The Rapture - heretical teaching

[spiritandtruth2]

The 144,000 is a figurative number that represents the fullness of all believers. John hears each of the 12 tribes counted at 12,000 for a total of 144,000. After John hears that, he looks to see what that number represents, which is a great multitude which no one can number. They are in white robes with palm branches praising God. That is all of the redeemed of God.

Once again this "thousand year reign" is figurative of the entire time Christ has been reigning since His resurrection. Jesus received the reign in Matthew 28:18 and announced it to the apostles:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Receiving "all authority" from the Father, the reign of Christ is NOW. Christ has been in control of all things since He was raised.

Peter has given us this in saying in 2 Peter 3:8
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Jesus will return when the salvation of all to be redeemed is accomplished. The reign of Christ will end with His judgment of the world and He will return the reign to the Father.

This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

I think you need to review your understanding with all due respect he had to sit at his Fathers right hand for a time.

 

[ebedmelech]

I think you need to review your understanding with all due respect.

I don't think so. So stick with your view, and let's see how God does it.

I can flat guarantee you there will be no pre-tribulational rapture. It CANNOT be proven from scripture.

 

[JLB777]

Heretical doctrine is anything that denies explicitly stated scripture.

It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. For all conclusions about when it takes place are based on interpretation.


The fact of the rapture, although not its timing, is explicitly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So it is indeed heretical doctrine to deny that this will happen.

I Thessalonians 4 & 5 are the foundation of POST TRIBULATION DOCTRINE.

There is not one single Pre-Trib scripture in the Bible.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Paul teaches us here THE CHURCH WILL COME WITH JESUS.

Jesus is not coming for the Church, but WITH THE CHURCH.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Paul teaches us clearly that the Rapture is after the Resurrection.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

THIS IS THE DAY OF THE LORD WHEN JESUS RETURNS TO STRIKE THE NATIONS AND PUT AN END TO ALL RULE.

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3

Paul teaches us here that The Day of The Lord WILL NOT COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT FOR THE CHURCH.


There is no such thing as the doctrine of immanency!


JLB

 

[Douggg]

I'm just putting a quick post here. I thought I saw someone talk about this earlier anyway. Generally, in churches that speak explicitly of the 'rapture', they consider that a separate event from the Second Coming of Christ. The rapture is this secret event where Christians are whisked away, escaping things like martyrdom, while the world goes to pot. So, you essentially have the secret Second Coming of Christ and the visible Second Second Coming of Christ according to most 'rapture' believers.

This is not a view that is accepted by historical Christianity. We call it dispensationalism- and most adhere to the premillenialist variety- and it is commonly attributed to John Nelson Darby- and has only really become popular since his time.

If you think all of that is confusing- you're not alone. I was raised with that view- and I'm pretty sure I still don't understand it. Reading the scriptures used to justify said belief and looking at all the various charts doesn't really help. I only think it makes things more confusing.

If they said the rapture was separate from the Second Coming, why are you misrepresenting them to say that essentially you have a secret Second Coming? That's not what they say.

The Second Coming is the Revelation, the revealing of The Lord Jesus Christ to them on the earth as the Heavens part and see Jesus before the throne of God, then every eye will see him, coming down to earth in great power and glory, to end the reign of terror by the Antichrist, to rescue the Jews in Jerusalem, to execute judgment on them gathered to make war on him, to bring the Kingdom of God to earth to subject all kingdoms of men, and to rule over the heathen with a rod of iron.

 

[seashale76]

If they said the rapture was separate from the Second Coming, why are you misrepresenting them to say that essentially you have a secret Second Coming? That's not what they say.

The Second Coming is the Revelation, the revealing of Jesus Christ to them on the earth as the Heavens part and see Jesus before the throne of God, then every eye will see him, coming down to earth in great power and glory, to end the reign of terror by the Antichrist, to rescue the Jews in Jerusalem, to execute judgment on them gathered to make war on him, to bring the Kingdom of God to earth to subject all kingdoms of men, and to rule over the heathen with a rod of iron.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. People confuse the 'rapture' doctrine with the second coming all the time- and the difference needs to be pointed out for the sake of clarity. Half the time in these threads- there isn't a lot of distinction made- but a whole lot of confusion. To reject the 'rapture' is not to necessarily reject the other. BTW, how can you call something the second coming- when it is really the third (according to your doctrines) anyway?

