The Physical Afterlife

[quatona]

A couple of days ago I posted a thread in which I used the premise that the afterlife is non-physical [http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-problem-of-a-missing-motive.7942518/].

Much to my surprise a lot of Christians there told me that this premise doesn´t accurately represent their Christian view, and that the afterlife is actually physical. They were disappointed that that thread wasn´t about their theology.

So - for fairness´ sake and in order to avoid permanent derailments of the other thread: this thread is for them (or you, if you are one of them). You can elaborate here on the physical afterlife to your hearts´ desire. Feel free to tell us how it works, what it´s like, how it´s similar to this physical life, how it´s different, what causes those differences, how problem in this physical life aren´t problems in heaven etc.etc.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal. He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement. The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Colter]

In the Urantia Book it's called a Morontia form, It's the same form Jesus returned in after the death of his human tabernacle. When the sleeping survivors awakes on one of the Mansion worlds, he or she is in possession of a new body, a new form. It's part material, part spirit. As we make our way inward on our journey to our paradise meeting with the Universal Father, from translation to translation, from world to world, we become increasingly spiritual.



"In the inner experience of man, mind is joined to matter. Such material-linked minds cannot survive mortal death. The technique of survival is embraced in those adjustments of the human will and those transformations in the mortal mind whereby such a God-conscious intellect gradually becomes spirit taught and eventually spirit led. This evolution of the human mind from matter association to spirit union results in the transmutation of the potentially spirit phases of the mortal mind into the morontia realities of the immortal soul. Mortal mind subservient to matter is destined to become increasingly material and consequently to suffer eventual personality extinction; mind yielded to spirit is destined to become increasingly spiritual and ultimately to achieve oneness with the surviving and guiding divine spirit and in this way to attain survival and eternity of personality existence." UB 1955

 

[quatona]

As I said, you are welcome to post all your ideas about the physical afterlife - and, as far as I am concerned, you are also free to copy/paste whatever you like.
Personally, though, I would be most interested in the "Heaven" part, and even more so in practial matters rather than abstract ones.
We needn´t even get into the the deep problems and troubles we are facing in this physical world.
I´m thinking of mundane things like:
Two neighbours have a very different taste of music; and they are annoyed when they must listen to the music the other one is playing at high volume.
Now, in Heaven? How come there are no such sufferings/annoyances?
Possible solutions I can think of from the top of my head:
- People in Heaven have all the same taste /people in Heaven have no musical preferences
- Heaven is physical but we will have no ears.
- People in Heaven live in isolation cabs.
- In Heaven there are customized spiritual sound-barriers around each person, that either open up only for the sounds the person likes or transform all unwelcome sounds into enjoyable sounds.

 

[Chesterton]

quatona, I don't know if you've ever done any light (or heavy) reading in physics, but can I just remind you that not a single person alive on planet earth has the slightest idea what we are or what we're doing here. The particles we're made of are 99.99 % empty space (maybe) and the behavior of particles defy our logic and intuition. Mass and energy are interchangeable, no one knows what consciousness is, and no one knows if anything's real. No one can even define words like "natural" and "supernatural" and "physical" and "spiritual" without using arbitrary set-up definitions.

So do you realize what you're asking? I don't think anyone can realize what you're asking.

 

[quatona]

quatona, I don't know if you've ever done any light (or heavy) reading in physics,

Light reading at most, and on top I have forgotten most of it.

but can I just remind you that not a single person alive on planet earth has the slightest idea what we are or what we're doing here.

Ok.

The particles we're made of are 99.99 % empty space (maybe) and the behavior of particles defy our logic and intuition.

Ok.

Mass and energy are interchangeable, no one knows what consciousness is, and no one knows if anything's real.

Ok.

No one can even define words like "natural" and "supernatural" and "physical" and "spiritual" without using arbitrary set-up definitions.

Ok, so I guess I better ignore people whose world views are circled around these distinctions.

So do you realize what you're asking?

Sure, I was the one asking the question, after all.

I don't think anyone can realize what you're asking.

Ok, so your post is just a wordy version of "I don´t know"?

 

[Chesterton]

Ok, so your post is just a wordy version of "I don´t know"?

