• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Law loses again..God must be angry!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Blood Bought 1953, Dec 4, 2017.

Tags:
  1. eleos1954

    eleos1954 Member Supporter

    209
    +108
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    ****

    "Jesus was a Jew", most importantly Jesus was God incarnate as you stated.

    John 1
    14 And the Word (Gods eternal words) became flesh and dwelt among us (Jesus), and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jesus is the embodiment of the Law i.e. 10 commandments

    You are aware that The Law refers to the first 5 books of scripture?

    There are 2 separate sets of laws. Both of which are described in the OT. The 10 commandments, Gods Moral eternal laws .... and the Cerimonial/Sacrificial Law done away with on the cross.

    Jesus was a Jew, born under the Law. Yes, and until Jesus was crucified, the "Laws of moses", i.e. the sacrificial/cerimonial and the Moral laws were both in effect.

    What does “Fulfill” mean to you?

    Here is what the Greek definition of fulfill means.

    NAS Exhaustive Concordance
    Word Origin
    from plérés
    Definition
    to make full, to complete

    The Mosaic Laws = Cerimonial/Sacrificial Laws

    Jesus, being the final sacrifice made continuance of the Mosaic Law unnecessary he was the final sacrifice. His death "completed"/ fulfilled the Mosaic laws.

    The Moral Law - 10 Commandments

    Matthew 5

    17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    Again - fulfill - complete them

    Jesus did not sin - i.e. sin = transgression of the moral law, therefore completed them.
    But this does not mean He made the moral law non-existent or irrelevant.

    We humans are unable to keep the Moral Law but that does not mean that the Moral Law no longer exists .... this is why Jesus died for us so that His righteous (fulfillment/completion of the Moral Law) may be imputed unto those who believe and have accepted Him and may receive salvation. It is not by our works .... it is by His works imputed unto us, by the shedding of his blood, The covering of His blood allows us to stand before God as blameless. Amen.

    Romans 3

    Righteousness Through Faith - and regarding "Jews"

    We are all children of God

    Galatians 3

    27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek (used referring to Gentiles), there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

    21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

    Matthew 5

    17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill (complete) them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    God Bless.
     
  2. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

    +2,383
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Uh, forgiveness is a part of God's commands or laws.

    Jesus commanded us,
    ". "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions." Matthew 6:14-15.

    Love and or compassion is a part of the 2nd greatest commandment to love your neighbor.

    Even believing on Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23).

    For the Spirit will reprove the world of sin because they believe not on Jesus (John 16:8-9).

    Believing on Jesus includes believing in everything He commanded of us. If not, then we are following another Jesus. For Jesus says, why do you call me, Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say?

    Also, to have the blood of Jesus applied to our lives, we have to walk in the light as He [Christ] is in the light (1 John 1:7).

    When Paul talks about not being under the Law, he is referring to the Law of Moses given to israel that included many ceremonial laws like circumcision, etc. But after Christ's death, the New Covenant began (which also included new laws).

    For Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
    So law is not bad or evil; And obedience to God's laws do not make Him angry.
    That is silly.
    Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  3. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

    +470
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Leviticus 13 deals with cases of leprosy. A person found to be leprous was determined to be unclean. He/she was not admitted into the camp. If a garment was found to contain leprosy it was burned.

    If a person touched an unclean person, he was legally unclean (Leviticus 15:27).

    The Talmudic tractates contain much text about Jewish commentary and specific observance of the law. Some of its references date from before the time of Christ's ministry on earth. It was codified in the third century. The Jews outlawed touching people or things they deemed to be unclean. They did not even want to touch things that had touched unclean things. A Jew did not venture into a Gentile's house for fear of being made unclean.

    A house found to be leprous (moldy) was replastered or torn down (Leviticus 14).

    John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses. Grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

    Christ supersedes the law.
     
  4. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

    249
    +142
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    This is not accurate. Per Ancient Jewish Understanding... And again verified by Deuteronomy 5 - Deuteronomy 31:26 ... the book of the Law is not as you believe.

    Western dialect of severed Denominations blur the Jewish fact. The Law is the first five books, and the Mitzvah within are indivisible. To divide them is actually breaking the Law and please Check for yourself... Deuteronomy 5 - Deuteronomy 32:26

    If you don't Check... then I assume you uphold modern teaching over Scriptural fact.

    In that... I will bid you peace and no longer disturb you.

    You also never answered what Fulfill means...

    God Bless
     
  5. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

    902
    +485
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    So in this passage we see that the Pharisees who were teachers of the law really didn't even know the law.
     
  6. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

    902
    +485
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    In John 6:53 Jesus told the Jews that unless they ate of His flesh and drank of H is blood they would have no life in them.

    Leviticus 3:17
    It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.
     
  7. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

    +2,383
    Non-Denom
    Married
    It is impossible to keep the Old Law now. The New Covenvant commands conflict with the Old Law commands. It's why Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Believers today obey God's commands under the New Covenant primarily and not the Old Covenant.
     
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +2,579
    Messianic
    Single
    In Matthew 19:3, Jesus was asked whether it was lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason. This is significant because at the time it was being taught that a man could divorce his wife if she burnt his toast. Moses permitted divorce, but not for any reason, so he was not speaking against the Law, but against how the Law was being taught. According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to subtract from what God had commanded, so if you think that Jesus added his own commands, then you should think that he sinned and therefore disqualified himself as our Savior.
     
