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The Rapture - heretical teaching

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by random person, Jan 7, 2014.

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  1. L0U

    L0U Regular Member

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    Did I say anything about full preterism?
     
  2. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    DREAM ON! You have been warned. The pretrib rapture will catch you unaware and you will be LEFT BEHIND.

    What does the Alpha and Omega say about it?
    Dear Children
    This is your LORD. I AM coming and NO one can stop ME. Some believe I will not ever come. Some believe I am not coming for a long time. Some think of ME as a far off GOD. I am none of these. I am coming with MY mighty angel army. I am going to split the skies open with the beauty of MY Majesty and MY Presence. Those watching will see ME first. They will see their KING make a grand entrance.
    The stage will be set for the removal of MY bride to lift her up into the skies out of harm’s way. She will follow ME out to safety. I will pull her free. There will be mass hysteria. People will run everywhere wondering what has happened because of the devastation and missing people. There will be many explanations for what has taken place. Most will be inspired by evil, who want to down play MY Coming.
    The world will not be the same. It will be the start of a new era—the onset of the antichrist kingdom in full force: man’s way of coping with the aftermath of the removal of MY bride from the earth. Once MY bride is taken free and MY SPIRIT is taken out of the way, the enemy’s kingdom will come into power in full force and no one will be safe from the domination of evil man run by evil spirits from the kingdom of darkness.
    Horror will reign on earth as I allow MY wrath to pour over the earth. Tribulation will reign supreme—Great Tribulation. MY children who are left behind will face their darkest hour. Dark decisions will be theirs to make choosing between the antichrist system which leads ultimately to eternal doom or choosing against the commanding system leading to their martyrdom. Many will be tortured and suffer greatly in order to escape the kingdom of darkness that will rule the earth and all who remain behind.
    You can avoid this end—turn to ME now as your only hope. Give ME your all in all—full surrender of your will into MY Hands. I will protect you, guide you, keep you in MY Will if you so desire to be MINE. Just surrender, repent, and submit yourself over to ME. All will be well between us. I will protect you from the coming evil: a system that is even now in the works.
    Please turn your life over to ME. I am pleading with you children. Walk with your GOD into safekeeping.
    I AM GOD…I AM ALL KNOWING…ALL SEEING…ALPHA & OMEGA…
    BEGINNING and the END
    ASk yourself, do you think the King of Kings knows if His coming for His bride will be pretrib or post trib? HE KNOWS!

    YOU will be one in "mass hysteria." And it will be YOUR OWN choice.

    By the way, we are now WAITING on the 6th seal.

    LAMAD
     
  3. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    You take those passage line upon line without adding your interpretation, they don't teach a pre-trib rapture AT ALL!!!

    Let 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 stand on what it says...and you can't get there:

    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


    You have to add your teaching to that to get anything but the last day from that passage Lamad.

    So as you like to call other views "myths"...the true myth is what you're trying to MAKE scripture say.
     
  4. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    YOU can't pull 1 thes 4 15-18 out of its CONTEXT! Paul was not finished with the rapture in chapter 4. He tells us the TIMING of the rapture in chapter 5. People can make the bible say ANYTHING if they pull verses out of their context. If you read this IN CONTEXT, the rapture is the trigger for the SIGNS of the Day of the Lord - exactly as John shows us in Rev. 6 & 7.

    Listen, GOD is pretrib, so any attempt to teach ANYTHING but a pretrib rapture will be going against the truth of Scripture. You will find it impossible to change God's mind: He is coming PRETRIB. What did Paul write? God did not make an appointment for us, with HIS WRATH.

    In spite of all you think, the ENTIRE 70th week is HIS WRATH, which starts with the first trumpet judgment, which will come right after the 7th seal opens the 70th week. This is the truth of scripture.

    If you wish to make your OWN appointment, God will honor that. But why? God has made a way of escape. Why not BELIEVE Luke 21:36 and obey it?

    LAMAD
     
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I just gave the scriptures that prove that out Lord is coming back more than just one more time in the new thread titled "A Scriptural Precedent 1." As I gave them there, there is no point in repeating them here.
     
  6. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    That's the kind of answer I expected..."contrived". The passage just doesn't teach that. It's plain.

    You MUST contrive it to get that...and you just did...:thumbsup:
     
  7. SwordFall

    SwordFall Junior Member

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    That's simply not true. Scripture is actually all about a post-tribulation rapture. Pre-trib theology hinges on confusing what scripture tells. Matthew 24:29-31 for example tells something quite contrary to a pre-Rapture, and ultimately demands that Thess and such are speaking of something else.

