• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

The Rapture - heretical teaching

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by random person, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. YES

  2. NO

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. spiritandtruth2

    spiritandtruth2 Newbie

    430
    +6
    Christian
    Single
    I think you need to review your understanding with all due respect he had to sit at his Fathers right hand for a time.
     
  2. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +595
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I don't think so. So stick with your view, and let's see how God does it.

    I can flat guarantee you there will be no pre-tribulational rapture. It CANNOT be proven from scripture.
     
  3. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

    +891
    Non-Denom
    Married

    I Thessalonians 4 & 5 are the foundation of POST TRIBULATION DOCTRINE.

    There is not one single Pre-Trib scripture in the Bible.


    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

    Paul teaches us here THE CHURCH WILL COME WITH JESUS.

    Jesus is not coming for the Church, but WITH THE CHURCH.

    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    Paul teaches us clearly that the Rapture is after the Resurrection.

    17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    THIS IS THE DAY OF THE LORD WHEN JESUS RETURNS TO STRIKE THE NATIONS AND PUT AN END TO ALL RULE.

    1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3

    Paul teaches us here that The Day of The Lord WILL NOT COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT FOR THE CHURCH.


    There is no such thing as the doctrine of immanency!


    JLB

     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,717
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    If they said the rapture was separate from the Second Coming, why are you misrepresenting them to say that essentially you have a secret Second Coming? That's not what they say.

    The Second Coming is the Revelation, the revealing of The Lord Jesus Christ to them on the earth as the Heavens part and see Jesus before the throne of God, then every eye will see him, coming down to earth in great power and glory, to end the reign of terror by the Antichrist, to rescue the Jews in Jerusalem, to execute judgment on them gathered to make war on him, to bring the Kingdom of God to earth to subject all kingdoms of men, and to rule over the heathen with a rod of iron.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  5. seashale76

    seashale76 Orthodox Christian and Unapologetic Iconodule

    +3,989
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    I'm not misrepresenting anything. People confuse the 'rapture' doctrine with the second coming all the time- and the difference needs to be pointed out for the sake of clarity. Half the time in these threads- there isn't a lot of distinction made- but a whole lot of confusion. To reject the 'rapture' is not to necessarily reject the other. BTW, how can you call something the second coming- when it is really the third (according to your doctrines) anyway?
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,717
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    The Second Coming means the second time Jesus is present in visible form here on earth, the first time as the suffering servant, the second time as returning as the conquering king.

    You weren't clarifying anything in your post. You were intentionally muddying the waters.
     
  7. seashale76

    seashale76 Orthodox Christian and Unapologetic Iconodule

    +3,989
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    The 'rapture' doesn't mean Jesus is returning in any fashion in a separate event from the second coming? Explain again how the second coming is not actually a third coming, then? The fact that it is not secret negates the one that is secret? It's difficult for me to muddy something that is devoid of clarity and sense in the first place.
     
  8. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    +561
    United States
    Word of Faith
    Married
    You also missed it here:

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    WHO lived and reigned? BOTH groups: those seated on thrones (the Bride of Christ) AND those beheaded.

    LAMAD
     
  9. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

    +97
    Non-Denom
    Single
    I wouldn't put a lot of stock in our ability to understand the 2nd coming when it can indeed be summarized by a few words like Heb 9 "coming again to judge the world." It is the hair-splitting of all the lesser events that creates so much confusion. Don't lose sight of the larger picture.
     
  10. seashale76

    seashale76 Orthodox Christian and Unapologetic Iconodule

    +3,989
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    I totally agree with you here. But the fact is- when these folks are talking about the 'rapture' they're not talking about the second coming.
     
  11. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

    +891
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The Rapture takes place AFTER the Resurrection, which is after the tribulation, AT HIS COMING!

    This is the Day of The Lord.

    Every Eye will see HIM!


    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.


    The Day of The Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the Church!


    JLB

     
  12. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    +561
    United States
    Word of Faith
    Married
    Of course if you read with preconceived glasses you will be blind to the truth. It is impossible to believe that 2 + 2 = 3 and at the same time believe 2 + 2 = 4. So before you will EVER understand truth, you will have to let go of MYTH.

    Paul was very clear, the rapture, HIS rapture, will come at a time when people are saying "peace and safety" (understood to mean it IS a time of peace and safety)....a day like today. Then a SUDDENLY comes - the dead in Christ rise and that causes a MASSIVE, worldwide earthquake. One instant later those who are alive and in Christ as WATCHING (believing in His pretrib coming) will be caught up, and then TOGETHER (the "gathering") we will rise up to meet Jesus in the air, and in the cloud.

    AT the same time, those living in darkness (AND those believers not watching and believing for His coming) will get SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. That is the deadly, worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising.

    Recap: at this sudden destruction those ready for the rapture will get "salvation" (rapture) and get to "live together with Him," or as he wrote in chapter 4, "so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    Then from John 14, we KNOW (no doubt at all) that WHERE we go with Jesus will be TO HEAVEN, to the mansions prepared for us, to WAIT OUT the 7 years of God's wrath on earth. Then, AFTER the 7th vial and the resurrection of the OLD Testament saints, it is time for the wedding and supper - IN HEAVEN. Finally, after the supper is finished, Jesus AND all the saints (and probably all the angels) return to earth for the battle of Armageddon.

