The Physical Afterlife

[Picky Picky]

To simplify what I'm saying - God has given His creation life and has allowed His creation to freely live and make choices, even the choice to disobey Him. His creation has chosen to disobey and as a result sin and death entered in, now God has taken it upon Himself to remove sin and death from His creation so that His creation can have life without sin and death.

The lives were living now are a part of that restoration process that's leading to a new creation where the old way which was caused by disobedient created beings is passing away.

If that choice to disobey was in Eden, this restoration process is taking a heck of a long time. What's the delay, I wonder?

 

[Chriliman]

If that choice to disobey was in Eden, this restoration process is taking a heck of a long time. What's the delay, I wonder?

Good question. I think the answer is that the choice to disobey is still possible and forgiveness for disobedience and the penalty of death is only through Christ, but many have not come to Christ and some are falling away, the end is nearing as a result.

 

[Picky Picky]

Good question. I think the answer is that the choice to disobey is still possible and forgiveness for disobedience and the penalty of death is only through Christ, but many have not come to Christ and some are falling away, the end is nearing as a result.

Right. Do I understand that God "taking upon Himself to remove sin and death from His creation" is his intervention through the Incarnation? And that, although the choice to disobey is still possible, there is still the possibility of forgiveness through Christ, and that God has been waiting for everyone to accept that, at which point sin and death would be removed? And that, obviously, has not happened, and therefore "the end is nearing as a result"? Why is the end nearing as a result, and what is that end? And what would have been the end if we had all sought forgiveness so that sin and death were removed?

 

[Chriliman]

Right. Do I understand that God "taking upon Himself to remove sin and death from His creation" is his intervention through the Incarnation?

Correct and now Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God until all Christ's enemies are put at His feet, including death.

And that, although the choice to disobey is still possible, there is still the possibility of forgiveness through Christ, and that God has been waiting for everyone to accept that, at which point sin and death would be removed?

Sin and death will be removed whether you accept Christ or not, what specifically happens to someone who doesn't accept Christ is unknown, we do know it will be unpleasant for them, but whether they're tormented forever or destroyed into nonexistence, I don't know. I do know my old self and it's sinful desires is being destroyed as I look to Christ for guidance and renewal of my mind heart and soul.

And that, obviously, has not happened, and therefore "the end is nearing as a result"? Why is the end nearing as a result, and what is that end? And what would have been the end if we had all sought forgiveness so that sin and death were removed?

For each individual, the end is physical death and this is when eternal life is fully realized for those in Christ. For creation as a whole, the end could be at any time, but only God the Father knows when it will happen and when it does happen, a new imperishable creation will be ushered in to replace the old that's passing away.

 

[BryanMaloney]

If that choice to disobey was in Eden, this restoration process is taking a heck of a long time. What's the delay, I wonder?

What delay? Perhaps our perspective of "time" is flawed.

 

[Picky Picky]

Correct and now Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God until all Christ's enemies are put at His feet, including death.



Sin and death will be removed whether you accept Christ or not, what specifically happens to someone who doesn't accept Christ is unknown, we do know it will be unpleasant for them, but whether they're tormented forever or destroyed into nonexistence, I don't know. I do know my old self and it's sinful desires is being destroyed as I look to Christ for guidance and renewal of my mind heart and soul.



For each individual, the end is physical death and this is when eternal life is fully realized for those in Christ. For creation as a whole, the end could be at any time, but only God the Father knows when it will happen and when it does happen, a new imperishable creation will be ushered in to replace the old that's passing away.

This seems a little muddled to me. Can I try again? What does this mean:

Good question. I think the answer is that the choice to disobey is still possible and forgiveness for disobedience and the penalty of death is only through Christ, but many have not come to Christ and some are falling away, the end is nearing as a result.

 

[Picky Picky]

What delay? Perhaps our perspective of "time" is flawed.

What does that mean? Do you mean the business in Eden was not at least some thousands of years ago by the Ussher count?

 

[BryanMaloney]

What does that mean? Do you mean the business in Eden was not at least some thousands of years ago by the Ussher count?

