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The Rapture - heretical teaching

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by random person, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. YES

  2. NO

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  1. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    1 Corinth. 15:25-26
     
  2. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Dougg, Ps 2 is used over and over by the apostles about the resurrection, about the kingdom that came that knocked other kingdoms out of its way without human hands.

    btw, let's be literal about Ez 39. "the weapons will be used for fuel for seven years." Now, besides the 7 year thing (you "experts" in the tribs and the half-tribs, better get your literal calculators going on that one--you'll need 7 years of cooking and heating with spear shafts. No catastrophes or diseases or earthquakes, because you're going to have cooking and heating for 7 years, literally.), there is the problem of deforestation. It is against the law to make weapons out of wood. It may also be ineffective, judging from the modern explosives seen in videos here at E&P that prove prophecy is true. Especially in the middle east. There are almost no classes on archery in the middle east, for some reason.

    Also, does anyone know the background of 'gathering wood from fields'? It is paired with cutting woods from forests, which I'm familiar with, but I've never heard of 'gathering wood from fields.'
     
  3. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    From a non-literal POV, any else see the parallels between Revelation 1:17-18 and Revelation 20:1-10?

    A SIX HUNDRED YEAR PROPHECY:

    Daniel 8:26

    “The vision of the evenings and mornings
    Which has been told is true;
    But keep the vision secret,
    For it pertains to many days in the future.”[\COLOR]

    Daniel 12:4

    But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; [\COLOR]many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

    COMPARED TO A 2,000 YEAR PROPHECY?:

    Revelation 22:10

    And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.[\COLOR]

    Revelation 1:1

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place;[\COLOR] and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

    Revelation 1:3

    Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.[\COLOR]

    Revelation 22:6

    And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.[\COLOR]
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Why don't you stop just saying this, and demonstrate from the scriptures why you think this is correct.

    Along the way, try to demonstrate from the scriptures the error you imagine in the OP of the current thread "A Scriptural Precedent 1"
     
  6. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    Revelation wasn't a sealed prophecy like Daniel's because

    A. It was written to the Seven Churches in Asia Rev. 1:4,10-11

    B. the things which must soon take place Rev. 1:1
    for the time is near. Rev. 1:3
    the things which must soon take place. Rev. 22:6
    Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Rev. 22:10

    This suggests to me Revelation is largely preterist prophecies for the 1st century AD Christians. 1000 year reign of Christ is his reign between Pentecost to his Second Coming.

    His Kingdom is not of this world (and IT WILL NEVER BE OF THIS WORLD) and His Kingdom will never end (IT CAN NOT BE SHAKEN, DESTROYED OR REMADE, OR INVADED).
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Yes, there are several places that parts of Psalms 2 were used in new testament by the apostles, mainly because they thought they were living in the last days, but were not understanding of how all the endtimes passages fit together because Jesus said it was not for them to know.

    The part you write "about the kingdom that came that knocked other kingdoms out of its way without human hands" what is your verse for that?

    History records brutal kingdom after brutal kingdom here on earth for the passed two thousand years. When Jesus returns no more of that.
     
  8. shturt678s

    shturt678s Regular Member

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    Technically Rev.6:2 (Rom.1:18), ie, non-miraculous preliminary judgments, began at Lk.21:24, ie, 70 A.D. and continues to thd "1" so called "Rapture," (Parousia) ie, the "1" ending of the world as we know it, ie, continue even after Satan's loosing.

    The Trumpest of Revelation depict miraculous preliminary destrcutive religious delusions in sync with the Seals throughout the world, and even in the Churches till Rev.20:7 where Satan is loosed personally. Aslo began at 70 A.D. and happening now (IIThess.2:10b).

    Old Jack :idea:
     
  9. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    2 Thess. 2:7 + 2 Thess. 2:3 + Rev. 20:7?
     
  10. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. - 1 Thessalonians 5:3-5
     
  11. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If, by "rapture", you mean the first resurrection, then your rapture idea is not heresy.

    But - - - if you mean "pre-trib rapture" . . . why do you mean this and believe this?

