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Featured The Law loses again..God must be angry!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Blood Bought 1953, Dec 4, 2017.

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  1. eleos1954

    eleos1954 Member Supporter

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    "
    "Thou shalt not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil..." The 10 commandments came long after that because of the hardness of Israel's heart. God wanted a relationship, to interact directly with them, but they wanted someone to intercede...and so God gave it to them."

    ****

    Ok, let's look at some things in Gods word.

    The Truth and consequences - Simple and quick to the point. Do What I command.

    Genesis

    15Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

    Genesis 3

    Satans - Lies and Consequences

    4But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

    Although, not codified (i.e. written), Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Eternal law was broken.

    This is interesting:

    Why did Satan use these particular lies (as underlined above)? Interesting what "eternal laws" were being attacked (misrepresented/twisted) used by Satan. Interesting Satan used these particular deceptions as they violate eternal law.

    Ok, so before the 10 Commandments (written by God himself on the tablets) and before the Mosaic Law were written by Moses. Basically what happened?

    Adam and Eve sinned.

    They believed what Satan said (a lie) instead of trusting in what God said (the truth) and by not doing what God told them to do thereby breaking eternal law, although not "written". Not obeying God.

    What happened next?

    After that, sacrifice happened ..... and actually the first sacrifice was provided by God Himself ... foreshadowing (pointing to) Jesus who would be the final sacrifice for all mankind as we are "clothed" by His sacrifice, His blood. This is actually the first prophetic act pointing to our savior.

    Genesis 3

    20The man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. 21And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

    What is necessary to make clothing out of "skins" - sacrifice -shedding of blood which God provided just as He provided (gave) His son Jesus Christ. Pointing to our savior.

    What happened Next?

    It was necessary for Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life to have continuing (eternal life), and had they not sinned this would have continued and mankind would not be in this mess ... but they did in fact sin so God drove them away from it .. took access to the tree of life away from them.

    Genesis 3

    22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

    Then what happened?

    The offerings of Cain and Able - Even before the written Laws (Eternal & Mosaic Law)

    Genesis 4

    Cain and Abel

    1Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gottena a man with the help of the LORD.” 2And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground. 3In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground, 4and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions.

    Genesis 4

    4 And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering, 5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard.

    Both Cain and Abel knew what kind of sacrifice was needed. Blood must be shed (no blood shed then there is no atonement).

    Cain chose to disobey of what kind of sacrifice was required. How did they know that? Because of the Original sacrifice (an example) made by God and taught to them by their parents Adam and Eve.

    So, although these things were not "written", they knew them. It just had not been "codified" i.e. written down yet.

    Something you might find interesting as well.

    Revelation 12

    Eden Restored

    1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

    Tree of life in Heaven. Interesting.

    Amen and God Bless.
     
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  2. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Jesus wasn't killed by anyone, but rather he laid down his own life (John 10:18).
     
  3. Blood Bought 1953

    Blood Bought 1953 Ned Flander’s Buddy

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    Another example. Grace trumps law Nice post!
     
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    It should be fairly straightforward that "thus saith the Lord" is indicating that it is from the Lord, so I'm confused as to why you think it is indicating the opposite.

    Jesus never rejected the Law, but rather he taught obedience to it both by word and by example. If you believe that he taught against the Law, then you should believe that he sinned in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 and that he was a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 13:4-6).
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  5. eleos1954

    eleos1954 Member Supporter

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    I made an additional post regarding the "fulfill" question.

    Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah? Do you believe the New Testament? Just asking because some do not ... just need clarification.

    God Bless.
     
  6. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    According to Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so grace does not trump law, but rather God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey it. The Law commands us to love God and our neighbor, so loving God and our neighbor is not trumping the Law, but is acting in accordance with what the Law requires.
     
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  7. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    These 2 commands sum up all of the commands in the law and prophets.
    I am assuming you are refering to "Love God with all your heart.... and love your neighbor as yourself.
    If you focus on these two laws you will live in condemnation because you cannot keep them.
    Rather we love Him BECAUSE He loved us.
    And we love others as He loved us.
    These two are far superior to the first two.
    When we see how much God loved us, love for Him will come naturally. But if we are just trying to keep a command, it will be like we are trying to manufacture love.
    Loving others as He loved us means that we need Him to love others through us. Galatians 2:20
     
  8. eleos1954

    eleos1954 Member Supporter

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    John 10

    30 The Father and I are one.”

    John 8

    58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
     
  9. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    I do and He is. Thank you.
     
  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Can you not recognize how absurd is to argue that it is a bad thing to seek to obey the commands of the God that we serve? It does not follow that because the Law condemns disobedience that we should therefore disobey it. God had many purposes for giving the Law, but providing the means of becoming justified was never one them, so it does not follow that because we shouldn't follow the Law for a purpose for which it was never given that therefore we shouldn't follow the Law for the reasons for which it was given.
     
  11. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    Indeed! And heaven is within us/in our midst...When eyesight is restored and awakened from the deep slumber that came upon Adam, we can SEE (as it was from the beginning)...Rivers of living waters from within us...that's the promise!
     