 

[Douggg]

I'm not misrepresenting anything. People confuse the 'rapture' doctrine with the second coming all the time- and the difference needs to be pointed out for the sake of clarity. Half the time in these threads- there isn't a lot of distinction made- but a whole lot of confusion. To reject the 'rapture' is not to necessarily reject the other. BTW, how can you call something the second coming- when it is really the third (according to your doctrines) anyway?

The Second Coming means the second time Jesus is present in visible form here on earth, the first time as the suffering servant, the second time as returning as the conquering king.

You weren't clarifying anything in your post. You were intentionally muddying the waters.

 

[seashale76]

The Second Coming means the second time Jesus is present in visible form here on earth, the first time as the suffering servant, the second time as returning as the conquering king.

You weren't clarifying anything in your post. You were intentionally muddying the waters.

The 'rapture' doesn't mean Jesus is returning in any fashion in a separate event from the second coming? Explain again how the second coming is not actually a third coming, then? The fact that it is not secret negates the one that is secret? It's difficult for me to muddy something that is devoid of clarity and sense in the first place.

 

[iamlamad]

Two different and entirely separate events.

The Harpazo and the Second Coming.

The Harpazo is reward.

The Second Coming is judgement.

The problem is when we attempt to bunch everything into the same basket.

For instance: "we will all rule and reign with the Lord during the Millennial Reign."

And then they use verses like 2 Tim 2:12/ Job 36:7 and Dan 7:18 to name a few to co-sign.

HOWEVER, the Word is explicit, stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt as to who exactly rules during this specific period of time.
Rev 20:...4...
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

In order to qualify for this position we MUST meet the eligibility factors of
Be " beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands."

IE; God does not make all apostles, ALL prophets, ALL teachers or all have the power to do miracles.

NOT everybody does the same job now, He is not going to rearrange His management team because someone who is guided by a carnal appetite cleverly wove some verses to co-sign a self-centered agenda and has been teaching it for several centuries. Heb 13:8

Does Lord Jesus tell us that when He returns that He will actually touch this planet when He shows up in the clouds as quoted in Matthew 24:29-31 Mark 13:36/ Luke 21/27.

NO.

Just like the cleaver men of thought make it scriptural that we ALL go to ruling in Rev 20 or co-sign a Pre-T camp teaching by demanding that we, the entire Body of Christ is in heaven when the Rev. 5:9-10 when in fact the role call is clearly made and there is NO mention of the GM being there, just sung about.

The SC is seen in Zack 14:4/ Rev 14:19 and Rev 19.

The Harpazo is seen in Matt 24/ Mrk 13/ Lk 21/ 1 Cor 15/ 1 Thess 4/ Rev 14:16 and the results can clearly be seen in Rev 7.

These are not cleverly woven verses to prove anything other than according to the Word, Lord Jesus shows up in the sky among the clouds and has His elect gathered, then He executes justice on the literal blood line of Israel.

Only spiritual arrogance would demand that we are not portioned to part of the GT or must endure the entire GT when we have a clear view of the GM standing before the Throne of God who came out of the GT, before the last part of the GT takes place.

UNTIL we reach the specific time of the evidence of the 6th seal as being present tense, any exegesis made otherwise is surrounded by supposition, conjecture and hypothesis.


Love,
משרתם בונד של ישו
Brother Jerry

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4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


WHO lived and reigned? BOTH groups: those seated on thrones (the Bride of Christ) AND those beheaded.

LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in our ability to understand the 2nd coming when it can indeed be summarized by a few words like Heb 9 "coming again to judge the world." It is the hair-splitting of all the lesser events that creates so much confusion. Don't lose sight of the larger picture.

 

[seashale76]

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in our ability to understand the 2nd coming when it can indeed be summarized by a few words like Heb 9 "coming again to judge the world." It is the hair-splitting of all the lesser events that creates so much confusion. Don't lose sight of the larger picture.

I totally agree with you here. But the fact is- when these folks are talking about the 'rapture' they're not talking about the second coming.

 

[JLB777]

I'm not misrepresenting anything. People confuse the 'rapture' doctrine with the second coming all the time- and the difference needs to be pointed out for the sake of clarity. Half the time in these threads- there isn't a lot of distinction made- but a whole lot of confusion. To reject the 'rapture' is not to necessarily reject the other. BTW, how can you call something the second coming- when it is really the third (according to your doctrines) anyway?

The Rapture takes place AFTER the Resurrection, which is after the tribulation, AT HIS COMING!

This is the Day of The Lord.

