The Physical Afterlife

[Chriliman]

Very strange.

This thread is an explicit reaction to Christians denying that the afterlife is "spiritual" and insisting that it is "physical"... and as soon as it opens, it gets filled up with Christians who insist that we cannot say anything about how the afterlife is "physical".

I know that this might be rather difficult to see for you as an individual Christian with a personal worldview, but consider how that appears to a non-Christian. You start a discussion focused on a single point of real Christian theology, and get tons of responses that this isn't Christian theology at all, it is that completely different theology. And no matter how you try to debate that view next, you attract the next set of Christians telling you that that is incorrect as well, it is something else.

I think it's because as Christians we're actually suppose to focus on this life before death and do all we can to manifest Gods love here and now. Talking about the afterlife is okay, but not important to this life here and now.

 

[Chesterton]

Very strange.

This thread is an explicit reaction to Christians denying that the afterlife is "spiritual" and insisting that it is "physical"... and as soon as it opens, it gets filled up with Christians who insist that we cannot say anything about how the afterlife is "physical".

I know that this might be rather difficult to see for you as an individual Christian with a personal worldview, but consider how that appears to a non-Christian. You start a discussion focused on a single point of real Christian theology, and get tons of responses that this isn't Christian theology at all, it is that completely different theology. And no matter how you try to debate that view next, you attract the next set of Christians telling you that that is incorrect as well, it is something else.

Well, no, there's really no theology about heaven. There's also no science about "before" the Big Bang or what's "outside" our universe.

Sounds there´s a way of creating a world without suffering and manifestations of "evil" while maintaining "free will". Makes me wonder...

Yes, sounds wonderful, heavenly.

How come?

No internet forums.

Maybe the next Christian tells us that Heaven isn´t really such a great place, to begin with.

Maybe for some it wouldn't be.

 

[Freodin]

I think it's because as Christians we're actually suppose to focus on this life before death and do all we can to manifest Gods love here and now. Talking about the afterlife is okay, but not important to this life here and now.

How nice of you.

Though, I am quite certain, were an unbeliever to start a thread talking about how Christians are supposed to focus on this life instead on the afterlife, within the first hour he would gather a dozen responses from Christians telling him the exact opposite.

 

[Chriliman]

How nice of you.

Though, I am quite certain, were an unbeliever to start a thread talking about how Christians are supposed to focus on this life instead on the afterlife, within the first hour he would gather a dozen responses from Christians telling him the exact opposite.

One way to find out.

My life here and now will have an effect on my eternal life. All the more reason to live like Jesus lived and serve others in loving ways.

 

[GQ Chris]

Yes, after the Intermediate State, there will be a Physical resurrection for both Believers and non-believers. For Believers receive a Glorified body similar to the one Jesus Christ has after His resurrection, a body that won't grow old or die, and will be incorruptable. Non-believers also receive a physical body as well, unfortunately for damnation in Eternity, where they will feel their torment forever.

 

[quatona]

Yes, after the Intermediate State, there will be a Physical resurrection for both Believers and non-believers. For Believers receive a Glorified body similar to the one Jesus Christ has after His resurrection, a body that won't grow old or die, and will be incorruptable.

Which brings me back to the actual question: What could be God´s motive not to equip his creatures with such bodies right away?

Non-believers also receive a physical body as well, unfortunately for damnation in Eternity, where they will feel their torment forever.

Sure.

 

[GQ Chris]

Sure.

I know, not a feel good message is it.

 

[Chriliman]

Which brings me back to the actual question: What could be God´s motive not to equip his creatures with such bodies right away?

Sure.

If all you ever received were brand new things you wouldn't know they're brand new because you'd have no frame of reference for comparing what's new and glorious to what's old and passing away. Eternal life is the continuous renewal of life forever. What passes away is our old sinful nature and death.

 

[Freodin]

If all you ever received were brand new things you wouldn't know they're brand new because you'd have no frame of reference for comparing what's new and glorious to what's old and passing away. Eternal life is the continuous renewal of life forever. What passes away is our old sinful nature and death.

Why would you need such a frame of reference?

 

[timewerx]

The particles we're made of are 99.99 % empty space (maybe)

It's actually much much closer to 100% empty space. We are talking of a lot of nines.

It maybe true we are made entirely of electromagnetic forces and nothing else. When certain electromagnetic forces come together, poof, we have gravity, poof, we have atoms, etc, etc. It's not as simple as that statement but you get the idea.

Almost everything in front of us is of no worth. Our present reality being "physical" is more like a metaphor. It simply isn't, an illusion, maybe.

 

[Chriliman]

Why would you need such a frame of reference?

In order to have appreciation for the one who's giving you new things. If there's no appreciation or thankfulness for a gift then it's not really a gift worth giving.

