The Physical Afterlife

[ScottA]

Traditional Christian consensus is actually rather vague about the afterlife, and anything beyond that little bit is speculation.

The resurrection of the dead is about continuity with this world, that in fact, this life matters (and thus making sin all the more tragic). As biblical scholar N.T. Wright has in the past few decades pointed out, the biblical hope common to many Jews and Christians is for a renewed creation where things are set right, not for an otherworldly existence.

Now, why would some Christians focus instead on "this world is not my home?" I suppose it is due to certain gnostic tendencies in some strains of Protestantism, to deny or ignore the physicality of God's incarnation in Jesus Christ implicitly. The incarnation as theology is not necessarily central to all self-described Christians, and as a consequence, the resurrection takes on a decidedly different emphasis.

You are missing what should be obvious: God is perfect...and is spirit.

The manifestation of this world, is not to devolve God to be physical, but to set men free from it.

 

[FireDragon76]

You are missing what should be obvious: God is perfect...and is spirit.

The manifestation of this world, is not to devolve God to be physical, but to set men free from it.

This sounds more like Gnosticism... where does the Incarnation fit in your theology? Here's a test for you, can you say that God died on the cross in any sense?

 

[ScottA]

This sounds more like Gnosticism... where does the Incarnation fit in your theology? Here's a test for you, can you say that God died on the cross in any sense?

I wouldn't know about Gnosticism, but I already said it: You say incarnation, I said manifestation. The Infinite does not exist for the finite, but just the opposite. That which is finite, has a finite purpose, and is otherwise passing away.

 

[ViaCrucis]

As I said, you are welcome to post all your ideas about the physical afterlife - and, as far as I am concerned, you are also free to copy/paste whatever you like.
Personally, though, I would be most interested in the "Heaven" part, and even more so in practial matters rather than abstract ones.
We needn´t even get into the the deep problems and troubles we are facing in this physical world.
I´m thinking of mundane things like:
Two neighbours have a very different taste of music; and they are annoyed when they must listen to the music the other one is playing at high volume.
Now, in Heaven? How come there are no such sufferings/annoyances?
Possible solutions I can think of from the top of my head:
- People in Heaven have all the same taste /people in Heaven have no musical preferences
- Heaven is physical but we will have no ears.
- People in Heaven live in isolation cabs.
- In Heaven there are customized spiritual sound-barriers around each person, that either open up only for the sounds the person likes or transform all unwelcome sounds into enjoyable sounds.

- In the age to come we are no longer slaves of our passions and, transformed in the perfect love of God, the petty things like being annoyed by musical preference are irrelevant and non-existent.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I wouldn't know about Gnosticism, but I already said it: You say incarnation, I said manifestation. The Infinite does not exist for the finite, but just the opposite. That which is finite, has a finite purpose, and is otherwise passing away.

And yet God has called His creation "exceedingly good", and St. Paul has written that the creation groans for the resurrection, and the Prophets looked forward and saw the renewal of all things, which St. John echoes in his apocalypse.

If you are saying the material world doesn't matter and doesn't have a place in God's future purposes, then--with all due respect--you are teaching rank heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Different Christians have differing afterlife beliefs. IIRC, Mormons (who some people don't think are Christian) believe there are 3 levels of heaven, all of a spiritual nature.

Just FWIW: By far, the most detailed and interesting view of Heaven was Dante's version. His Paradise was 9 physical spheres surrounding the Earth, each corresponding to a celestial body. (Like the Sun, Venus, Mars, etc.) I think the Moon was the first level. And surrounding these was the spiritual realm where God and Jesus resided, along with those souls rewarded with the highest degree of glory. I'm sure this was Dante's own creation, and wasn't official RC doctrine. It's a very cool combination of Christianity, astrology, and classical mythology. Been a long time since I've read it.

The orthodox perspective--what one will find in the official teaching of Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican (etc)--are in agreement about the resurrection of the body and the world to come. What one won't typically find is official teaching going into elaborate detail about things we can't possibly know or even imagine.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Maybe the next Christian tells us that Heaven isn´t really such a great place, to begin with.

"Heaven" best describes the intermediate state, not the ultimate state. The Bible itself tells us next to nothing about it, and Christian teaching has few significant dogmatic ideas about it. In the mainstream, traditional, and orthodox Christian perspective the Christian hope isn't "Heaven" but the resurrection and age to come. Some might still call that "Heaven" but that seems to produce more confusion than its worth when many people conceive of "Heaven" as "some place up there".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are missing what should be obvious: God is perfect...and is spirit.

The manifestation of this world, is not to devolve God to be physical, but to set men free from it.

That's Gnosticism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Chriliman]

"Heaven" best describes the intermediate state, not the ultimate state. The Bible itself tells us next to nothing about it, and Christian teaching has few significant dogmatic ideas about it. In the mainstream, traditional, and orthodox Christian perspective the Christian hope isn't "Heaven" but the resurrection and age to come. Some might still call that "Heaven" but that seems to produce more confusion than its worth when many people conceive of "Heaven" as "some place up there".

