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The Rapture - heretical teaching

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by random person, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. YES

  2. NO

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  1. shturt678s

    shturt678s Regular Member

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    your painting yourself into a corner, ie, just a head's up. The whole of the church age was of the "Amillennialism" camp viewing commentaries, say, from Victorinus of Pettau (about 270 B.C.) through the middle ages, ie, Julian of Toledo (7th century or so) through the Reformation till today three forths of the church is Amillennial (at least 65% for sure). :idea:

    Old Amil. Jack :thumbsup:

    btw this doesn't mean the majority is correct regarding their view, ie, just means the majority's view was "Amillennial". :eek:
     
  2. coraline

    coraline Active Member

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    The O.T. never spoke of a temporary reign of the Messiah for only a thousand years either.
     
  3. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    No. That's what you think is truth. You see Jesus binding Satan all through the gospels. Satan is cast out of people by Jesus...and what it looks like is you want to hold to a complete binding of Satan, but you let the scriptures tell you how Satan is bound Lamad.

    When you hear Jesus say in John 12:31, 32:
    31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
    32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”


    Jesus is telling you Satan is cast out of heaven because he can no longer accuse as Christ paid the sin debt on the cross. However this world is not free from Satan,,,but we believers are binding Satan by preaching the gospel! Every person that comes to Christ is a case of binding Satan.

    It's confirmed in Revelation 12:7-12
    7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
    8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
    11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
    12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”


    Are you noticing the WOE to earth? Satan is bound from access to heaven. This is your error because you fail to see what Satan is bound from!

    That is truth Lamad...right there "NOW the salvation and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come,..."...why are they saying that in heaven?...because Jesus has PAID IT ALL!!

    Wake up and smell the truth!!! :thumbsup:
     
  4. shturt678s

    shturt678s Regular Member

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    :thumbsup:

    All viewed the two Coming of Christ as one even except Daniel at Dan.9:24, ie, God's program for all ages.

    Old Jack :thumbsup:
     
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I don't see how you imagine this is painting myself "into a corner." You yourself have admitted that you cannot fond this aberrant doctrine any earlier than around the year 270 (A.D.n not B.C.).

    But as to what victornius actually said about Revelation 20, Here is the translation of it as give in "the Preterist Archive."

    "20 And the scarlet devil is imprisoned and all his fugitive angels in the Tartarus of Gehenna at the coming of the Lord; no one is ignorant of this. And after the thousand years he is released, because of the nations which will have served Antichrist: so that they alone might perish, as they deserved. Then is the general judgment. Therefore he says: And they lived, he says, the dead who were written in the book of life, and they reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the first resurrection: toward this one the second death has no power. Of this resurrection, he says: And I saw the Lamb standing, and with him 144 thousands, that is, standing with Christ, namely those of the Jews in the last time who become believers through the preaching of Elijah, those who, the Spirit bears witness, are virgins not only in body, but also in language. Therefore, as he reminds above, the 24 elder-aged said: Grace we bring to You, O Lord God who has reigned; and the nations are angry.

    2 At this same first resurrection will also appear the City and the splendid things expressed through this Scripture. Of this first resurrection Paul also spoke to the Macedonian church, thus: For as we have thus said to you, he says, by the Word of God, that at the trumpet of God, the Lord Himself will descend from heaven for raising up; and the dead in Christ will stand first, then we who are living, as we will be taken up with Him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.a We have heard the trumpet spoken of; it is observed that in another place the Apostle names another trumpet. Therefore he says to the Corinthians: At the last trumpet, the dead will rise, will become immortal, and we will be changed.b He says the dead will be be raised immortal for bearing punishments, but it is shown that we are to be changed and to be covered in glory. Therefore where we hear "the last trumpet," we must understand also a first, for these are two resurrections. Therefore, however many were not previously to rise in the first resurrection and to reign with Christ over the world, over all nations, will rise at the last trumpet, after the thousand years, that is, in the last resurrection, among the impious and sinners and perpetrators of various kinds. He rightly adds, saying: Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the first anastasis: toward this one the second death has no power. For the second death is being thrown into hell."

    And even as late as the fifth century, Jerome called futurism "the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church." the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church

    The church gave up the truth of chilism at about the same time it gave up justification by faith.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
  6. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    AS I have known for some time, you don't read verses very closely, so come up with wild theories, far from truth. Please note: "shall the prince of this world be cast" is FUTURE TENSE in this verse, while
    "now judgment is upon" is present tense. Really, this only takes a little common sense: Peter wrote (probably written in 81 AD) that Satan goes about as a hungry lion....seeking whom he may devour. These verbs are all PRESENT TENSE verbs.

    You can choose to believe whatever theories you like; but PETER tells us Satan is alive and well, roaming about looking for people to DEVOUR. This means HE IS NOT IN THE BOTTOMLESS PIT, as Jack is trying to tell us. That is false doctrine. He will not be locked into the bottomless pit until sometime in the FUTURE.

    John wrote, "for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." IN CONTEXT, this will happen at the midpoint of the FUTURE 70th week.
    That is not even my side of the argument! Jack thinks Satan is in the bottomless pit, BOUND UP...LOCKED UP. Of course this is false doctrine. Satan is STILL roaming the earth seeking whom he may devour.