 

[Freodin]

In order to have appreciation for the one who's giving you new things. If there's no appreciation or thankfulness for a gift then it's not really a gift worth giving.

If that was correct - and I really like to know how you reach that conclusion - why is there a need for a "worth" of a gift?

 

[Chriliman]

If that was correct - and I really like to know how you reach that conclusion - why is there a need for a "worth" of a gift?

I don't know, I guess it doesn't seem that complicated to me. I'm not going to give you something that you'll think is worthless, instead I'll give what I think you'll desire and appreciate. It's called being thoughtful.

 

[ScottA]

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

As I said, you are welcome to post all your ideas about the physical afterlife - and, as far as I am concerned, you are also free to copy/paste whatever you like.
Personally, though, I would be most interested in the "Heaven" part, and even more so in practial matters rather than abstract ones.
We needn´t even get into the the deep problems and troubles we are facing in this physical world.
I´m thinking of mundane things like:
Two neighbours have a very different taste of music; and they are annoyed when they must listen to the music the other one is playing at high volume.
Now, in Heaven? How come there are no such sufferings/annoyances?
Possible solutions I can think of from the top of my head:
- People in Heaven have all the same taste /people in Heaven have no musical preferences
- Heaven is physical but we will have no ears.
- People in Heaven live in isolation cabs.
- In Heaven there are customized spiritual sound-barriers around each person, that either open up only for the sounds the person likes or transform all unwelcome sounds into enjoyable sounds.

I highlighted "the Heaven part" ... because, it should be noted that Revelation 21 is NOT speaking of heaven, but rather what "comes down" from heaven in the new earth.

It is a very interesting consideration...and perhaps too much to bear...but this indicates that the new earth has nothing to do with the "afterlife", but rather with the life of those "in Christ" and of Christ, during His rein on earth - which began the moment He overcame the world and took His place upon the throne.

Likewise, that place at the "right hand" of God...is not in heaven.

 

[Freodin]

I don't know, I guess it doesn't seem that complicated to me. I'm not going to give you something that you'll think is worthless, instead I'll give what I think you'll desire and appreciate. It's called being thoughtful.

So...
... you are NOT giving me something worthless. Instead you give me what I desire and appreciate.

And you think this answers the question why it is necessary to DO give me something worthless, so that I then can desire and appreciate the thing that I desire and appreciate?

Yes, I agree.... totally not complicated.

 

[quatona]

If all you ever received were brand new things you wouldn't know they're brand new because you'd have no frame of reference for comparing what's new and glorious to what's old and passing away.

So it´s about creating something bad so that that which already exists appears good in comparison? And that makes sense to you?

 

[Chriliman]

So...
... you are NOT giving me something worthless. Instead you give me what I desire and appreciate.

And you think this answers the question why it is necessary to DO give me something worthless, so that I then can desire and appreciate the thing that I desire and appreciate?

Yes, I agree.... totally not complicated.

As far as I can tell you're saying the gift of life is worthless...I could not disagree more, but maybe that's not what you're saying.

 

[quatona]

As far as I can tell you're saying the gift of life is worthless...

As far as I can tell that´s what you´ve been saying: That life is worthless, unless/until it is contrasted with something bad.

 

[Freodin]

As far as I can tell you're saying the gift of life is worthless...I could not disagree more, but maybe that's not what you're saying.

As far as I can tell ... it was you who introduced the concept of something "old and passing away" contrasted with "what's new and glorious".
It was also you who introduced the concept of "worthless" contrasted with "desired and appreciated".
And it was you who identified what this "worthless" thing that was "old and passing away" was: "our old sinful nature and death".

So what you were saying - as shown by your posts, in contrast to "as far as I can tell" - was (paraphrased and combined): "You cannot appreciate and desire the new and glorious eternal life until I have given you the worthless old sinful nature and death first".

Which contradicts your post #33.

 

[Chriliman]

As far as I can tell ... it was you who introduced the concept of something "old and passing away" contrasted with "what's new and glorious".
It was also you who introduced the concept of "worthless" contrasted with "desired and appreciated".
And it was you who identified what this "worthless" thing that was "old and passing away" was: "our old sinful nature and death".

So what you were saying - as shown by your posts, in contrast to "as far as I can tell" - was (paraphrased and combined): "You cannot appreciate and desire the new and glorious eternal life until I have given you the worthless old sinful nature and death first".

Which contradicts your post #33.

To simplify what I'm saying - God has given His creation life and has allowed His creation to freely live and make choices, even the choice to disobey Him. His creation has chosen to disobey and as a result sin and death entered in, now God has taken it upon Himself to remove sin and death from His creation so that His creation can have life without sin and death.

The lives were living now are a part of that restoration process that's leading to a new creation where the old way which was caused by disobedient created beings is passing away.