Of course I don't know, but the post means that if we humans don't know anything about what we are and where we are now even while we experience it, how could any of us possibly describe a different state of being that we don't experience? And the fact that we can't describe another state of being should not be taken as evidence that another state doesn't exist. In fact, we do have hints that other states do.

 

[quatona]

Of course I don't know, but the post means that if we humans don't know anything about what we are and where we are now even while we experience it,

Well, we do know a lot about this physical world. We even know about "natural laws", we can predict stuff safely, we can exclude stuff safely, and we hear that people call things "miracles" or "supernatural" exactly for the reason that they do not align with those laws.
So it´s not like we are totally clueless as to how the physical world works.

how could any of us possibly describe a different state of being that we don't experience?

If you can´t describe physical Heaven and how it differs from our earthy physical existence, then don´t. I don´t think there´s anything wrong with saying "I don´t know". I do it all the time.
I created this thread for those who wanted to talk about this. It was an offer, not a challenge. You are under no pressure to respond.

However, if you actually want to respond to what I am wondering about, feel free to take a look at post #4. I promise, it´s not about the behaviour of particles or "who we are".

And the fact that we can't describe another state of being should not be taken as evidence that another state doesn't exist.

Did anyone jump to that conclusion?

 

[Chesterton]

Well, we do know a lot about this physical world. We even know about "natural laws", we can predict stuff safely, we can exclude stuff safely, and we hear that people call things "miracles" or "supernatural" exactly for the reason that they do not align with those laws.
So it´s not like we are totally clueless as to how the physical world works.

Don't want to derail, but there may or may not be any "laws". The universe has been around a very long time, conscious minds have been around a relatively very short time to observe it. We see cause and effect and we see things repeat, but there's no guarantee they always have to.

However, if you actually want to respond to what I am wondering about, feel free to take a look at post #4. I promise, it´s not about the behaviour of particles or "who we are".

Cooking dinner. I'll try and look at it shortly.

Did anyone jump to that conclusion?

It was just a friendly reminder.

 

[Chesterton]

As I said, you are welcome to post all your ideas about the physical afterlife - and, as far as I am concerned, you are also free to copy/paste whatever you like.
Personally, though, I would be most interested in the "Heaven" part, and even more so in practial matters rather than abstract ones.
We needn´t even get into the the deep problems and troubles we are facing in this physical world.
I´m thinking of mundane things like:
Two neighbours have a very different taste of music; and they are annoyed when they must listen to the music the other one is playing at high volume.
Now, in Heaven? How come there are no such sufferings/annoyances?
Possible solutions I can think of from the top of my head:
- People in Heaven have all the same taste /people in Heaven have no musical preferences
- Heaven is physical but we will have no ears.
- People in Heaven live in isolation cabs.
- In Heaven there are customized spiritual sound-barriers around each person, that either open up only for the sounds the person likes or transform all unwelcome sounds into enjoyable sounds.

Well that scenario's easy enough to solve even here on Earth. Do what I do and don't play your music at high volume, and I'm sure people in heaven are a lot nicer than me.

But if there's a conflict and the one person really wants the music loud then I think your first and second solutions could be okay. Similar to your last one it could also be that the laws of physics conform to each person's needs automatically so the person who doesn't want to hear it simply doesn't, but can still hear other things, so it's as if there's a filter.

As I indicated, I don't really have any other things to say, other than I remember something where C.S. Lewis mentioned a different physics here on earth, where say, you got mad at someone and wanted to hit them with a wooden stick. The wood would behave as if it were soft if you tried to do something bad like that, but would remain hard if you wanted to do something else, like build a chair with wood. But I don't think people would get mad in heaven, but that would work for accidents too, like if you fell of a cliff the ground could behave as if it were soft when you landed. For what it's worth...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...I don't think people would get mad in heaven, but that would work for accidents too, like if you fell of a cliff the ground could behave as if it were soft when you landed. For what it's worth...

Losing risk altogether would kind of take some of the excitement out of life...

 

[Chesterton]

Losing risk altogether would kind of take some of the excitement out of life...

Yeah there's that. I'm sure it varies from person to person, and I used to like risk when I was younger, don't care for it much at all these days.

