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The Rapture - heretical teaching

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by random person, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. YES

  2. NO

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  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Well, the bible says Jesus coming a second time, so the 70 weeks has to be divided into two separate times because Jesus left this world in Acts1. And right now is in heaven, as our high priest. The 70 weeks are determined on Israel and Jerusalem. Up to the present neither has received Jesus as their messiah.

    None of the apostles said that anywhere in the new testament. The confirmation of the covenant is for seven years. The week is not cut in half. The daily sacrifices and oblation will be stopped in the midst of the week.

    The 7 years "confirming the covenant for 7 years" is in the bible as a law that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:10-11 for all future generations to observe to remember that the promised land that God gave to the children of Israel is theirs, forever.

    The Antichrist is the prince who shall come will confirm the covenant for 7 years, perceived by the Jews to be their long awaited messiah, King of Israel.

    Because in the old testament, the gospel of Salvation that the messiah would die for mankind to free us from the power of sin - was kept a secret from understanding, and that the end times prophecies were sealed in that the second coming of the cutoff messiah was not revealed to understanding back then.

    Even the apostles were not given the understanding of the start to finish scenario of the end times. Jesus told them it was not for them to know.

    The Antichrist was not spoken of as the Antichrist until after the true messiah was cutoff, resurrected, and left this world. No-one was talking about the "Antichrist" in the old testament days.

    It would be more correct to say the 70th week or last seven years. Seven year trib is something that became a common way of describing those seven years because the Antichrist will be the one who confirms the covenant (the Mt. Sinai covenant) as the Jews perceived king messiah. Technically the term seven year trib is not in the bible.
     
  2. Philpy1976

    Philpy1976 Junior Member

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    “Know therefore and understand,
    That from the going forth of the command
    To restore and build Jerusalem
    Until Messiah the Prince,
    There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks"


    7 weeks + 62 weeks = 69 weeks (483 years)
    which takes us to Jesus baptism.

    this leaves 1 week, the 7 year ministry of Messiah, which of course is cut short, but not for His sake, but ours.
    If somebody wanted to argue that 3.5 years of Daniel still remain, I'd be interested in what this could mean, but there are clearly not 7 years left.
     
  3. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    Geezuss, look at the huge convoluted mess Rapture believers make of the Second Coming of Christ. Yech!

    Keep it some and there will no confusion and do not put your own stamp of approval on metaphoric or symbolic passages.

    I can barely read some of these posts! Messy and confused.

    Keep it simple. There is only going to be ONE RESURRECTION and ONE RETURN!

    Hebrew 9:28

    so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

    John 5:28-29

    28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

    1 Corinth. 15:25-26

    25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death (via the ONE RESURRECTION OF THE ONE RETURN!)

    1 Corinth. 15:51-52

    Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    CHRIST RETURNS ONCE, ALL THE DEAD IS RAISED AT ONCE NOT A 1000 YEARS APART AND THE LIVING IS CHANGED, ALL WITHIN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE!
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It does not say 7 year ministry of the Messiah. The Apostles did not say anything about a 7 year ministry. Jesus did not say anything about a 7 year ministry.

    There are 7 years left. The messiah arrived in Jerusalem as the messiah, son of David, hailed as that by them wanting him as king - 4 days later he was crucified, cutoff after the 69 weeks. Not 69.5 weeks.

    The confirming of the covenant for 7 years is the law set forth by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:10-11. The Jews of today are aware of that law, but they can't observe it because the muslims control the temple mount.

    7 And Moses called unto Joshua, and said unto him in the sight of all Israel, Be strong and of a good courage: for thou must go with this people unto the land which the Lord hath sworn unto their fathers to give them; and thou shalt cause them to inherit it.
    8 And the Lord, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.
    9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and unto all the elders of Israel.
    10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
    11 When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

    The cycle has been broken for the past 2000 years, and the Antichrist will restart that cycle, which is the confirming the covenant for seven years. It is a remembrance ceremony. A reading of what Moses told Joshua in verses 7 and 8.