  9. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +2,579
    Messianic
    Single
    According to Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what he commanded was not too difficult, but that His Word is near us, in our mouth and in our heart so that we can do it, and Romans 10:5-8 quotes this passage in regard to what our faith says, so to say that it is impossible to keep the Law is to call God a liar and to deny what our faith says. There is no conflict between the NT and OT commands because everything taught in the NT is based on what is taught in the OT. In Hebrews 7:12, it is not speaking about a change in God's righteous standard, which has nothing with the context, but about a transition in the administration of the Law, which is in keeping with what was being said about a transition in the priesthood. While it is true that believers today are under the New Covenant and not under the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless under the same God with the same righteous standard and therefore the same way to act in accordance with that standard.
     
  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +2,579
    Messianic
    Single
    In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and Jesus responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they were teach as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so the law that they were teaching and the law that God commanded were not the same thing. Though even if they did know the law, they were trying to test Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  11. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

    +2,383
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Hebrews 7:12 can be believed in what it says plainly at face value.

    It is true.

    Jesus said turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye.
    Jesus said love your enemies instead of hate your enemies.
    Peter was told to eat unclean animals which was a violation of OT Law.
    The animal sacrifices and the priesthood had ended with Christ's death when the temple veil was torn.
    Paul says in Galatians 5:2 that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    Paul says we are not under the Law. This would be the Old Law given to Israel and not all forms of Law (like God's Eternal Morals Laws after the Fall (like: "do not murder, "do not steal", etc.), and or the Laws given to us by Jesus and His followers). All ceremonial laws given to Israel were for Israel and they are not for the church or believers today. So commands like the Saturday Sabbath and circumcision and the dietary laws and animal sacrifices do not apply to us today (No matter how you may want that to be).
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  12. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

    +2,383
    Non-Denom
    Married
    But compassion doesn't trump God's laws. The foundation of the Law is love. For Jesus says the greatest commandment is to love God and the second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. This would include loving the poor (See the Parable of the Good Samaritan) and the question to Jesus asked right before it.
     
  13. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

    +2,383
    Non-Denom
    Married
    God's grace and obedience to God are not in conflict with each other but they are in harmony and they have a synergistic or symbiotic relationship. For faith without works is dead. True love is proven true by what a person does. Yes, if a person is into all law and they leave out God's grace and love, then they have the wrong focus and they are actually breaking God's laws. For there are laws in the New Testament that tell us to believe, repent, and confess our sins. The two greatest commandments are founded on love. So one cannot turn God's Law into something bad. We just need God and His grace first and then we can allow the Lord to work in our lives so as to walk uprightly as He intends us to do.
     
  14. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

    +2,383
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Today, many think that you do not have to obey God so as to be right with Him. But this would be turning God's grace into a license for immorality (See Jude 1:4 NIV). Then there are others who say we can obey ALL of the laws in both covenants. While God's Eternal Morals have always existed after the "Fall" that does not mean we are under the laws given to Israel. We are the church and not Israel.
     
  15. Tutorman

    Tutorman Charismatic Episcopalian

    429
    +246
    United States
    Episcopalian
    Married
    US-Republican
    What your trying to show is admirable but your looking at things through a 21st century lens, not in context of what happened in the 1st century.
     
  16. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

    902
    +485
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I don't say that we do not have to obey God to be right with Him because of Jesus' sacrifice.
    I say we can't do everything God wants of us so He made a New Covenant that is not dependent on our ability to keep a set of rules.
    We absolutely must trust what Jesus did for us.
    He kept the law perfectly for us.
    He paid our sin debt.
    When we understand the immense debt we owed that He paid, this makes us love Him.
    And if we love Him we will spend time with Him and He will transform us into His image and the law will be kept by Christ living in us, with no effort on our part.

    Those who say that grace is a license to sin don't understand grace or the law.
    The strength of sin is the law.
    Grace is our teacher that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world.
    We do not need a set of rules to know what to do.
    The Holy Spirit is our guide. And He knows all of the laws. Trust Him to tell you to do what is right.
     
  17. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

    249
    +142
    United States
    Christian
    Married
     
  18. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,693
    Christian
    Single
    "Yeah man, just what I was looking for...think I'll get drunk, go commit adultery/fornication tonight, lie/tell her I don't have any VD, and steal her money as I leave...wouldn't want to create no dangerous traffic jam, besides they all do it".
     
  19. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

    +797
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Your analogy does not apply. Just taking the very last line, "they all do it", I need to point out that it is more dangerous to go the speed limit while everyone else is speeding, than to go with the flow. What is dangerous is DIFFERENCES in speed.

    An exception would be the flow of traffic being so fast that there is risk of tire sidewall failure or other such issues.
     
  20. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +450
    Christian
    Private
    Joseph didn't ignore the law but he had right under the law to accuse Mary and have her stoned. What Joseph chose to do is waive that right and show compassion to Mary which was also his right to do and really only his right. If a person throws a rock at my window and breaks it I have rights to report the act and at least attempt to have that person judged under the law or I may also choose not to and it is my right to do either one. Joseph is an early example of how compassion wins but he still sought to divorce her, Christ however takes it a step further he not only shows us compassion but also chooses to keep the union.
     
Loading...