The Physical Afterlife

[ScottA]

Void in Genesis is the same Hebrew word used to describe a wasteland. It doesn't mean necessarily there was nothing in the beginning, and certainly doesn't support the idea that the universe is a nothing. If anything, the Genesis story echoes the Babylonian story about Marduk slaying Tiamat, who was the goddess of the sea and chaos. Marduk turned Tiamat's body into the sky (a story echoed later in the Bible when it is said that God slew Leviathan, a giant seamonster, at the beginning of the world).

The Genesis story is not a detailed metaphysic or cosmology, it's poetry or myth designed to set the stage for the story of the Hebrew people themselves and their history of covenants with God (because the Genesis story contains the first covenant). We'll have to look elsewhere to round out our theology of creation, and that is what good theologians do.

Not true. The creation story is now confirmed by science: Time is an illusion, space is [indeed] a void, and matter is not actually matter as we like to think, but energy.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not true. The creation story is now confirmed by science: Time is an illusion, space is [indeed] a void, and matter is not actually matter as we like to think, but energy.

This sounds more like new age interpretations of science than what an actual scientist would say. Time is measureable using atomic clocks, hardly something illusory. Time, like everything else is of course contigent (but that doesn't make it illusory), but that doesn't point towards belief in Genesis as some kind of scientific account of Creation.

 

[ScottA]

This sounds more like new age interpretations of science than what an actual scientist would say. Time is measureable using atomic clocks, hardly something illusory. Time, like everything else is of course contigent (but that doesn't make it illusory), but that doesn't point towards belief in Genesis as some kind of scientific account of Creation.

Yes, of course - just ask them, and they will undoubtedly agree with themselves!

But...if one has any greater capacity for the big picture, to consider that it just might actually be beyond the scope of current scientific knowledge...then - summarizing their position as I have...is more than generous.

God, nor His kingdom, are "course contingent."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Not true. The creation story is now confirmed by science: Time is an illusion, space is [indeed] a void, and matter is not actually matter as we like to think, but energy.

1) It is true that the word translated as "void" better translates as "waste". The meaning isn't that the earth was nothingness, but that the earth was yet to be shaped, crafted, which is what bara, the word translated as "create" means. Genesis ch. 1 describes the primordial state wherein the earth was not yet shaped, and there existed only the primordial ocean, abyss, or deep over which the Spirit of God hovered; when God creates He takes the unshapen earth and gives it shape, creating the light and separating it from the dark (day and night) and so on and so forth. That's what Genesis 1 says.

2) What you've said is not science. Time is not an illusion, on the contrary time is objectively real and functions as a fourth dimension of space-time. Space isn't a void, even in the seeming nothingness of space there's still something. And that matter, at its smallest, is comprised of subatomic particles.

Genesis 1 isn't a scientific description of anything, that's not its purpose.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

God, nor His kingdom, are "course contingent."

But what about the price of tea in China?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

No. Different, in the way that there can't be any entropy and decay.
Which means that the physics in such an (imaginary) world would be radically different then the physics in this universe.

By extension, any physical object would be radically different as well, as a it would be submitted to a completely different set of laws of physics.

Believe it or not I agree with this; the current understanding of the cosmos would not apply to the future world of Christian eschatology.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ScottA]

1) It is true that the word translated as "void" better translates as "waste". The meaning isn't that the earth was nothingness, but that the earth was yet to be shaped, crafted, which is what bara, the word translated as "create" means. Genesis ch. 1 describes the primordial state wherein the earth was not yet shaped, and there existed only the primordial ocean, abyss, or deep over which the Spirit of God hovered; when God creates He takes the unshapen earth and gives it shape, creating the light and separating it from the dark (day and night) and so on and so forth. That's what Genesis 1 says.

2) What you've said is not science. Time is not an illusion, on the contrary time is objectively real and functions as a fourth dimension of space-time. Space isn't a void, even in the seeming nothingness of space there's still something. And that matter, at its smallest, is comprised of subatomic particles.

Genesis 1 isn't a scientific description of anything, that's not its purpose.

-CryptoLutheran

Of which I explained:

But...if one has any greater capacity for the big picture, to consider that it just might actually be beyond the scope of current scientific knowledge...then - summarizing their position as I have...is more than generous.

Besides...your own explanation does not account for the fact that God, not only created the earth, but created all. There is a limit to the claim or logic (scientific or otherwise) of preexistence. On the contrary, if I refer to God, I am not wrong.

 

[zippy2006]

Very strange.

This thread is an explicit reaction to Christians denying that the afterlife is "spiritual" and insisting that it is "physical"... and as soon as it opens, it gets filled up with Christians who insist that we cannot say anything about how the afterlife is "physical".

I know that this might be rather difficult to see for you as an individual Christian with a personal worldview, but consider how that appears to a non-Christian. You start a discussion focused on a single point of real Christian theology, and get tons of responses that this isn't Christian theology at all, it is that completely different theology. And no matter how you try to debate that view next, you attract the next set of Christians telling you that that is incorrect as well, it is something else.

It's really not strange at all if you understand a small bit about Christianity (and apparently few atheists here do).

Why do Christians believe in a material afterlife? Because Christ rose from the dead, thus verifying in an unexpected way the eschatological fact of the resurrection of the dead. What do Christians know about existence after the resurrection? Very little. Christ's own interactions with the (present) material world were very mysterious and the scriptures do not give any significant indication about the nature of that state of existence.

Your confusion comes in conflating the two questions of whether something is, and what something is.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Very strange.

