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The Rapture - heretical teaching

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by random person, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. YES

  2. NO

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  1. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    Yes

    John 6:40 ...'And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.'

    John 11:24 ...'Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'

    John 12:48 ...'He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.'
     
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  2. spiritandtruth2

    spiritandtruth2 Newbie

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    So when is the last day?

    That would then explain everything would it not?
     
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Heretical doctrine is anything that denies explicitly stated scripture.

    It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. For all conclusions about when it takes place are based on interpretation.


    The fact of the rapture, although not its timing, is explicitly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    So it is indeed heretical doctrine to deny that this will happen.
     
  4. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    No!

    John 6:40 ...'And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.'

    John 11:24 ...'Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'

    John 12:48 ...'He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.'
     
  5. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    Here is a repost semi-linear way to read scriptures concerning the Second Coming aka Day of the Lord but these verses are often misinterpreted as a Rapture:

    2 Thess. 2:1

    Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

    1 Thess. 4:16-17

    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

    2 Thess. 1:7,10

    and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, When He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

    1 Corinth. 15:50-57

    50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Peter 3:10

    10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

    2 Peter 3:12

    12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

    2 Thess. 1:8-9

    dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

    2 Peter 2:11,13

    Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

    But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

    2 Thess. 2:2

    2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

    2 Thess. 2:3

    Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

    1 Thess. 5:9

    For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    1 Thess. 5:2-8

    2 for you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
     
  6. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Random person, do you know what "heretical" means?

    I do not ascribe to the "pretribulational rapture" either, but to label it as heretical is not proper. It's an accepted teaching that I believe is erroneous based on passages contrived to teach it.

    I voted no. The rapture is not heretical...but it is error. The only rapture will happen at the "last day". As Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57.

    *The dead in Christ will rise first.

    *Those who are alive when Christ returns will be caught up and changed.

    *We will forever be with the Lord after that.

    This is consistent teaching of the apostle Paul repeated again in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

    These passages teach the resurrection of the last day, as our Lord consistently asserted!
     
  7. B1inHim

    B1inHim LOVE one another

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    Two different and entirely separate events.

    The Harpazo and the Second Coming.

    The Harpazo is reward.

    The Second Coming is judgement.

    The problem is when we attempt to bunch everything into the same basket.

    For instance: "we will all rule and reign with the Lord during the Millennial Reign."

    And then they use verses like 2 Tim 2:12/ Job 36:7 and Dan 7:18 to name a few to co-sign.

    HOWEVER, the Word is explicit, stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt as to who exactly rules during this specific period of time.
    Rev 20:...4...
    Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

    In order to qualify for this position we MUST meet the eligibility factors of
    Be " beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands."

    IE; God does not make all apostles, ALL prophets, ALL teachers or all have the power to do miracles.

    NOT everybody does the same job now, He is not going to rearrange His management team because someone who is guided by a carnal appetite cleverly wove some verses to co-sign a self-centered agenda and has been teaching it for several centuries. Heb 13:8

    Does Lord Jesus tell us that when He returns that He will actually touch this planet when He shows up in the clouds as quoted in Matthew 24:29-31 Mark 13:36/ Luke 21/27.

    NO.

    Just like the cleaver men of thought make it scriptural that we ALL go to ruling in Rev 20 or co-sign a Pre-T camp teaching by demanding that we, the entire Body of Christ is in heaven when the Rev. 5:9-10 when in fact the role call is clearly made and there is NO mention of the GM being there, just sung about.

    The SC is seen in Zack 14:4/ Rev 14:19 and Rev 19.

    The Harpazo is seen in Matt 24/ Mrk 13/ Lk 21/ 1 Cor 15/ 1 Thess 4/ Rev 14:16 and the results can clearly be seen in Rev 7.

    These are not cleverly woven verses to prove anything other than according to the Word, Lord Jesus shows up in the sky among the clouds and has His elect gathered, then He executes justice on the literal blood line of Israel.

    Only spiritual arrogance would demand that we are not portioned to part of the GT or must endure the entire GT when we have a clear view of the GM standing before the Throne of God who came out of the GT, before the last part of the GT takes place.

    UNTIL we reach the specific time of the evidence of the 6th seal as being present tense, any exegesis made otherwise is surrounded by supposition, conjecture and hypothesis.