    You are hopelessly LOST in these verses in Revelation. This is FUTURE. Satan is still allowed to roam the atmosphere, the "high places" the heavenlies. You are even MORE LOST, in thinking ANY of the three woes have happened. Today we are just experiences LIFE ON EARTH as normal. We are still waiting on Jesus to break the 6th seal, which will be for the SIGNS of the Day of the Lord. This is way back in Rev. chapter 6. You are FAR MORE Lost, because you imagine chapters 7-12 are history, when in fact, they are FUTURE.

    Let's just take one event:
    Rev. 9
    And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
    2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
    3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
    7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
    8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
    9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
    10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
    11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

    Please tell us WHEN this happened?

    WHEN is this "now?" It will be WHEN Satan will be cast down. You have NO CONCEPT of John's chronology. Most of John's verbs in Revelation were written as Greek AORIST tense verbs that in truth show NO TENSE AT ALL. To get timing from Revelation, one MUST follow his chronology. Chapters 11-14 are MIDPOINT chapters, FUTURE and will be at or near the midpoint of the FUTURE 70th week.

    THIS is truth. Can you handle the truth?

    LAMAD
     
  7. shturt678s

    shturt678s Regular Member

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    Thank you (A.D. also), ie, you brought back old memories spending late eves in the University's libraries where today just have to Google it up in today's time. It's been decades since I seen Victorinus' commentary, ie,thank you again. I do remember my research was pretty evenly split from the first century to the 4th, those that said nothing about it out of the equation where those that were not Premil. were about the same number of those that were Premil. leaving two for sure Amill's, ie, Victorinus and Augustine of course.

    He nailed this one as a non-Preterist: Each soul from Adam forward that was saved reign with Christ, ie, the symbolic first resurrection. It surprised me long ago that he got this one where most even miss this today even on Google? :confused:

    You need to change the color of your paint, ie, Jerome became a Amill. :idea he actually started distancing himself from Premil. and started to embrace Amill. to be on the money.

    Old Jack, ie, good Job! We can agree to disagree ;)
     
  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I only studied the first few centuries, for I was not even interested in what was taught after the church lost its moorings. But in truth, almost every allegedly Amillenist writer from that period that I examined did not make a clear Amillenist statement at all. Almost all of them only said something that some modern person interpreted to imply Amillenialist thinking. The few exceptions I am aware of are Origen, Dionysius, Eusebius, and Caius. But Caius hardly counts for he rejected the entire book of Revelation. If you can educate me any others who made clear amil statements, I will look at them.

    On the other hand, chilism was clearly taught by, at the very least, Papias, Justyn, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hyppolytus, Commodianus, Lactantius, Apollinaris, Nepos, and Victorinus of Petau.
     
  9. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    What your doing is called trolling so I"m only going to ask once.

    What does 'Rapture' mean?

    That's another word for resurrection and if you don't believe it you have no business in a Christians only forum.
     
  10. shturt678s

    shturt678s Regular Member

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    :thumbsup:

    Chiliasm is clearly taught due to placing the "Tribulation" (Rev.7:14) conveniently after a so called Rapture where Christ comes back for His Church. placing the Trumpets of preliminary judgments out of touch with the Chruch. :confused:

    Those born into any full blown apostasy have been always measured at Rev.11:1 since 70 A.D. (Rev.11:3), ie, those getting through the Trumpets of delusions where God will make one religiously believe whatever they want to believe before any "Rapture," eg, now, this moment (IIThess.2:10b). At least you only have "2" Comings of Christ where recently I heard of a "rapturist" viewing "3" Comings? I only see Him Coming back "1" more time, ie, the end.

    Old Jack :thumbsup:
     
  11. shturt678s

    shturt678s Regular Member

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    Had to go over and over your post, ie, lots of meat - thank you again! Off the grid but found interesting, ie, Mr. Hill of the RT camp where Mr. W. Hendriksen missed the interpretation of Rev.6:2, yet Mr. S. Kistemaker almost nailed it from my older Lutheran view; however both appallingly and astonishingly really missed the burden of Revelation's document in Rev.8:7, etc.? :confused:

    Only a head's up regarding what the "Tribulation" we're faced with today where the 'big boys' really missed it? :blush:

    Small potato,

    Old Jack :thumbsup:

    Appreciated, and :thumbsup: with your post however!!!
     
  12. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    MOD HAT

    As a reminder folks, the Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose includes this
    :
    II. No flaming opposing theological views

    The Eschatology forum is for discussing and debating the various theological viewpoints of biblical end times events. All members who participate in Eschatology are self-identified Christians through adherence to the Christian Forums' Statement of Faith and the Trinitarian nature of God. It is expected that people who post in the Eschatology forum will respect all members of the Christian faith.

    • Always remember that you are first and foremost brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of your theological differences on the topic of end time events.
    • If you would be offended by a word or phrase applied to your theological viewpoint, then someone of the opposing viewpoint would be offended as well.
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      • Examples (including but not limited to): false gospel, false prophet, heretics, blasphemers, evil, sheep in wolves clothing, different God.
    Closing this thread for a review

     
  13. Aviela

    Aviela Bubbles

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    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2014
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