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The ceremonial laws instruct us how to act in accordance with God's holiness, so they can only be done away with if God's eternal holiness is first done away with. Crosses were never used as a means of disposing of laws, but rather what was written on crosses were the violations of the law or the charges against the person being crucified in order to explain why they were being crucified (Matthew 27:37). This fits perfectly with the concept of the charges against us or the violations of God's Law that we have committed were nailed to Christ's cross and he died in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but does not fit at all with doing away with God's holy, righteous, and good Law.

    In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite vow, which involved making offerings (Numbers 6), and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay for the expenses of others who had undertaken a similar vow, so offerings did not stop with the death or resurrection of Christ, but only stopped with the destruction of the temple. However, the Bible prophecies a time when a 3rd temple will be built and when offerings will resume (Ezekiel 44-46).

    A little bit later in John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teaching, and that his teaching is not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not give his own commands and did not depart from the teachings of the Father in the slightest.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  13. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Correct, and a few comments/warning on that subject.

    Jesus' rules, the ones the faith only crowd loves to cite is in bold:

    Matthew 22:37-40King James Version (KJV)

    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.


    38 This is the first and great commandment.


    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.


    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    The part they tend to ignore is is verse 40 (not bold) which means pure/true love to it's fullest extent would actually cause a person to keep all the commandments. Meaning not only are the commandments still in affect/important, and love far from does away with them, but if we *really* love our neighbor, we will not steal from them, sleep with their wife/husband, lie to them... we would honor our father/mother and so forth.

    I think most understood that already so I'm reluctant to drive it home with the analogy, but still, if we love, say, our wife/husband, we aren't going to steal from them, lie to them, cheat in them or what not. See?, we already understand that concept completely, hence the concept of really loving our neighbor/anyone.

    However, if you get it...good, but for those that don't, for those that are genuinely confused, for whatever reason...the faith only crowd confusing you because they like the concept of being saved no matter what they do. And I hope they realize what they are doing in teaching such. Or you just weren't able to quite get it. And it's there for that faith only crowd unless they choose to cite something they learned instead of read, in order to make any such scripture appear null (I'll reiterate in a moment.

    Anyway, because God knew what to expect of people/the confusion that would come about for reasons I mentioned, he made sure all this was clear in the following, and other scripture through out the NT.

    I need first to mention, it's normal to read the following scripture and see it as black and white, or that's the way it is, and it is generally not normal to see those who go to hell "were never saved to begin with"...seriously no one thinks that right off as they read it for the first time. Think about it, most all of who cite that didn't come up with it on their own, you seeked out the religion, or others that told you that. I mean if you want to go that route, believe what you like, just making what I think is a very viable point on a popular phrase that is not biblical and that there is nothing at all in the scripture to indicate it is. Also, from what I've seen, all arguments to make that quote work quickly fall apart.

    So here they are again. :) And please pay special attention the the last one, that is not a list but drives home the point that actions/being good (very old conceptt) by us are involved/required in getting to heaven...The first one is actually telling us to not be deceived as some here are and are trying to do to others. PLEASE, listen to what the bible says, not man.

    " 1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

    Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Eph 5:3-6 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No sexually immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

    Rev. 22:12-16 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    And finally just a general warning from the Lord:

    John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  14. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    The thing about seeking to “obey” is pride. I seek forgiveness and trust the Holy Spirit.

    The Obey crowd tend to become “fruit inspectors”.

    Jesus died because we screw up at Obey...and He rose to show our ransom Check cleared.

    Not one command followed can add to His perfect work.
     
  15. jesus316

    jesus316 All Truth is in Jesus

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    An example is Moses' teaching on divorce which Jesus said was not from the Lord.
     
  16. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Impractical Rat

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    Galatians 5:14
    Love never trumps the law. It fulfills the law. If you don't understand the difference, then either you don't understand the law, or you don't understand love.
     
  17. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    Tomato tomata?
     
  18. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The Law is truth (Psalms 119:142), the Spirit has the role of leading in all truth (John 16:13), and the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have. Faith is always associated with a willingness to submit to God's will as made known in His commands, such with every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11 also being an example of someone submitting to God's will. As Jesus said in Matthew 23:23, faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law. Jesus also said that if we love him, then will obey his teachings, and that his teachings are not his own, but that of the Father, so obedience to God is not about pride, but about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. The NT is full of exhortations to repent and turn back to obedience, and seeking forgiveness for your sins should make you want to turn back to obedience and sin no more.
     
  19. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    Show me a person that claims to sin no more and I’ll show you a liar.

    Only God is Good. We’re not perfect until death and ressurection.

    Jesus is the Truth. He said so. :)
     
  20. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I agree that we are not without sin and that we will not be made perfect until He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus, but I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said.

    Indeed, the Law is the way (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Jeremiah 6:16-19, Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Proverbs 3:18, Matthew 19:17), Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Law is God's Word, and Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so there is no following one without following the other.
     
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