    Love,
    משרתם בונד של ישו
    Brother Jerry

    Lets fellowship now :amen:
    How Great is our GOD WORLD EDITION LiVe - YouTube
     
  8. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    It is heretical because after the Rapture God then deals with Israel when God already made a New Covenant with Jews.

    Furthermore, the Temple, Levitical priesthood, and animal sacrifices served as shadows and types of Christ.

    They're purposes ended with Christ. During Biblical Israel three types of people were anointed with the Holy Spirit, kings, priests, and prophets. These offices now belong to Christ. Jesus is the Kings of Kings, our perfect High Priest, and the greatest prophet of all.

    Rapture believers believe Jews have two simultaneous covenants and Gentiles have one. That the Mosaic Covenant and New Covenant are both valid today for the Jews.

    Oh yes this is heretical alright!
     
  9. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    When you examine the "6th seal", it's already opened when the Lord came in judgment of Jerusalem/Israel in 70 AD.

    That language comes straight from Matthew 24:29-31. It is the Lord Jesus' wrath exercised on them.

    Something He clearly informed the disciples they would see...some of them did too.
     
  10. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    Or do you deem Jesus unnecessary for the Jews?
     
  11. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To me, "rapture" means the resurrection of the children of God.

    "The dead in Christ will rise first." So, then, those beheaded will rise before those who have not been beheaded :) according to my interpretation, with the understanding that those who have been beheaded will be dead, and so they will be included among those who are "dead in Christ", rising before ones who will still be alive at the Rapture.

    So, since the dead rise first, this means to me that the Rapture will be sometime after ones have been beheaded for Jesus. But there will still be ones alive, whom our Father has been able to keep alive until then . . . as He is easily able to keep us > "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil."

    His wrath judgments can not hurt His own children . . . like how Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were right in the fiery wrath of that furnace but it did not effect them with even the smell of smoke . . . while that same fire killed the men who threw them in there. So, that fire, with God, was protection for them and not danger. Like this, the wrath judgments of God can help to protect us :) And it will make it hard for evil people to mess with us, except if and when He allows them to behead us or whatever.

    Otherwise, it could be easier than how things are now . . . maybe? Because if those judgments are taking out all those evil people, they will leave behind their food and cars and donkeys and huts, for us to use? So, who cares if we can't buy or sell? We can use whatever is left behind by judged people! Who needs to work? Who needs to have kids? You can adopt the children of those who are wiped out, and God is able to convert them to become children of Him trusted to your care. You "could" be a full-time "stay-at-home" parent with God giving you even a new house and car, each day.

    Jesus does say His yoke is easy and His burden light.
     
  12. PhillipLaSpino

    PhillipLaSpino Achieve; don’t plunder!

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    Listening to you who deny the rapture remind me of a jilted bride, one who will be left standing at the altar. You had better refresh yourselves on the story of Noah, and the consequence for all who did not believe in a coming catastrophe.

    Do you think the 7 years of tribulation is going to be some kind of exotic entertainment for Christians?

    The problem you have

    1. You never learned to separate God's dealing with the Jews who rejected him from that of the church. Why do you keep throwing the church under the bus with the Jews?

    2. Matt. Mark, Luke and John concern Jesus earthly ministry in which his two main purposes for coming were to seek and to save the lost house of Israel; note (LOST HOUSE OF ISRAEL) and to show and to prove to them that He was the Jewish Messiah, the one the O.T., prophets spoke of. There was no Christian church when Jesus walked with the men of Israel!

    Well any way if you want to stand with the jilted bride, be my guest! And what will remain on earth for you after we have been taken will be nothing but bad news from bad men!

    Also, you throw all kinds of verses out there, and think you proved your case. But you forget to tell us who is speaking, who their speaking to, the time, and place, and the context. Sorry, it doesn't work that way! You don’t examine the Greek words and the relationship they have to the Hebrew language, religion, culture, and times.

    I get the impression you want to put the finishing touches on an already finished work!

    Phil LaSpino
     
  13. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Well...examine it.

    *If Noah in the ark is a rapture, when did it happen?

    ON THE LAST DAY...:thumbsup:
     
  14. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    This is still ERROR. Paul is clear, his rapture comes BEFORE and as the trigger for, the Day of the Lord.

    John is clear, the Day of the Lord starts either at the end of chapter 6 or the beginning of chapter 8. The rapture was not seen by John, but will take place one instant before the great earthquake of the 6th seal. John DID see the bride of Christ in heaven in chapter 7.