Every Eye will see HIM!


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.


The Day of The Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the Church!


JLB

 

[iamlamad]

I don't think so. So stick with your view, and let's see how God does it.

I can flat guarantee you there will be no pre-tribulational rapture. It CANNOT be proven from scripture.

Of course if you read with preconceived glasses you will be blind to the truth. It is impossible to believe that 2 + 2 = 3 and at the same time believe 2 + 2 = 4. So before you will EVER understand truth, you will have to let go of MYTH.

Paul was very clear, the rapture, HIS rapture, will come at a time when people are saying "peace and safety" (understood to mean it IS a time of peace and safety)....a day like today. Then a SUDDENLY comes - the dead in Christ rise and that causes a MASSIVE, worldwide earthquake. One instant later those who are alive and in Christ as WATCHING (believing in His pretrib coming) will be caught up, and then TOGETHER (the "gathering") we will rise up to meet Jesus in the air, and in the cloud.

AT the same time, those living in darkness (AND those believers not watching and believing for His coming) will get SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. That is the deadly, worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising.

Recap: at this sudden destruction those ready for the rapture will get "salvation" (rapture) and get to "live together with Him," or as he wrote in chapter 4, "so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Then from John 14, we KNOW (no doubt at all) that WHERE we go with Jesus will be TO HEAVEN, to the mansions prepared for us, to WAIT OUT the 7 years of God's wrath on earth. Then, AFTER the 7th vial and the resurrection of the OLD Testament saints, it is time for the wedding and supper - IN HEAVEN. Finally, after the supper is finished, Jesus AND all the saints (and probably all the angels) return to earth for the battle of Armageddon.

John was in PERFECT agreement with Paul, showing us the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, BEFORE the 70th week begins.

Now we have TWO WITNESSES of the pretrib rapture. If we correctly understand 2 Thes. 2 as the gathering ......the bride being "taken out of the way" in the rapture, then we have THREE witnesses.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

The Rapture takes place AFTER the Resurrection, which is after the tribulation, AT HIS COMING!

This is the Day of The Lord.

Every Eye will see HIM!


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.


The Day of The Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the Church!


JLB

The rapture will be the TRIGGER for the DAy. Therefore it will come BEFORE the day, as Paul clearly shows us in chapter 5. And John shows us just as clearly that the DAY begins at the end of the 6th seal, or at the first trumpet judgment. What did John write? "The DAY of His wrath has come."

So why don't you believe John? All this is proven in Revelation, John SAW the church in heaven before he even begins the 70th week. (Rev. 7)

LAMAD

 

[ebedmelech]

Of course if you read with preconceived glasses you will be blind to the truth. It is impossible to believe that 2 + 2 = 3 and at the same time believe 2 + 2 = 4. So before you will EVER understand truth, you will have to let go of MYTH.

Paul was very clear, the rapture, HIS rapture, will come at a time when people are saying "peace and safety" (understood to mean it IS a time of peace and safety)....a day like today. Then a SUDDENLY comes - the dead in Christ rise and that causes a MASSIVE, worldwide earthquake. One instant later those who are alive and in Christ as WATCHING (believing in His pretrib coming) will be caught up, and then TOGETHER (the "gathering") we will rise up to meet Jesus in the air, and in the cloud.

AT the same time, those living in darkness (AND those believers not watching and believing for His coming) will get SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. That is the deadly, worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising.

Recap: at this sudden destruction those ready for the rapture will get "salvation" (rapture) and get to "live together with Him," or as he wrote in chapter 4, "so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Then from John 14, we KNOW (no doubt at all) that WHERE we go with Jesus will be TO HEAVEN, to the mansions prepared for us, to WAIT OUT the 7 years of God's wrath on earth. Then, AFTER the 7th vial and the resurrection of the OLD Testament saints, it is time for the wedding and supper - IN HEAVEN. Finally, after the supper is finished, Jesus AND all the saints (and probably all the angels) return to earth for the battle of Armageddon.

John was in PERFECT agreement with Paul, showing us the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, BEFORE the 70th week begins.

Now we have TWO WITNESSES of the pretrib rapture. If we correctly understand 2 Thes. 2 as the gathering ......the bride being "taken out of the way" in the rapture, then we have THREE witnesses.

LAMAD

Like I say Lamad...take your preconceived and contrived rapture glasses off.

What you have there is "eschatalogical fantasy" by way of "Left Behind" fiction. All you have to do is let scripture say what it says...which is not a pretribuational rapture...and you'll find that out.