    And then the ceremony of confirming the covenant is suppose to done again at the end of the seven years, a cycle to be repeated over and over. But the Antichrist betrays them in the middle of the 7 years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  5. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  6. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The purpose is to bring an end to the church age and usher in the time when God will again take up His direct dealings with Israel as a nation.
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Yes, that is pretty straightforward, if, but only if, you are correct in your assumption that thus is speaking of the rapture.
     
  9. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    First, we need to understand that, although most of our English translations say seventy weeks, the Hebrew word translated weeks was shabuwa' (word number 7620 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This word was used in the Old Testament for both a period of seven days and a period of seven years. Only the context could show whether days of years was meant. An in this case, the context clearly shows that the meaning could not even possibly been days. So it is not simply interpretation to take seventy weeks as meaning 490 years. This is a fully legitimate significance of the Hebrew words used here.

    Daniel was told, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." (Daniel 9:26) Here we have sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years, from the going forth of the commandment to Messiah the Prince. Some claim that there is historical evidence that the triumphal entry occurred exactly 483 years, to the day, after the signing of this order. I cannot personally testify as to the accuracy of this claim. But history indeed confirms that it occurred at approximately that time.

    But now the Divinely inspired account contains a break. We read, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Daniel 9:25-26)

    Two things were to happen after the sixty-two week second part of this account. And we know that both of them indeed happened exactly as explicitly stated. “Messiah” would “be cut off,” and “the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Messiah was indeed cut off, and the city and the sanctuary were indeed destroyed. We know from history that these two events did not happen within a seven year period. Most historians feel that our calendar is in error, and the actual date of Jesus’ birth was 4 BC. Since Jesus lived thirty-three years, that puts his death in 29 A.D. But the city was not destroyed until 70 A.D., forty-one years after that. So even if there are small errors in the accepted dates of history, we absolutely know that “the city and the sanctuary” were not destroyed in the same week (seven year period) that our Lord was crucified. But we need to notice that both of these events are presented before the last week is even mentioned. So here we see an absolutely undeniable break in the scriptural account of the seventy weeks.

    But the last week is treated differently. It does not even say that this is the seventieth week. The only reason we know that it is the seventieth week is because all the rest of the weeks had already been used up. So this week had to be the seventieth one. We read, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

    Now many imagine that this verse speaks of the cross. They want to interpret the word “for” in this verse as “in,” and claim that this was speaking of Jesus confirming God’s covenant with us “in” the seventieth week, and claim that Jesus was crucified at the middle of the seventieth week. But even if history were wrong by so many years, this interpretation does violence to the structure of the prophecy. For the last week is not even mentioned until after the two events that were to take place after the sixty-ninth week.

    But an end time covenant that will not be fulfilled is clearly mentioned in other Old Testament prophecies. One of these is Isaiah 28:14-18, where we read, “Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.”

    Again, in Isaiah 57:7-9 we read, “Upon a lofty and high mountain hast thou set thy bed: even thither wentest thou up to offer sacrifice. Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it. And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.”

    So we see that the scriptures indeed clearly foretell a future covenant that God will not allow to be fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 is only one of several places where this covenant in mentioned.

    But the seventieth week does not depend only upon Daniel 9. Daniel 9:27 mentions a great upheaval in the midst of the seventieth week. This divides the week into two half-weeks these half-weeks are repeatedly mentioned in scripture.

    The first way these half-weeks are mentioned is the term "time, times, and half a time" (three and a half years, half of seven years.) The first place is in Daniel 7:25, where we read “a time and times and half a time” We find the expression “a time, times, and half a time” again in Daniel 12:7. And the third place is Revelation 12:14, where we again read “a time, times and half a time.”

    Then, we read about periods of forty-two months (again, three and a half years, half of seven years.) We fond these in Revelation 13:5 and again in Revelation 11:2.

