
Pre-tribulation is due to error, and from what I assume, isn't even orthodox belief. It didn't come to be a concept until the 19th century.
It is heretical because after the Rapture God then deals with Israel when God already made a New Covenant with Jews.
Furthermore, the Temple, Levitical priesthood, and animal sacrifices served as shadows and types of Christ.
They're purposes ended with Christ. During Biblical Israel three types of people were anointed with the Holy Spirit, kings, priests, and prophets. These offices now belong to Christ. Jesus is the Kings of Kings, our perfect High Priest, and the greatest prophet of all.
Rapture believers believe Jews have two simultaneous covenants and Gentiles have one. That the Mosaic Covenant and New Covenant are both valid today for the Jews.
Oh yes this is heretical alright!
Or do you deem Jesus unnecessary for the Jews?
Dang.DREAM ON! You have been warned. The pretrib rapture will catch you unaware and you will be LEFT BEHIND.
Sorry, I don't think so.This is your LORD.
Ya know,I reckon our Lord knows that pretty much all of His Church confesses that He will "come again to judge the quick and the dead", and that no one could stop Him and durn near no one wants to. That's the "there's my Church and then there's heatherns" notion held dear by some denominations, and I 'spect the Lord knows that too.I AM coming and NO one can stop ME.
None in these parts, I'll wager.Some believe I will not ever come
The smart ones say that He'll come when it is His good pleasure to do so.Some believe I am not coming for a long time.
Reckon that He Who spoke the universe into being needs an army? If so, why?Some think of ME as a far off GOD. I am none of these. I am coming with MY mighty angel army.
I have no doubt of it. You, however, haven't a clue when He will return.ASk yourself, do you think the King of Kings knows if His coming for His bride will be pretrib or post trib? HE KNOWS!
Well there ya are, then! No need of looking through a lot of Scripture, when we have it straight from the source.Listen, GOD is pretrib, so any attempt to teach ANYTHING but a pretrib rapture will be going against the truth of Scripture.
For those that believe in a rapture,can you please tell me it's purpose?
Now you may say because those in Christ are not appointed to His wrath,I say we will be here,and at the same time,protected from His wrath....ie,children of Egypt,were they not protected?
Also what makes you all so special that you get to escape the trib?Do you even know what the trib is,and it's purpose?How many in Christ have died horrible deaths throughout the ages?
Also Christ said for the ELECT sake those days would be shortened,now how can the elect still be here,and you all get raptured?Makes no sense....
So again I ask,what's the purpose?
So one purpose is that Jesus Promised the Church in (Rev 3:10) to Keep them from the period of trial (the Great Tribulation) that is about to fall upon the whole earth. So if you believe that you will be "protected" you are deceived because every earth dweller will suffer this wrath. It does not say that the church will be merely be kept safe but be kept from the hour of trial. To be kept form requires removal from the earth because this trial will effect " the whole earth" and all who dwell on it at that time. If you believe that the church will be kept safe, and many do, then something goes terribly wrong. Because all throughout the Book of Revelation saints are being killed on a massive scale.
The fact is that all rapture views are Pre Wrath views. Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib,Post-trib all believe that the rapture will occur before God Pours out His wrath.The dissagreement in these views is as to when, in the seventieth week of Daniel, is the wrath of God poured out; ie, when does the wrath of God begin.
To Deny this is to deny the one who said it.
.The dissagreement in these views is as to when, in the seventieth week of Daniel, is the wrath of God poured out; ie, when does the wrath of God begin.
To Deny this is to deny the one who said it.