    Then LATER, after the 70th week has finished, and AFTER the wedding and supper in heaven, Jesus returns on the white horse, as seen in Rev, 19. The Bride of Christ will return WITH Him on white horses.

    LAMAD
     
  15. spiritandtruth2

    spiritandtruth2 Newbie

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    I always thought the rapture was really speaking about the Ist resurrection which is of the 144,000.

    Also the "Last Day" is the Thousand Year reign of Jesus Christ with the 144,000 n his Heavenly Kingdom which are chosen to be Kings & Priests to rule over a cleansed earth.
     
  16. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    When the angels spoke of destruction, no one believed them. They had to drag Lot and family (less sons-in-laws) out of there. It should be no surprise of equal unbelief in the rapture.
     
  17. seashale76

    seashale76 Orthodox Christian and Unapologetic Iconodule

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    I'm just putting a quick post here. I thought I saw someone talk about this earlier anyway. Generally, in churches that speak explicitly of the 'rapture', they consider that a separate event from the Second Coming of Christ. The rapture is this secret event where Christians are whisked away, escaping things like martyrdom, while the world goes to pot. So, you essentially have the secret Second Coming of Christ and the visible Second Second Coming of Christ according to most 'rapture' believers.

    This is not a view that is accepted by historical Christianity. We call it dispensationalism- and most adhere to the premillenialist variety- and it is commonly attributed to John Nelson Darby- and has only really become popular since his time.

    If you think all of that is confusing- you're not alone. I was raised with that view- and I'm pretty sure I still don't understand it. Reading the scriptures used to justify said belief and looking at all the various charts doesn't really help. I only think it makes things more confusing.
     
  18. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    The Last Day (easy)

    DO NOT MARVEL at this; for the hour is coming, in which ALL who are in the tombs shall HEAR his VOICE, AND SHALL COME FORTH; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who comitted the evil deeds to a resurrection to judgment.

    But each in his own order,

    For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

    The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

    Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you, Depart from me, You who practice lawlessness.'

    because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness

    But you,brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake like a thief

    then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment

    But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    By this, love is perfected with us,that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
     
  19. spiritandtruth2

    spiritandtruth2 Newbie

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    But the destruction this time is quoted at Revelations.

    (Revelation 11:18) 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” (Do you believe this" I do!

    So it's to bring to ruin those ruining the earth which really is in harmony with this Scripture.

    (Proverbs 2:20-22) 20 The purpose is that you may walk in the way of good people and that the paths of the righteous ones you may keep. 21 For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. 22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.

    So the Kingdom which is Jesus Christ and the 144,000 will rule over the one's left on the earth, and the resurrection of our loved ones will be during the "last day" which is the Thousand Year reign of Jesus Christ that why Jesus was preaching about the Kingdom where ever he went.

    Eureka

    (Matthew 9:35) 35 And Jesus set out on a tour of all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the good news of the kingdom and curing every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity.

    So everyone on the earth at the time Jesus starts ruling will be cured.

    (Revelation 21:2-4) 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

    So we don't go to heaven after all, we stay on the earth and are cured of any infirmity, we see our dead loved one's again on earth, a second chance (Adam took away our first chance), that makes sense that was God's original purpose in the beginning.

    The Rapture is a false teaching that all Christian will be raised to Heaven suddenly, my Goodness, it's only the 144.000 who go to heaven,

    (Revelation 5:10) 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Meaning the number of 144,000)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  20. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    The 144,000 is a figurative number that represents the fullness of all believers. John hears each of the 12 tribes counted at 12,000 for a total of 144,000. After John hears that, he looks to see what that number represents, which is a great multitude which no one can number. They are in white robes with palm branches praising God. That is all of the redeemed of God.
    Once again this "thousand year reign" is figurative of the entire time Christ has been reigning since His resurrection. Jesus received the reign in Matthew 28:18 and announced it to the apostles:
    18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

    Receiving "all authority" from the Father, the reign of Christ is NOW. Christ has been in control of all things since He was raised.

    Peter has given us this in saying in 2 Peter 3:8
    8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
    9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


    Jesus will return when the salvation of all to be redeemed is accomplished. The reign of Christ will end with His judgment of the world and He will return the reign to the Father.

    This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.
     
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