-CryptoLutheran

Well put! God created heaven and earth in such a way that they both serve to reach an ultimate goal of a perfect physical reality that is free from all pain and suffering. God Himself suffers in order to create this perfect physical reality, we suffer too and all the suffering does have a purpose. God is working to help us fully realize this purpose and His good will towards us.

 

[Oafman]

And yet God has called His creation "exceedingly good"

Well, I guess if I were omnipotent, I'd have no room for modesty either!

 

[ScottA]

And yet God has called His creation "exceedingly good", and St. Paul has written that the creation groans for the resurrection, and the Prophets looked forward and saw the renewal of all things, which St. John echoes in his apocalypse.

If you are saying the material world doesn't matter and doesn't have a place in God's future purposes, then--with all due respect--you are teaching rank heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

On what point do you find heresy? For every point I have made is from God and confirmed in the scriptures:

• The world was made [a manifestation] out of nothing, and is nothing.
• The world is passing away.
• A new [spiritual] world is being built.
• All that God made in the creation was [only] very good...but NOT perfect, and Christ said, not that we would be "very good", but that we would be "perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect." Very good is not enough.

 

[ScottA]

That's Gnosticism.

-CryptoLutheran

Call it what you will - but it is God's will that we be like Him, which is spirit. Apparently you do not share His will. I do.

 

[Chriliman]

• The world was made [a manifestation] out of nothing, and is nothing.

This seems to be the issue. God did not create the world out of nothing. He created the world with His word, His word is not nothing. There was never nothing, there's only ever been God.

• The world is passing away.

The old way of things is passing away because it will have served it's purpose that God made it for.

• A new [spiritual] world is being built.

Revelation clearly speaks of a new physical heaven and earth where we'll have physical bodies that are imperishable.
Revelation 21:1
"Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

• All that God made in the creation was [only] very good...but NOT perfect, and Christ said, not that we would be "very good", but that we would be "perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect." Very good is not enough.

Christ also said that only God is good.

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."

"good" and "perfect" both describe God accurately.

What God has created is good for the purposes that He created it for, which is eternal life for His beloved creation. We're just not quite there yet, but we're getting there.

 

[quatona]

Christ also said that only God is good.

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."

Interesting to learn that Jesus isn´t God.

 

[Chriliman]

Interesting to learn that Jesus isn´t God.

He never claimed to be God, but He did claim to be God's Son, which is true.

 

[quatona]

He never claimed to be God, but He did claim to be God's Son, which is true.

Whatever that means.

 

[lesliedellow]

I have just quickly scrolled down the screen, so I don't know if anybody has mentioned 1 Corinthians, but the relevant NT passage is probably:

All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1 Corinthians 15.39-44)

The chances are that even Paul wasn't clear what he meant by "spiritual body," except that we will not be disembodied spirits floating around in free space.

 

[Chriliman]

Whatever that means.

God met us where we're at and lived among us through His Son Jesus Christ who was perfect because Jesus is God's word made flesh so that we can understand who God really is and what He has done for us.

 

[juvenissun]

Two neighbours have a very different taste of music; and they are annoyed when they must listen to the music the other one is playing at high volume.
Now, in Heaven? How come there are no such sufferings/annoyances?

We can solve this problem today. Use earphone.
It is sure that there are musics in the Heaven. Everyone can listen to his favorite music without using the stupid earphone.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I have just quickly scrolled down the screen, so I don't know if anybody has mentioned 1 Corinthians, but the relevant NT passage is probably:

The chances are that even Paul wasn't clear what he meant by "spiritual body," except that we will not be disembodied spirits floating around in free space.

I do think people are often unaware or ignore that the word which translates as "spiritual" here is never used to mean "not physical", for example when the Apostle speaks of being "spiritual" people vs. carnal people, since those who are "spiritual" are very much physical it can't be understood in a dualistic sense of being against or not the material.

Personally I think in 1 Corinthians 15 the word should probably be translated as Spiritual, with a capital 'S', because I think the indication and implication is that the Holy Spirit is involved (I would point to Romans ch. 8, in particular v. 11). The distinction between the present soma psuchekos (the "soulish" body) and the future soma pneumatikos (the "spiritual" body) has nothing to do with material composition--the stuff of the body--but to do with what drives or quickens the body. N.T. Wright argues that the adjectives here aren't about what things are made of, but what drives or powers them, and uses an analogy by making a distinction between talking about a "wooden boat" and talking about a "sail boat"; a wooden boat is a boat made of wood, but a sail boat isn't a boat made of sails, but rather a boat which is powered by a sail. The body is always flesh, solid, material; the distinction is between being "soulish" (psuchekos) and "spiritual" (pneumatikos). If Paul wanted to contrast materiality with immateriality, he did a pretty poor job, as psuchekos doesn't mean physical or material, but "of the soul" or "soulish"--and it seems pretty obvious that our bodies aren't comprised of "soul stuff" whatever that is, and so the resurrection body isn't made of "spirit stuff" whatever that is.

-CryptoLutheran