    Finally, we find it as 1260 days (forty-two Jewish months, which were 30 days long, again three and a half years, half of seven years.) We find the time stated this way in revelation 11:3 and again in Revelation 12:6.

    In showing where the scriptures mention these two half-weeks I have not made ant distinction between those that speak of the first half of the week and those that speak of the last half. That is another subject and its discussion belongs in another place. The point has only been to show how many times these periods of half a week are mentioned in the prophecies of the Bible.

    So we see that the coming seven year period is actually mentioned many times in the Bible, and described in many ways.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  10. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    And doesn't premillennialism contradict Hebrews 12:28?

    We are to receive a kingdom that can not be shaken. Premillennialist believes Christ reigns for a 1000 years on this earth not the New Earth and New Jerusalem with his saints BUT that is a kingdom that can be shaken (DESTROYED).

    There is something amiss when one attributes too much futurist literalism to the book of Revelation. This is a metaphoric writings with a great deal of symbolism.

    Christ is already reigning and has been since Pentecost.
     
  11. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    You post many scriptures about different subjects and then claim they are obviously all talking about the same thing, when there is nothing obvious about that conclusion.

    But here, your error is even greater. You are expressly denying what God has explicitly said,

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Revelation 20:4-5
     
  12. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
    Hebrews 2:8
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    [FONT=&quot]In the old testament scriptures, in Ezekiel 39:4 ,following Gog/Magog, there is a feast on Gog's army. In Ezekiel 39:17-20, there is a larger feast, coming after the 7 years which Israel will burn the war implements of Gog's army. That feast is the Armageddon feast in Revelation 19:17-21, as Jesus executes judgment on the heathen. And makes his presence here on this earth, as the one King, one Lord, in Zechariah 14:9.

    In Ezekiel 39, following what is the Armageddon feast, it says that after executing Judgement on them the heathen (gathered to stop Jesus from returning in Revelation 19), the God of Israel will make his presence among the heathen, that is, he will be present here ruling on this earth, Jesus returned.

    21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
    22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.

    Those verses in Ezekiel 39 are tied to Psalms 2. In Psalms 2, the gathering at Armageddon, why do the heathen rage and image a vain thing. Psalms 2.

    1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
    2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
    3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
    4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
    5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
    6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
    7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    Begotten thee, as King, ruling King Messiah here on earth from Israel, Zion.
    [/FONT]
     
  14. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I think you are correct in interpreting the term Cannot be shaken to mean cannot be destroyed.

    But where did you get the idea that Revelation indicates that the kingdom is destroyed after the 1000 years? It clearly says the very opposite.

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    Revelation 20:7-9

    This indeed says that at the end of the thousand years there will be a rebellion. But then it clearly says that the army of the rebels will be destroyed by fire. Than it goes on to describe in detail the punishment of the leader of that rebellion, and of all his followers.

    There is not even the slightest hint in all of this that the kingdom was destroyed in this rebellion.
     
  15. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    Jesus sat at the right hand of God. He is the Kings of Kings, Lord of Lords. His Kingdom is not of this world and is without end.

    Additionally how is it possible for Jesus to have an earthly kingdom Jeremiah 22:30 + Matthew 1:11?
     
  16. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    This is all metaphoric along with the millennial rule of Jesus. Because Jesus is ruling now Acts 2:33. This battle could be entirely metaphoric?
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Would you recite the Lord's prayer,which is taught to young children even. What do you think "Thy Kingdom come" means? Come where? The Kingdom of heaven is going to be brought down here to earth, with Jesus as the King. That's at Jesus's Second Coming. That's what He is going to do.

    Our Father, which art in heaven,
    Hallowed be thy Name.
    Thy Kingdom come.
     
  18. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  19. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    And where have I contradicted any of this? Only there isnt going to be a Rapture just a single Second Coming!
     
  20. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    But all these passages can tie into the Second Coming of Christ. It will be the greatest event the world has ever witnessed and will entail a bad end to billions of resurrected and living persons.
     
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