    John was in PERFECT agreement with Paul, showing us the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, BEFORE the 70th week begins.

    Now we have TWO WITNESSES of the pretrib rapture. If we correctly understand 2 Thes. 2 as the gathering ......the bride being "taken out of the way" in the rapture, then we have THREE witnesses.

    LAMAD
     
  13. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    +561
    United States
    Word of Faith
    Married
    The rapture will be the TRIGGER for the DAy. Therefore it will come BEFORE the day, as Paul clearly shows us in chapter 5. And John shows us just as clearly that the DAY begins at the end of the 6th seal, or at the first trumpet judgment. What did John write? "The DAY of His wrath has come."

    So why don't you believe John? All this is proven in Revelation, John SAW the church in heaven before he even begins the 70th week. (Rev. 7)

    LAMAD
     
  14. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +595
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Like I say Lamad...take your preconceived and contrived rapture glasses off.

    What you have there is "eschatalogical fantasy" by way of "Left Behind" fiction. All you have to do is let scripture say what it says...which is not a pretribuational rapture...and you'll find that out.

    All seals are opened, no trumpets are blowing, and no vials are being poured out. Just a huge misunderstanding of OT as well as NT.
     
  15. L0U

    L0U Regular Member

    253
    +4
    Non-Denom
    Married
    No!
    "The rapture teaching" is not heretical teaching.

    It's kinda' like asking if "preterism" is heretical teaching.
     
  16. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    +561
    United States
    Word of Faith
    Married
    Indeed, I am one of "these folks" that write of the pretrib rapture and I disagree. The Pretrib rapture will be His SECOND coming, or NEXT coming. Paul used the word "coming" in his rapture verses.

    When He comes AFTER the week has finished, as shown in Rev. 19, it will be His THIRD coming.

    Someone will shout, "the bible does not teach three comings!" Yes, it does. It just does not COUNT them.

    LAMAD
     
  17. SwordFall

    SwordFall Junior Member

    +33
    Catholic
    Single
    The pre-Rapture is. Nothing quite says wishful thinking much like believing one isn't going to witness the Apocalypse if they are alive when it begins.

    To be honest, it irks my nerves, because it's so... convenient. As are many things many Christians teach today.
     
  18. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +595
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    "Full preterism" is heretical as it holds all of scripture has been fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. That is not true. People often confuse "Partial preterism" with Full preterism. There are those who don't think "Full preterism" is heretical. For the purposes of this forum, it does hold "Full preterism" to be heretical.

    OTOH people also confuse "Amillennialism" with "Partial preterism"...they are close but different.
     
  19. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    +561
    United States
    Word of Faith
    Married
    JBL777 wrote,
    Originally Posted by Biblewriter [​IMG]
    Heretical doctrine is anything that denies explicitly stated scripture.

    It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. For all conclusions about when it takes place are based on interpretation.


    The fact of the rapture, although not its timing, is explicitly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    So it is indeed heretical doctrine to deny that this will happen.
    I Thessalonians 4 & 5 are the foundation of POST TRIBULATION DOCTRINE.

    There is not one single Pre-Trib scripture in the Bible.


    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
    even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

    Paul teaches us here THE CHURCH WILL COME
    WITH JESUS.

    Jesus is not coming for the Church, but
    WITH THE CHURCH.


    How could you be SO FAR from the truth, and be attempting to teach on a public forum?

    First, He will be coming with the DEAD in Christ. There will be many ALIVE in Christ on earth.

    I do agree, it is heretical to say there will be no rapture. Those that say this need to tear 1 Thes. 4 & 5 out of their bibles - or quit teaching false doctrine.

    You are right, there is no "timing" in chapter 4, but in chapter 5 Paul GIVES US the timing: the rapture will come JUST BEFORE the Signs for the Day of the Lord. Indeed, will be the TRIGGER for those signs. Paul's SUDDEN DESTRUCTION is caused by the rapture; the dead in Christ rising will cause a worldwide earthquake. Those alive and caught up will be caught up SO QUICKLY after the dead in Christ, the earthquake will not get them either. But those who are left behind will face this worldwide earthquake. It will be MASSIVE devastation, and it will be the first SIGN for the start of the DAy of the Lord. (Isa. chapter 2)

    So you are WRONG. ! thes. 4 & 5 ARE pretrib. And John chapter 7, where John SAW the Bride of Christ in heaven, is PRETRIB, for John does not even begin the 70th week until the 7th seal. So we have TWO witnesses that Jesus will come PRETRIB for His bride, then come WITH His bride over 7 years later.

    The Day of the Lord starts right where John TELLS US it starts, at the end of the 6th seal.
    LAMAD
     
  20. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    +561
    United States
    Word of Faith
    Married
    How can something clearly written in the bible be heretical? TRUTH is, the PRETRIB rapture is SCRIPTURAL. We had three witnesses to it. Did you quit reading in 1 thes. 4? Study chapter 5. The SUDDENLY is the pretrib rapture. The sudden destruction is a massive worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. The rapture, as Paul shows us, is the TRIGGER for the DAy, or if you please, the trigger for the SIGNS of the Day: first the massive earthquake (See Isaiah 2) then the signs in the sun and moon - all shows at the 6th seal.

    Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven, in Rev. 7, BEFORE he has even started the 70th week.

    LAMAD
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...