The Physical Afterlife

[juvenissun]

Very strange.

This thread is an explicit reaction to Christians denying that the afterlife is "spiritual" and insisting that it is "physical"... and as soon as it opens, it gets filled up with Christians who insist that we cannot say anything about how the afterlife is "physical".

I know that this might be rather difficult to see for you as an individual Christian with a personal worldview, but consider how that appears to a non-Christian. You start a discussion focused on a single point of real Christian theology, and get tons of responses that this isn't Christian theology at all, it is that completely different theology. And no matter how you try to debate that view next, you attract the next set of Christians telling you that that is incorrect as well, it is something else.

We should not only see what people said, but read what the Bible says. Based on that, Christians make interpretations, so can you. For one, the Bible says resurrected Christian HAS a new body.

 

[ViaCrucis]

On what point do you find heresy? For every point I have made is from God and confirmed in the scriptures:


The world was made [a manifestation] out of nothing, and is nothing.

That's heresy. The universe isn't a manifestation, but concrete reality; and it's not nothing, it's something, it's something good, innately and intrinsically good.

The world is passing away.

The present age is passing away, the present order of things is passing away. But creation itself--this good world which God has made--it looks forward to the resurrection of the dead and the renewal of all things in the Age to Come.

A new [spiritual] world is being built.

That new world is this one.

All that God made in the creation was [only] very good...but NOT perfect, and Christ said, not that we would be "very good", but that we would be "perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect." Very good is not enough.

Christ didn't say we would be perfect as the Father is perfect, He said "be perfect, even as your Father is perfect", it is a command not a promise. The promise is that, in Christ, we have hope in the resurrection from the dead. Even as Christ was raised, we shall also be raised, God will give life to our mortal bodies, we will be transformed.

If this world is meaningless, then the Incarnation means nothing, and so Christ's death is meaningless, His resurrection is meaningless, all is at best an illusion, and the Gospel is worthless drivel. And if that's the case, we would all be wise to go find a new religion or do away with religion altogether as it would be far better to be anything other than a Christian.

"If Christ is risen - then nothing else matters.
And if Christ is not risen - then nothing else matters." - Jaroslav Pelikan

-CryptoLutheran

 

[lesliedellow]

I do think people are often unaware or ignore that the word which translates as "spiritual" here is never used to mean "not physical", for example when the Apostle speaks of being "spiritual" people vs. carnal people, since those who are "spiritual" are very much physical it can't be understood in a dualistic sense of being against or not the material.

Personally I think in 1 Corinthians 15 the word should probably be translated as Spiritual, with a capital 'S', because I think the indication and implication is that the Holy Spirit is involved (I would point to Romans ch. 8, in particular v. 11). The distinction between the present soma psuchekos (the "soulish" body) and the future soma pneumatikos (the "spiritual" body) has nothing to do with material composition--the stuff of the body--but to do with what drives or quickens the body. N.T. Wright argues that the adjectives here aren't about what things are made of, but what drives or powers them, and uses an analogy by making a distinction between talking about a "wooden boat" and talking about a "sail boat"; a wooden boat is a boat made of wood, but a sail boat isn't a boat made of sails, but rather a boat which is powered by a sail. The body is always flesh, solid, material; the distinction is between being "soulish" (psuchekos) and "spiritual" (pneumatikos). If Paul wanted to contrast materiality with immateriality, he did a pretty poor job, as psuchekos doesn't mean physical or material, but "of the soul" or "soulish"--and it seems pretty obvious that our bodies aren't comprised of "soul stuff" whatever that is, and so the resurrection body isn't made of "spirit stuff" whatever that is.

-CryptoLutheran

If the ressurection body is to be immortal, it will have to exist in an environment where the laws of physics are different, which implies that the body itself will be fundamentally different.

 

[ViaCrucis]

For one, the Bible says resurrected Christian HAS a new body.

Where does it say "new", and how are you defining "new"?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

If the ressurection body is to be immortal, it will have to exist in an environment where the laws of physics are different, which implies that the body itself will be fundamentally different.

Different, in the same way an oak tree is different from an acorn--but it's still an oak. An acorn will never result in an apple tree or a badger.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[lesliedellow]

Different, in the same way an oak tree is different from an acorn--but it's still an oak. An acorn will never result in an apple tree or a badger.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm not sure that is in any way relevant.

 

[ScottA]

This seems to be the issue. God did not create the world out of nothing. He created the world with His word, His word is not nothing. There was never nothing, there's only ever been God.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher; “Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.”

The old way of things is passing away because it will have served it's purpose that God made it for.

Correct.

Revelation clearly speaks of a new physical heaven and earth where we'll have physical bodies that are imperishable.
Revelation 21:1
"Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

This does not establish such a claim. On the contrary: Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

God is spirit.

Christ also said that only God is good.

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."

"good" and "perfect" both describe God accurately.

What God has created is good for the purposes that He created it for, which is eternal life for His beloved creation. We're just not quite there yet, but we're getting there.