 

[Chriliman]

This is like two twin fetus' trying to comprehend the world outside the womb. They don't have the capacity to even comprehend it and neither do we have the capacity to comprehend the reality beyond our subjective human realities. Just one way to think about it in order to comprehend how utterly clueless we really are.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I'm no expert on theology, but I think 'the Kingdom of God' was something that was supposed to happen, in the physical world, within the lifespans of those who were contemporaries of Jesus. It's only that it didn't happen that this has been pushed off into the non-physical afterlife in the minds of many Christians.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This is like two twin fetus' trying to comprehend the world outside the womb. They don't have the capacity to even comprehend it and neither do we have the capacity to comprehend the reality beyond our subjective human realities. Just one way to think about it in order to comprehend how utterly clueless we really are.

I don't think fetuses can comprehend the inside of the womb...so I don't know where you're going with this.

 

[Freodin]

Very strange.

This thread is an explicit reaction to Christians denying that the afterlife is "spiritual" and insisting that it is "physical"... and as soon as it opens, it gets filled up with Christians who insist that we cannot say anything about how the afterlife is "physical".

I know that this might be rather difficult to see for you as an individual Christian with a personal worldview, but consider how that appears to a non-Christian. You start a discussion focused on a single point of real Christian theology, and get tons of responses that this isn't Christian theology at all, it is that completely different theology. And no matter how you try to debate that view next, you attract the next set of Christians telling you that that is incorrect as well, it is something else.

 

[quatona]

As I indicated, I don't really have any other things to say, other than I remember something where C.S. Lewis mentioned a different physics here on earth, where say, you got mad at someone and wanted to hit them with a wooden stick. The wood would behave as if it were soft if you tried to do something bad like that, but would remain hard if you wanted to do something else, like build a chair with wood.

Sounds there´s a way of creating a world without suffering and manifestations of "evil" while maintaining "free will". Makes me wonder...

But I don't think people would get mad in heaven,

How come?

but that would work for accidents too, like if you fell of a cliff the ground could behave as if it were soft when you landed. For what it's worth...

Which, of course, brings me back to my original question:
What´s the point in creating an intermediate state that comes with countless problems you won´t have to deal with for the rest of your eternal life.
I do understand why learning to deal with all those hassles once we have this world - I do not understand what purpose creating such a world serves when we have to learn for an entirely different world.

 

[quatona]

Very strange.

This thread is an explicit reaction to Christians denying that the afterlife is "spiritual" and insisting that it is "physical"... and as soon as it opens, it gets filled up with Christians who insist that we cannot say anything about how the afterlife is "physical".

I know that this might be rather difficult to see for you as an individual Christian with a personal worldview, but consider how that appears to a non-Christian. You start a discussion focused on a single point of real Christian theology, and get tons of responses that this isn't Christian theology at all, it is that completely different theology. And no matter how you try to debate that view next, you attract the next set of Christians telling you that that is incorrect as well, it is something else.

Maybe the next Christian tells us that Heaven isn´t really such a great place, to begin with.

 

[quatona]

This is like two twin fetus' trying to comprehend the world outside the womb. They don't have the capacity to even comprehend it and neither do we have the capacity to comprehend the reality beyond our subjective human realities. Just one way to think about it in order to comprehend how utterly clueless we really are.

I´m wondering why you picked "two twin fetusses trying to comprehend", for your analogy.
A single fetus would have done, no?

There´s nothing wrong with an honest "I don´t know".
A theology, however, that creates huge and complex explanations yet reliably ends up with "It´s incomprehensible" at crucial points, actually doesn´t explain anything.
But what´s even worse:
When theology gives one explanation (e.g. "suffering/evil must exist because of 'free will'") and at another occasion gives explanations that totally contradict the first explanation (e.g. describing a way how there can be a world with "free will" but without suffering/evil).

 

[jayem]

Different Christians have differing afterlife beliefs. IIRC, Mormons (who some people don't think are Christian) believe there are 3 levels of heaven, all of a spiritual nature.

Just FWIW: By far, the most detailed and interesting view of Heaven was Dante's version. His Paradise was 9 physical spheres surrounding the Earth, each corresponding to a celestial body. (Like the Sun, Venus, Mars, etc.) I think the Moon was the first level. And surrounding these was the spiritual realm where God and Jesus resided, along with those souls rewarded with the highest degree of glory. I'm sure this was Dante's own creation, and wasn't official RC doctrine. It's a very cool combination of Christianity, astrology, and classical mythology. Been a long time since I've read it.