Nope, just that whether or not this is a "long" time is a matter of perspective. Is a mile a "long" distance? Is an inch a "long" distance? If you're a bacterium, an inch is a long distance.

 

[Picky Picky]

Nope, just that whether or not this is a "long" time is a matter of perspective. Is a mile a "long" distance? Is an inch a "long" distance? If you're a bacterium, an inch is a long distance.

Well, that's all very true. Not very helpful, but very true.

 

[Chriliman]

This seems a little muddled to me. Can I try again? What does this mean:

You can certainly try to understand and I'm glad you are trying

What specifically doesn't make sense to you?

 

[Picky Picky]

You can certainly try to understand and I'm glad you are trying

What specifically doesn't make sense to you?

You say God has decided to remove sin and death from creation by intervening through the Incarnation. But then you say this hasn't worked out because it is still possible to disobey. But that ability to disobey is inherent in this creation (because of free will) so obviously the possibility still exists, so God's plan is not coherent.

Then you say many have not come to Christ, indeed many have fallen away, so the end is nearing. Why does this mean the end is nearing, and how do you match that with your statement that no-one knows when the end will come?

 

[Chriliman]

You say God has decided to remove sin and death from creation by intervening through the Incarnation.

When Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, He made a new way and continues to help us to come to God.

But then you say this hasn't worked out because it is still possible to disobey.

I didn't say it hasn't worked out, I did say that it's still in progress from a personal individual perspective. From God's perspective, everything is under control and life is flourishing as originally intended, despite man's disobedience and rejection of God's life giving power.

But that ability to disobey is inherent in this creation (because of free will) so obviously the possibility still exists, so God's plan is not coherent.

From a personal individual perspective, God's plan can seem very incoherent. But is this because the plan is actually incoherent or because we lack understanding and refuse to honestly ask Him?

Then you say many have not come to Christ, indeed many have fallen away, so the end is nearing. Why does this mean the end is nearing, and how do you match that with your statement that no-one knows when the end will come?

Honestly, people have been saying the end is near for a very long time. At this point I have no idea if it's actually near, I just trust what God's word says in regards to the current times and He tells us to always be awake and ready, so that's what I try to do

 

[Picky Picky]

When Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, He made a new way and continues to help us to come to God.



I didn't say it hasn't worked out, I did say that it's still in progress from a personal individual perspective. From God's perspective, everything is under control and life is flourishing as originally intended, despite man's disobedience and rejection of God's life giving power.



From a personal individual perspective, God's plan can seem very incoherent. But is this because the plan is actually incoherent or because we lack understanding and refuse to honestly ask Him?



Honestly, people have been saying the end is near for a very long time. At this point I have no idea if it's actually near, I just trust what God's word says in regards to the current times and He tells us to always be awake and ready, so that's what I try to do

Fine. I follow all of that.

 

[quatona]

To simplify what I'm saying - God has given His creation life and has allowed His creation to freely live and make choices, even the choice to disobey Him. His creation has chosen to disobey and as a result sin and death entered in, now God has taken it upon Himself to remove sin and death from His creation so that His creation can have life without sin and death.

The lives were living now are a part of that restoration process that's leading to a new creation where the old way which was caused by disobedient created beings is passing away.

So in this new world we won´t have this great "freedom to disobey" that was so important to your God?

 

[Dre Khipov]

If God exists and functions, then the distinction of "physical" vs "spiritual" is a moot, since God would be the ultimate reality with everything else being a simulacrum.

Likewise, in such reality the concept of "free will" would likewise be a moot, since there is no free will in simulated "created and directed" reality. Free will, or perhaps the illusion of it, lies in some degree of uncertainty in which one would have a choice to make in light of some uncertainty. When everything is certain and known in a reality that's created (simulated) by the ultimate being - there is no uncertainty... everything is simply a complex computer game.

I'm not sure why such version would seem more special than that of an accidental Universe that resulted in complexity that functions consciously. Would you rather be a complex accident, or a game piece?