And He is good...but we have NOT been told we will be "good"...but, rather, we have been told we will be "perfect" (as I said). Matthew 5:48

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm not sure that is in any way relevant.

My point is that what is raised is fundamentally connected to what is sown, the Apostle uses the analogy of a seed in his discussion of resurrection in 1 Corinthians, I'm merely expanding upon it.

The body is raised, what is now and dies and is corruptible is raised up. It's transformed, but it's still a raised-up body. Our Lord was pretty clear, at least on one thing, when it comes to the resurrection body, saying, "Feel Me and see, a ghost does not have flesh and bone as I have". Jesus, being flesh and bone, means that the basic "stuff" of the body is the same--so that's not how its different. In the same way that an acorn grows up to become an oak tree, the present body is raised up in the resurrection--it is clearly greater, more glorious, transformed, but it is still connected to what was sown and doesn't becomes something entirely different. It's still a body.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[lesliedellow]

My point is that what is raised is fundamentally connected to what is sown, the Apostle uses the analogy of a seed in his discussion of resurrection in 1 Corinthians, I'm merely expanding upon it.

The body is raised, what is now and dies and is corruptible is raised up. It's transformed, but it's still a raised-up body. Our Lord was pretty clear, at least on one thing, when it comes to the resurrection body, saying, "Feel Me and see, a ghost does not have flesh and bone as I have". Jesus, being flesh and bone, means that the basic "stuff" of the body is the same--so that's not how its different. In the same way that an acorn grows up to become an oak tree, the present body is raised up in the resurrection--it is clearly greater, more glorious, transformed, but it is still connected to what was sown and doesn't becomes something entirely different. It's still a body.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus resurrection was a miracle, and the earthly body he had after the resurrection did not have to be immortal. The case is very different with a body which will need to last for all eternity.

 

[ScottA]

That's heresy. The universe isn't a manifestation, but concrete reality; and it's not nothing, it's something, it's something good, innately and intrinsically good.

The present age is passing away, the present order of things is passing away. But creation itself--this good world which God has made--it looks forward to the resurrection of the dead and the renewal of all things in the Age to Come.

That new world is this one.

Christ didn't say we would be perfect as the Father is perfect, He said "be perfect, even as your Father is perfect", it is a command not a promise. The promise is that, in Christ, we have hope in the resurrection from the dead. Even as Christ was raised, we shall also be raised, God will give life to our mortal bodies, we will be transformed.

If this world is meaningless, then the Incarnation means nothing, and so Christ's death is meaningless, His resurrection is meaningless, all is at best an illusion, and the Gospel is worthless drivel. And if that's the case, we would all be wise to go find a new religion or do away with religion altogether as it would be far better to be anything other than a Christian.

"If Christ is risen - then nothing else matters.
And if Christ is not risen - then nothing else matters." - Jaroslav Pelikan

-CryptoLutheran

It is obvious you don't know the scriptures, science, or what you are talking about.

1. Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? James 4:4
2. For the form of this world is passing away. 1 Corinthians 7:31
3. Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48
4. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. John 6:63
5. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Matthew 28:6
6. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2
7. God is Spirit John 4:24
8. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one John 17:22

 

[Chriliman]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Much debate over what that scripture actually means. Either way, we see the earth has been created but is without form and void for some reason and that's where the debate comes up. Why is it that way? What happened to the earth? Did God create the earth to be formless and and void or did something else cause this dark state and now is God restoring it? Interesting

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Agreed, when God speaks things happen. It is His word that causes creation. Creation did not come from nothing, it came from God's word.

This does not establish such a claim. On the contrary: Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

God is spirit.

What you've bolded there is exactly why I have no desire to debate you over the topic of what we'll be in our glorified state. It has not yet been revealed, so neither you or I actually know.

 

[ScottA]

Much debate over what that scripture actually means. Either way, we see the earth has been created but is without form and void for some reason and that's where the debate comes up. Why is it that way? What happened to the earth? Did God create the earth to be formless and and void or did something else cause this dark state and now is God restoring it? Interesting

"Seeing" is not the test of anything but what God has made manifest. Yet, on the contrary, the scriptures tell us that it is what is unseen that is real.

Agreed, when God speaks things happen. It is His word that causes creation. Creation did not come from nothing, it came from God's word.

God speaking is [how] the world came into being. But what it [was] was devoid of time, space and matter...and now, what it [is] even science will tell you: time is an illusion, space is a void, and matter is actually not matter, but energy.

What you've bolded there is exactly why I have no desire to debate you over the topic of what we'll be in our glorified state. It has not yet been revealed, so neither you or I actually know.

The passage states that the key to "what we shall be" being revealed to us...is in seeing Him "as He is." 1 John 3:2 But I say that it is revealed and that I see Him as He is - whom you will say is right there with you even now and yet is unseen - and you call me a heretic...for saying plainly, what you yourself would say and then contradict.

No sir...I am not a heretic...but you, you are not being honest, even with your own self (If you say that He is with you, but unseen - I am correct).