All seals are opened, no trumpets are blowing, and no vials are being poured out. Just a huge misunderstanding of OT as well as NT.

 

[L0U]

No!
"The rapture teaching" is not heretical teaching.

It's kinda' like asking if "preterism" is heretical teaching.

 

[iamlamad]

I totally agree with you here. But the fact is- when these folks are talking about the 'rapture' they're not talking about the second coming.

Indeed, I am one of "these folks" that write of the pretrib rapture and I disagree. The Pretrib rapture will be His SECOND coming, or NEXT coming. Paul used the word "coming" in his rapture verses.

When He comes AFTER the week has finished, as shown in Rev. 19, it will be His THIRD coming.

Someone will shout, "the bible does not teach three comings!" Yes, it does. It just does not COUNT them.

LAMAD

 

[SwordFall]

IS THE RAPTURE A HERETICAL TEACHING?

The pre-Rapture is. Nothing quite says wishful thinking much like believing one isn't going to witness the Apocalypse if they are alive when it begins.

To be honest, it irks my nerves, because it's so... convenient. As are many things many Christians teach today.

 

[ebedmelech]

No!
"The rapture teaching" is not heretical teaching.

It's kinda' like asking if "preterism" is heretical teaching.

"Full preterism" is heretical as it holds all of scripture has been fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. That is not true. People often confuse "Partial preterism" with Full preterism. There are those who don't think "Full preterism" is heretical. For the purposes of this forum, it does hold "Full preterism" to be heretical.

OTOH people also confuse "Amillennialism" with "Partial preterism"...they are close but different.

 

[iamlamad]

JBL777 wrote,
Originally Posted by Biblewriter

Heretical doctrine is anything that denies explicitly stated scripture.

It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. For all conclusions about when it takes place are based on interpretation.


The fact of the rapture, although not its timing, is explicitly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So it is indeed heretical doctrine to deny that this will happen.
​

I Thessalonians 4 & 5 are the foundation of POST TRIBULATION DOCTRINE.

There is not one single Pre-Trib scripture in the Bible.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Paul teaches us here THE CHURCH WILL COME WITH JESUS.

Jesus is not coming for the Church, but WITH THE CHURCH.

How could you be SO FAR from the truth, and be attempting to teach on a public forum?

First, He will be coming with the DEAD in Christ. There will be many ALIVE in Christ on earth.

I do agree, it is heretical to say there will be no rapture. Those that say this need to tear 1 Thes. 4 & 5 out of their bibles - or quit teaching false doctrine.

You are right, there is no "timing" in chapter 4, but in chapter 5 Paul GIVES US the timing: the rapture will come JUST BEFORE the Signs for the Day of the Lord. Indeed, will be the TRIGGER for those signs. Paul's SUDDEN DESTRUCTION is caused by the rapture; the dead in Christ rising will cause a worldwide earthquake. Those alive and caught up will be caught up SO QUICKLY after the dead in Christ, the earthquake will not get them either. But those who are left behind will face this worldwide earthquake. It will be MASSIVE devastation, and it will be the first SIGN for the start of the DAy of the Lord. (Isa. chapter 2)

So you are WRONG. ! thes. 4 & 5 ARE pretrib. And John chapter 7, where John SAW the Bride of Christ in heaven, is PRETRIB, for John does not even begin the 70th week until the 7th seal. So we have TWO witnesses that Jesus will come PRETRIB for His bride, then come WITH His bride over 7 years later.

The Day of the Lord starts right where John TELLS US it starts, at the end of the 6th seal.
LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

IS THE RAPTURE A HERETICAL TEACHING?

The pre-Rapture is. Nothing quite says wishful thinking much like believing one isn't going to witness the Apocalypse if they are alive when it begins.

To be honest, it irks my nerves, because it's so... convenient. As are many things many Christians teach today.

How can something clearly written in the bible be heretical? TRUTH is, the PRETRIB rapture is SCRIPTURAL. We had three witnesses to it. Did you quit reading in 1 thes. 4? Study chapter 5. The SUDDENLY is the pretrib rapture. The sudden destruction is a massive worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. The rapture, as Paul shows us, is the TRIGGER for the DAy, or if you please, the trigger for the SIGNS of the Day: first the massive earthquake (See Isaiah 2) then the signs in the sun and moon - all shows at the 6th seal.

Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven, in Rev. 7, BEFORE he has even started the 70th week.

LAMAD