 

[quatona]

If God exists and functions, then the distinction of "physical" vs "spiritual" is a moot, since God would be the ultimate reality with everything else being a simulacrum.

Likewise, in such reality the concept of "free will" would likewise be a moot, since there is no free will in simulated "created and directed" reality. Free will, or perhaps the illusion of it, lies in some degree of uncertainty in which one would have a choice to make in light of some uncertainty. When everything is certain and known in a reality that's created (simulated) by the ultimate being - there is no uncertainty... everything is simply a complex computer game.

I'm not sure why such version would seem more special than that of an accidental Universe that resulted in complexity that functions consciously.

"More special"? It adds an unparsimonous assumption, and it doesn´t explain anything better than the parsimonous version does. Instead, it raises a lot of unanswered questions.

Would you rather be a complex accident, or a game piece?

The question what I´d rather be is completely irrelevant., to begin with.
But since you asked: When facing calamities I find it easier to deal with them knowing that they just so happened by accident - as opposed to knowing that someone intentionally subjected me to them. In the latter case I will surely spend some time asking myself what the motive of the person might be - and I will not be satisfied with "It must be beyond my comprehension".

 

[Chriliman]

So in this new world we won´t have this great "freedom to disobey" that was so important to your God?

I don't know. It could be that we will still have that freedom, but that we'll never have a desire to disobey God because we'll have gained advanced knowledge and understanding of God's will and see that it is the only way to keep life and happiness forever.

 

[Tree of Life]

A couple of days ago I posted a thread in which I used the premise that the afterlife is non-physical [http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-problem-of-a-missing-motive.7942518/].

Much to my surprise a lot of Christians there told me that this premise doesn´t accurately represent their Christian view, and that the afterlife is actually physical. They were disappointed that that thread wasn´t about their theology.

So - for fairness´ sake and in order to avoid permanent derailments of the other thread: this thread is for them (or you, if you are one of them). You can elaborate here on the physical afterlife to your hearts´ desire. Feel free to tell us how it works, what it´s like, how it´s similar to this physical life, how it´s different, what causes those differences, how problem in this physical life aren´t problems in heaven etc.etc.

No one will be able to tell you about these things with any authoritative certainty. The Scriptures don't use the expression "afterlife" ([bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], what an awful word...). The Scriptures affirm that, by virtue of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, all believers will undergo a physical resurrection like his and the physical world will be renewed in such a way that all the negative affects of the fall (pain, sickness, death, etc) will be removed.

No one knows how this will work. We don't believe it because we understand the mechanics and think it makes sense. We believe it because it happened to Jesus. If a person can explain, mechanically speaking, what happened in the resurrection of Jesus I suppose they could explain the rest as well.

 

[Tree of Life]

Interestingly, though, Paul does deal with this question. It seems it was being asked in his day as well. He deals with it in 1 Corinthians 15:35-38. His point seems to be that our bodies, while they will be real bodies, will be different. Different in what way? He compares our current bodies with our bodies that we will receive like this:

1. Perishable vs imperishable
2. Dishonorable vs glorious (I think here the "dishonorable" means that our current bodies are subject to decay - they return to the dirt)
3. Weak vs powerful
4. Natural vs spiritual (spiritual does not mean non-physical here)

 

[FireDragon76]

Traditional Christian consensus is actually rather vague about the afterlife, and anything beyond that little bit is speculation.

The resurrection of the dead is about continuity with this world, that in fact, this life matters (and thus making sin all the more tragic). As biblical scholar N.T. Wright has in the past few decades pointed out, the biblical hope common to many Jews and Christians is for a renewed creation where things are set right, not for an otherworldly existence.

Now, why would some Christians focus instead on "this world is not my home?" I suppose it is due to certain gnostic tendencies in some strains of Protestantism, to deny or ignore the physicality of God's incarnation in Jesus Christ implicitly. The incarnation as theology is not necessarily central to all self-described Christians, and as a consequence, the resurrection takes on a decidedly different emphasis.