 

[Chriliman]

"Seeing" is not the test of anything but what God has made manifest. Yet, on the contrary, the scriptures tell us that it is what is unseen that is real.
God speaking is [how] the world came into being. But what it [was] was devoid of time, space and matter...and now, what it [is] even science will tell you: time is an illusion, space is a void, and matter is actually not matter, but energy.
The passage states that the key to "what we shall be" being revealed to us...is in seeing Him "as He is." 1 John 3:2 But I say that it is revealed and that I see Him as He is - whom you will say is right there with you even now and yet is unseen - and you call me a heretic...for saying plainly, what you yourself would say and then contradict.

No sir...I am not a heretic...but you, you are not being honest, even with your own self (If you say that He is with you, but unseen - I am correct).

When did I call you a heretic?

I don't deny that God is Spirit and that His Spirit dwells in me and that I do experience His love in unseen ways, but this does not mean that when He gives me my new glorified body that I will cease to percieve and know things in a similare way that I do now. We won't become God in that state but we will become One with Him and He is preparing a place for us as we speak. What will it be like? I can't say for sure, but now we see through a glass darkly, but then we shall know in full.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Well, I guess if I were omnipotent, I'd have no room for modesty either!

Mr. Kipling called his cakes 'exceedingly good!', but it's hard to think of him as omnipotent

 

[ScottA]

When did I call you a heretic?

I don't deny that God is Spirit and that His Spirit dwells in me and that I do experience His love in unseen ways, but this does not mean that when He gives me my new glorified body that I will cease to percieve and know things in a similare way that I do now. We won't become God in that state but we will become One with Him and He is preparing a place for us as we speak. What will it be like? I can't say for sure, but now we see through a glass darkly, but then we shall know in full.

Sorry that was ViaCrucis...you just "Liked" that he did, and then seemed to pick up where he left off:
ViaCrucis, Today at 4:50 AMReport
#65
Chriliman likes this

Anyway...all is forgiven/forgotten already. May the love of Christ take the place of rebuke. But for the sake of our discussion...the person who is born again of the spirit of God...is with child. From that very moment the Temple mansion is being built, and we may even now walk in it - today...is the day of salvation. So, then, do you "perceive and know things in a similar way?" Yes, indeed! But heaven forbid - not in the same way, but in the spirit - in such a way the flesh cannot even endure - praise God!

 

[Chriliman]

Sorry that was ViaCrucis...you just "Liked" that he did, and then seemed to pick up where he left off:
ViaCrucis, Today at 4:50 AMReport
#65
Chriliman likes this

Anyway...all is forgiven/forgotten already. May the love of Christ take the place of rebuke. But for the sake of our discussion...the person who is born again of the spirit of God...is with child. From that very moment the Temple mansion is being built, and we may even now walk in it - today...is the day of salvation. So, then, do you "perceive and know things in a similar way?" Yes, indeed! But heaven forbid - not in the same way, but in the spirit - in such a way the flesh cannot even endure - praise God!

Agreed. I liked his post because I agreed with a lot of what he said, but not necissarily that you are a heretic. I see truth in what you say, it's just when you start saying this life is an illusion and doesn't really matter that I begin to question where your getting that from. This life has eternal consequences.

 

[juvenissun]

Where does it say "new", and how are you defining "new"?

-CryptoLutheran

New means one which is different from the current. But it is a "body".

 

[DogmaHunter]

Different, in the same way an oak tree is different from an acorn--but it's still an oak. An acorn will never result in an apple tree or a badger.

-CryptoLutheran

No. Different, in the way that there can't be any entropy and decay.
Which means that the physics in such an (imaginary) world would be radically different then the physics in this universe.

By extension, any physical object would be radically different as well, as a it would be submitted to a completely different set of laws of physics.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Much debate over what that scripture actually means. Either way, we see the earth has been created but is without form and void for some reason and that's where the debate comes up. Why is it that way? What happened to the earth? Did God create the earth to be formless and and void or did something else cause this dark state and now is God restoring it? Interesting

The earth, like the other planets, formed out of the accretion disk orbitting our sun when it was a newborn star. And the force that made that happen was gravity.

Agreed, when God speaks things happen. It is His word that causes creation. Creation did not come from nothing, it came from God's word.

"abracadabra"

 

[FireDragon76]

Void in Genesis is the same Hebrew word used to describe a wasteland. It doesn't mean necessarily there was nothing in the beginning, and certainly doesn't support the idea that the universe is a nothing. If anything, the Genesis story echoes the Babylonian story about Marduk slaying Tiamat, who was the goddess of the sea and chaos. Marduk turned Tiamat's body into the sky (a story echoed later in the Bible when it is said that God slew Leviathan, a giant seamonster, at the beginning of the world).

The Genesis story is not a detailed metaphysic or cosmology, it's poetry or myth designed to set the stage for the story of the Hebrew people themselves and their history of covenants with God (because the Genesis story contains the first covenant). We'll have to look elsewhere to round out our theology of creation, and that is what good theologians do.