This thread is an explicit reaction to Christians denying that the afterlife is "spiritual" and insisting that it is "physical"... and as soon as it opens, it gets filled up with Christians who insist that we cannot say anything about how the afterlife is "physical".

I know that this might be rather difficult to see for you as an individual Christian with a personal worldview, but consider how that appears to a non-Christian. You start a discussion focused on a single point of real Christian theology, and get tons of responses that this isn't Christian theology at all, it is that completely different theology. And no matter how you try to debate that view next, you attract the next set of Christians telling you that that is incorrect as well, it is something else.

You're observing what is, in some sense, a theological crisis in modern Christianity. In brief if one were to look at the historical teachings of mainstream Christian churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, etc), look at their confessions, look at the historic Creeds (the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, etc), and the writings of Christian teachers and theologians throughout history one will notice that the emphasis is on the resurrection of the body.

I don't expect necessarily a thorough reading of what follows, I only aim here to demonstrate the historical teaching of the Christian Church:

"The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one," and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," Ephesians 6:12 and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory." - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Ch. 10.1, circa 190 CE

"When each of them to be baptized has gone down into the water, the one baptizing shall lay hands on each of them, asking, "Do you believe in God the Father Almighty?" And the one being baptized shall answer, "I believe." He shall then baptize each of them once, laying his hand upon each of their heads. Then he shall ask, "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and died, and rose on the third day living from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of the Father, the one coming to judge the living and the dead?" When each has answered, "I believe," he shall baptize a second time. Then he shall ask, "Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Church and the resurrection of the flesh?" Then each being baptized shall answer, "I believe." And thus let him baptize the third time." - St. Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Traditions 21:12-18, circa 200 CE

"I believe in God the Father almighty;
and in Christ Jesus His only Son, our Lord,
Who was born from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary,
Who under Pontius Pilate was crucified and buried,
on the third day rose again from the dead,
ascended to heaven,
sits at the right hand of the Father,
whence He will come to judge the living and the dead;
and in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Church,
the remission of sins,
the resurrection of the flesh" - Old Roman Symbol, 3rd or 4th century

"I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic and apostolic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the flesh,
and the life everlasting. Amen." - Apostles' Creed, ~7th century

"They who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh; giving as their reason that it is impossible that what is corrupted and dissolved should be restored to the same as it had been. And besides the impossibility, they say that the salvation of the flesh is disadvantageous; and they abuse the flesh, adducing its infirmities, and declare that it only is the cause of our sins, so that if the flesh, say they, rise again, our infirmities also rise with it. And such sophistical reasons as the following they elaborate: If the flesh rise again, it must rise either entire and possessed of all its parts, or imperfect. But its rising imperfect argues a want of power on God's part, if some parts could be saved, and others not; but if all the parts are saved, then the body will manifestly have all its members. But is it not absurd to say that these members will exist after the resurrection from the dead, since the Saviour said, "They neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but shall be as the angels in heaven?" Mark 12:25 And the angels, say they, have neither flesh, nor do they eat, nor have sexual intercourse; therefore there shall be no resurrection of the flesh. By these and such like arguments, they attempt to distract men from the faith. And there are some who maintain that even Jesus Himself appeared only as spiritual, and not in flesh, but presented merely the appearance of flesh: these persons seek to rob the flesh of the promise. First, then, let us solve those things which seem to them to be insoluble; then we will introduce in an orderly manner the demonstration concerning the flesh, proving that it partakes of salvation." - St. Justin, On the Resurrection, ch. 2, c. 150 CE

"For this body shall be raised not remaining weak as now; but raised the very same body, though by putting on incorruption it shall be fashioned anew —as iron blending with fire becomes fire, or rather as He knows how, the Lord who raises us. This body therefore shall be raised, but it shall abide not such as it now is, but an eternal body; no longer needing for its life such nourishment as now, nor stairs for its ascent, for it shall be made spiritual, a marvellous thing, such as we cannot worthily speak of." - St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Lecture 18.18, 350 CE

"Moreover, the Son of God has assumed this human nature, however, without sin, and therefore not a foreign, but our own flesh, into the unity of His person, and according to it is become our true Brother. Heb. 2:14: Forasmuch, then, as the children were partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same. Again, 16; 4:15: He took not on Him the nature of angels, but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, yet without sin. In like manner Christ has also redeemed it as His work, sanctifies it as His work, raises it from the dead, and gloriously adorns it as His work. But original sin He has not created, assumed, redeemed, sanctified; nor will He raise it, will neither adorn nor save it in the elect, but in the [blessed] resurrection it will be entirely destroyed." - The Lutheran Confessions (Book of Concord), Epitome of the Formula of Concord, Article I, 1577 CE

"We firmly believe, and hence we hope that, just as Christ is truly risen from the dead and lives for ever, so after death the righteous will live for ever with the risen Christ and he will raise them up on the last day.534 Our resurrection, like his own, will be the work of the Most Holy Trinity:
If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit who dwells in you.

The term "flesh" refers to man in his state of weakness and mortality. The "resurrection of the flesh" (the literal formulation of the Apostles' Creed) means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our "mortal body" will come to life again.

Belief in the resurrection of the dead has been an essential element of the Christian faith from its beginnings. "The confidence of Christians is the resurrection of the dead; believing this we live."" - Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 989-991, 1992 CE

"I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption: but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them: the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies. And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges none.

II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever.

III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor: the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honor; and be made conformable to His own glorious body." - Westminster Confession, XXXII, 1646 CE

If nothing else, this short clip of retired Anglican bishop, N.T. Wright, should be informative:

-CryptoLutheran