    Pre-tribulation is due to error, and from what I assume, isn't even orthodox belief. It didn't come to be a concept until the 19th century.
     
  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is commonly reported, but it is incorrect.

    The very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length that has survived to our day is the last twelve chapters of “Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus. (There were older such commentaries, but all of them were either short or have been lost.) This one is thought to have been published between 186 and 188 A.D., and says:

    “Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1)

    Again, there is an ancient sermon titled “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.” The age and author of this sermon is unknown, but it is known to have been in Church libraries before the year 800. Most of the surviving copies of this sermon say it was written by Ephraem, but one says its author was Isadore of Sevelle. Based on events the sermon said were impending, various scholars have estimated its date from as early as 373 to as late as 627. Paul J. Alexander gave what seems to be the most satisfactory analysis of its date, concluding that the original had to have been written in or near the fourth century, but that copiers had added other material sometime around the seventh century. (“Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition,” by Paul J. Alexander, University of California Press, 1985, pg. 147.)

    s scholars do not believe the unknown author could have been the famous Ephraem the Syrian, (who is also known a Ephraem of Nisbis) they call this unknown author Pseudo-Ephraem. This sermon was divided into ten sections, and said in section 2:

    “Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.” Author unknown, but called pseudo-Ephraem, section 2. From “The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition,” by Paul J. Alexander, ed. By Dorthy deF. Abrahamse, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985, 2.10. Cited there from “Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters,” C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Christiania, 1890, 208-20.)

    It would be difficult to make a more clear statement of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture.

    Thus we have two distinct statements of a rapture before the great tribulation, with the earliest one thought to have been published a little over 1600 years before Darby was born, and the other known to have been been in church libraries a thousand years before he was born!

    So this doctrine unquestionably did not originate with Darby, although in modern times he was indeed the one that made it a household word.
     
  9. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    You will find it's really popular mostly in America. American missionaries carry it abroad and teach it.

    It began it's popularity with John Darby and was taught by C I Scofield.

    To think Christians would escape the persecution we see the church going through in Acts 8 is truly alarming. Their faith has been tested yet ours won't be? :confused:
     
  10. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    You really should study ideas a little more closely before you attack them with such vigor.

    The doctrine of the rapture and the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture are two entirely different doctrines.

    There are four different views on when the rapture takes place. Some say pre-tribulation. That is the doctrine you are attacking, even though you do not even know its name.

    Other people believe in a post tribulation rapture. That is the doctrine that the rapture will come at the end of the coming period of tribulation.

    Most people believe in either a pre-tribulation rapture or a post tribulation rapture. But some think it will be in the middle of the tribulation. This view is called the mid-tribulation rapture. Others think t will be shortly before the end of the tribulation. This is called the pre-wrath rapture.

    All of these views are based on interpretations of scripture, for the Bible simply does not say when it happens, only that it does.

    But in the heat of your passion, you have demonstrated that you do not understand all this.

    yu seem to be insisting that Christians will not be taken to heaven at all, but will live on on the earth after the Lord comes. This is directly contrary to the Bible.

    Again the doctrine of the pre-tribulatin rapture and the doctrine of a future restoration of Israel are also two distinctly different doctrines. It is true that most people who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture also believe in a future restoration of Israel. But that is not necessarily always the case.

    But your claim that Israel will not be restored is directly contradictory to a great many passages of scripture. Ezekiel 36:6-10, for instance clearly teaches that absolutely all of "the house of Israel" will again inhabit "the land of Israel, with its mountains, hills, rivers, and valleys." And Ezekiel 47 goes so far as to precisely define the furure borderd of that land.

    Isaiah 10:25-32 gives the daily progress of an attacker it calls the "Assyrian" as he advances on Jerusalem as that time approaches, And Daniel 11:40-45 give more details about his attack. Isaiah 66 tells when Israel will be brought back to their land, and says it will be after the Lord returns. Ezekiel 20 describes hoe He will judge the people of Israel as they return, and Zechariah 12 and 13 describe their repentance and conversion at that time.

    So there is no thought of a doctrine thet they do not need Jesus. The scriptures indeed say that they will be restored to their land, bit they also very clearly teach that this will ony be after they repent and believe in Jesus.

    When you deny this, you are denying plain scripture.
     
  11. n2thelight

    n2thelight Guest

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    For those that believe in a rapture,can you please tell me it's purpose?

    Now you may say because those in Christ are not appointed to His wrath,I say we will be here,and at the same time,protected from His wrath....ie,children of Egypt,were they not protected?