    To me, heresy means that you prefer not only an idea but whoever is promoting that idea, in a way so you are separating yourself from Christians, in order to stay with whoever is your favorite mainly because of an idea. So, if your pre-trib rapture idea is to you only an opinion you are still testing prayerfully, then I'd say it is not heresy, in your case. Or, even if you are sure of your pre-trib rapture idea, but you are not looking down on others with a different view, I would say your idea by itself is not really a heresy. But if your pre-trib thing has you fighting with and looking down on Christians who believe in post-trib, then your belief is self-righteous and therefore heretical, self-favoring at least your own self over others.

    But I would say you are not a heretic, if you favor your wrong idea but do not totally cut yourself off from other Christians with other views. After all, the disciples of Jesus struggled with one another about who was the greatest, but Jesus kept them as His disciples and did not give up on them :) They were not only trying to promote some idea, but were trying to promote their own selves over others. But Jesus still did not reject them as heretics.

    Even if pre-trib were correct, there can be unscriptural reasons for believing in a pre-trib rapture.

    (1) Saying the Bible directly teaches pre-trib is not correct. I have found not one scripture which directly and in plain and simple wording says anything like, "Jesus will come back and resurrect us before the great tribulation."

    (2) There are pre-trib people who believe certain ones will be saved during the great tribulation; yet, these pre-tribbers do not want to be here to love and help our newborn brothers and sisters who will be born during the tribulation. I find it interesting, how ones so insist we need mature seasoned pastors and other experienced church members; yet, they see no need for newborns right in the tribulation itself to have our decades-seasoned ministers and other mentors to be there for them. If the church is cleared out before the trib, which is said to be seven years long, then no Christian in the trib will have more than seven years Christian experience. So, how can a pre-trib person believe we so need our more-than-seven-years experienced ministers, but newborns in the worst of all times will not need our pastors and others???? And why don't you love them enough to volunteer to Jesus, that if He pleases you would appreciate staying here in order to help your newborn brothers and sisters in the trib? In case you would like Jesus to just whoosh you out so you don't suffer for Him and you don't care about the newborns of the trib having you to help them, then it could be your way of believing pre-trib is not only unscriptural but anti-love. Make sure about if your reasons are scriptural and according to love. "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

    (3) Ones argue that God has not appointed us to wrath, and therefore He will not have us going through the trib. Well, what about the newborns, then, who will be in the trib.? Do you think they will not be safe from our Father's wrath? If they are safe, why wouldn't you be? Our Father is not like some abusive father who in his wrath hurts his well-behaved children along with the naughty ones. Our Father has self-control. This can be demonstrated by how Shadrach and Meshach and Abed-Nego were right in that fiery furnace and the flames did not hurt them, at all, right while those flames took out the evil men who threw them into the furnace. Like this, our Father's trib judgments will only effect evil people, and will actually help to control them so they can't mess with us except as our Father has planned and controls. If you think "God" has a self-control problem, it is Satan who has this problem, not our Father; so if you think that in the trib you would be in danger from God's wrath . . . whose child are you? And do you have God and Satan mixed up, if you feel God in His wrath would hurt you who are a His child? Satan is the one who in wrath has his self-control problem; God our Father does not have such a problem, as we also can see through Psalm 91:7 which, to me, says thousands of evil people may fall at your left and right hands but it will not come near you.

    (4) Ones fear that they would not be able to make it and do well in the trib, and therefore Jesus has to rapture them before all the trouble there will be in the trib. Again . . . then . . . how is it that newborn Christians in the trib will serve the LORD (consider Revelation chapter 7), but you would not be able to do well "there"?? If you want to be raptured because you feel you don't have what it takes to serve our Father during great trouble, possibly your reason for believing in pre-trib is anti-faith. Do not doubt how our Father is able to take care of us in any situation . . . easily and breezily and beautifully in His love > depending on Him > it is not about you being able (the way you are, now) ! ! ! ! :) "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." (in 2 Corinthians 12:9)

    Grow more, discover how God proves Himself to you, then see what you believe :) What you can believe can be connected with how your character is now.
     
  12. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Except for the words "it cannot be shaken," your comments in capitol letters are not scripture. They are your interpretations of what scripture means. Man's interpretations of the meanings of scripture are not scripture.

    In this case, your interpretations directly contradict many explicitly stated passages of scripture, so they cannot even possibly be correct.
     
  13. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    I can't agree with your premise.

    The "first resurrection" refers to the Spiritual resurrection that makes us alive in Christ. This is why the second death has no power...BECAUSE WE ARE ALIVE TO GOD!!!

    *If we are alive in Christ...when Christ comes we are changed

    *If we die in Christ, we go into His presence in spirit, and at the resurrection our spirit is joined to our immortal body.

    I support that in these verses:

    *Romans 6:4-7

    *Romans 8:11

    *Ephesians 2:4-6

    *Colossians 2:12

    *Colossians 3:1


    These make the point of what Christ saying to Martha at the raising of Lazarus in Luke 11:25-27
    25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
    26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”


    The "first resurrection" is when we receive Christ!!! :thumbsup:
     
  14. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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  15. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is absolutely correct!

    This is also unquestionably correct. I am a leader of pre-trib thought, but I have seen many ridiculous "proofs" offered for it, even as I have seen many ridiculous "proofs" offered to disprove it.

    This is also correct. But it is true of every position on the timing of the rapture. The Bible very clearly sys it will happen, but does not say when it will happen.

    Here you totally misunderstand the motivation of pre-tribulation teaching. I would have to admit that there are indeed some who "like" this doctrine because it says they will not be here during that time. But no true Christian teacher advocates any doctrine just because he "likes" it.

    We teach this doctrine because we are absolutely persuaded, from the depths of our hearts, that this is what the scriptures actually teach.

    Yes, the "wrath" argument is very weak.

    You need to understand what we are saying a little better before you attack what we say. I can honestly say that in my fifty plus years f invlovement, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire pre-trib movement express even one of the attitudes you speak of here.
     
  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is absolutely correct!

    This is also unquestionably correct. I am a leader of pre-trib thought, but I have seen many ridiculous "proofs" offered for it, even as I have seen many ridiculous "proofs" offered to disprove it.

    This is also correct. But it is true of every position on the timing of the rapture. The Bible very clearly sys it will happen, but does not say when it will happen.

    Here you totally misunderstand the motivation of pre-tribulation teaching. I would have to admit that there are indeed some who "like" this doctrine because it says they will not be here during that time. But no true Christian teacher advocates any doctrine just because he "likes" it.

    We teach this doctrine because we are absolutely persuaded, from the depths of our hearts, that this is what the scriptures actually teach.

    Yes, the "wrath" argument is very weak.

    You need to understand what we are saying a little better before you attack what we say. I can honestly say that in my fifty plus years of involvement, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire pre-trib movement express even one of the attitudes you speak of here.

    For some of the reasons for believing in a pre-tribulation rapture, see the multiple part OP in the current thread titled "A Scriptural Precedent 1."
     
  17. shturt678s

    shturt678s Regular Member

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    Rev.8:7-9:21 = IIThess.2:11, 12 expounded = IIThess.2:10b now for anyone that does not have the agape of the Truth - relax, I don't have it.

    God styled His Word for all those that have IQs that range with ambient temperature, ie, "me." Waiting for the temperature to rise, old Jack :eek:
     
  18. SwordFall

    SwordFall Junior Member

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    Considering the verses themselves, I believe one would be hard pressed to say they aren't speaking of the rapture.
     
  19. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Job to son-in-laws, who are laying around the shack smoking weed...

    "All right guys, rapture time! Arise and lets go!"

    Son-in-laws to Job...

    "Oh wow man, the guy has, like, flipped out!"
     
  20. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    It is the intent of the author, whether or not you understand it. If you wish to be LEFT BEHIND, that is your choice. If I were you, I would get into the closet and read chapter 5 about a hundred times, asking God to reveal HIS intent. And pray much in the Holy Ghost. Praying in the Holy Ghost is how you build yourself UP in faith. Perhaps a few hours of praying in the Holy Spirit and you would understand that GOD IS PRETRIB.

    NO AMOUNT of unbelief on the earth will cause Him to change His mind. He is coming SOON for His Bride. If you are not ready and watching, you WILL BE left behind.


    LAMAD
     
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