    Also what makes you all so special that you get to escape the trib?Do you even know what the trib is,and it's purpose?How many in Christ have died horrible deaths throughout the ages?

    Also Christ said for the ELECT sake those days would be shortened,now how can the elect still be here,and you all get raptured?Makes no sense....

    So again I ask,what's the purpose?
     
  12. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Just clarification LOU...nothing more. :thumbsup:
     
  13. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    Dang.

    Then again, that warning might be a little more credible if there was more actual Scripture and less pop theology arglebargle behind it. ;)

    Sorry, I don't think so.

    Ya know,I reckon our Lord knows that pretty much all of His Church confesses that He will "come again to judge the quick and the dead", and that no one could stop Him and durn near no one wants to. That's the "there's my Church and then there's heatherns" notion held dear by some denominations, and I 'spect the Lord knows that too.

    None in these parts, I'll wager.

    The smart ones say that He'll come when it is His good pleasure to do so. ;)

    Reckon that He Who spoke the universe into being needs an army? If so, why?

    I have no doubt of it. You, however, haven't a clue when He will return. ;)
     
  14. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    Well there ya are, then! No need of looking through a lot of Scripture, when we have it straight from the source. :p
     
  15. Kings servant

    Kings servant GOD'S WARRIOR.

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    You folks are missing the big picture here. The whole point of prophetic Bible scriptures regarding the Rapture and the end times is to warn us that it is coming but it gives no clear indication exactly when it will happen, only that it will happen and the signs to look for. Jesus Himself says, But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. So its pointless to argue out when, how and how long because we don't know nor or we meant to know.



    Our job as Christians is to lead others to Christ and to be ready ourselves for the day He returns. If we do this then it won't matter when He comes because our house will be in order, our bags will be packed and our castle in Heaven will be fully furnished and waiting on us!
     
  16. cybersurfer

    cybersurfer Junior Member

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    So one purpose is that Jesus Promised the Church in (Rev 3:10) to Keep them from the period of trial (the Great Tribulation) that is about to fall upon the whole earth. So if you believe that you will be "protected" you are deceived because every earth dweller will suffer this wrath. It does not say that the church will be merely be kept safe but be kept from the hour of trial. To be kept form requires removal from the earth because this trial will effect " the whole earth" and all who dwell on it at that time. If you believe that the church will be kept safe, and many do, then something goes terribly wrong. Because all throughout the Book of Revelation saints are being killed on a massive scale.
    The fact is that all rapture views are Pre Wrath views. Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib,Post-trib all believe that the rapture will occur before God Pours out His wrath.The dissagreement in these views is as to when, in the seventieth week of Daniel, is the wrath of God poured out; ie, when does the wrath of God begin.
    To Deny this is to deny the one who said it.
     
  17. SwordFall

    SwordFall Junior Member

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    Matthew 24:29-31
    And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved:
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.
    And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them.



    Post Tribulation Rapture. Pretty straightforward.






     
  18. n2thelight

    n2thelight Guest

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    Christ can and will keep us from trail,without removing us....I could be standing in the middle of a million people who deserve His wrath,yet not one hair on my head would be touched....

    Saints have been killed on a massive scale throughout history,so what's the difference?

    I don't believe in a rapture period...Pre,Mid or Post....Christ comes here,where we shall gather to Him,we go nowhere.....The only way to get to heaven before He comes here,is to die,those who have died are the one's He brings back with Him............
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2014
  19. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Christ compares his coming as happening in every day times... Like Lot and Noah. Where society is carrying on as normal, and then the saints are removed before the destruction...


    6 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. - Matt 24

    20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

    23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

    25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    32 Remember Lot's wife.

    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. -Luke 25
     
  20. Philpy1976

    Philpy1976 Junior Member

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    I am still learning about all this stuff, but from my understanding at no time in bible prophecy has a length of time been chopped into two separate things.
    It isn't 69 + 1 for later, it is 70.

    The 70th week has been and gone, the daily sacrifices were stopped (made obsolete by the blood of Christ) the week was cut in half (3.5 days = 3.5 year ministry)

    Why would Gabriel be giving Daniel a Messianic prophecy and then suddenly jump to talking about AntiChrist without making it clear he has changed subject?
    And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease he = Jesus Christ, whose blood was poured out for the sins of the world 3.5 years into his ministry (halfway through the 'week')

    Where in scripture does this idea of a seven year trib come from?
    If it is only from Daniel 9 then I'm not sure I believe it is even going to be 7 years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
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