• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Law loses again..God must be angry!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Blood Bought 1953, Dec 4, 2017.

Tags:
  1. Sarah G

    Sarah G Human bean. Supporter

    741
    +925
    Netherlands
    Christian
    Married
    Lol, this is actually hilarious. You make a post about love trumping law and we immediately start a fight/debate about the finer nuances of the law :D People are ridiculous, Christians are ridiculous; I think we were born this way.
    Some religious sects say we are in an age of 'quarrel and hypocrisy' (kali yuga) and sometimes I am inclined to agree with them but where would the fun be in agreeing, haha.

    God bless you and your posts Blood, I fear you are fighting a losing battle but you do bring a little light into my life :twohearts:
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  2. eleos1954

    eleos1954 Member Supporter

    216
    +111
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    *****

    Mary was a virgin and conceived by divine intervention. At the time Joseph and Mary were betrothed (engaged) so Joseph was considering marrying her and then below would have happened.

    The law:

    Deuteronomy 24:1-4

    "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man's wife, and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife,
    then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.

    Matthew 1

    18 Now the birth of Jesus Christe took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothedf to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. 19And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. 20But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:

    The Moral Law... nor the Mosaic law were broken. therefore Joseph did not "ignore" any law. None were broken and of course in the end Joseph and Mary both knew this.

    God Bless.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  3. eleos1954

    eleos1954 Member Supporter

    216
    +111
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    What law is this in relation to?
     
  4. Radagast

    Radagast has left CF

    +1,791
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Trumps which law? Every law?

    Do you want to get rid of every single law, or not? And if not, which laws do we keep?
     
  5. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

    249
    +142
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    We best not be attempting to keep any law!

    Galatians 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

    Romans 4:5 shows how we get “Justified”

    The Law condemns us! Deuteronomy 31:26

    Love your neighbor is good and well, but Romans 4:4 ain’t no joke!
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  6. eleos1954

    eleos1954 Member Supporter

    216
    +111
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    ****
    No disrespect but, compassion does not trump the law, and it is not what the Bible teaches. Yes, we are to have compassion ... but it does not "trump" Gods Laws, that is the 10 commandments that are eternal. As far as the Mosaic laws, ceremonial/sacrificial laws they were nailed to the cross and were ended at the crucifixion of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. This is because Jesus himself was the final sacrifice for all of mankind and the sacrificial system was no longer needed.

    Jesus said:

    Matthew 24

    35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

    John 14

    15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

    God Bless
     
  7. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

    249
    +142
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Sincerely... James 2:13 says exactly what blood bought was saying... and ... Hosea 6:6 as well as the repeat with extra commentary by God incarnate... Matthew 9:13

    Jesus said He didn’t come to “abolish” the law but to “fulfill” the law.

    What does “Fulfill” mean to you?

    Are you aware that the Pentateuch is the Law?

    As in Moses... Pentateuch... The Torah...

    You are aware that The Law refers to the first 5 books of scripture?

    More specifically... Paul, when He wrote Galatians knew this and ... this goes without saying... most of the time... but... Jesus was a Jew, born under the Law... and thus... He (aside from obviously being God) knew that Law meant; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy...

    If you skip John 13:34 and quote this dry... it is quoted
    Out of context​
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  8. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

    249
    +142
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Deuteronomy 31:26 sums up your answer nicely.
     
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +5,024
    Anabaptist
    Sorry, no. Joseph did not ignore the law. Jesus, Joseph AND Mary were perfectly TORAH observant, as were all the Apostles and disciples.
    (don't have time now to explain or clarify.... plumber just called and I'll be tied up a while, but will return, Yahweh Willing, ....)
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  10. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

    249
    +142
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The point remains made that Joseph chose compassion over what people thought of him.

    It may have taken an Angel to drive this home... but... the point remains made and posts 45, 47 and 48 go on and support the OP.
     
  11. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

    +833
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I got pulled over by a cop once. I was doing 45 in a 25, was not wearing my seat belt, and had expired tabs. He just wrote me a ticket for 35 in a 25 and told me to get my new tabs. :)

    Here is where I really, REALLY get frustrated with the "law". I drive a LOT, and I really like it (well over 1 million miles in private cars). I treat all speed limits as if they were 10 mph faster than they really are. And that is because that is what the cops do as well. I know. I have known lots of cops over the years and talked to a lot more. In fact, where I live, one cop said that they "leave you alone as long as your going less than 15 over".

    So, "You're breaking the law!", you say. Here's the problem. If I actually drive the speed limit on most of the roads I navigate, I will create a dangerous traffic jam. So, what is the "right" thing to do? The question is rhetorical. You do see how squishy some laws can be, though.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  12. discipler7

    discipler7 Active Member

    350
    +90
    Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
    Christian
    Single
    .
    .
    FYI, you are gravely misinterpreting the Scriptures. We do not keep the Law to be justified for salvation. We keep the Law because we love God and love our neighbors as ourselves. In return, God will bless us with a good and long life on earth. And because we have faith in Jesus Christ, we will also be blessed by God with the kingdom of heaven when we die = saved from hell or salvation. ...

    ROMANS.5 & .6 =
    5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

    At ROMANS.5 & 6 and GALATIANS.2:9-17, Paul was preaching against the Judaizers, ie early Jewish Christians who demanded that new Gentile Christians brought in by Paul into the Jewish synagogues and Holy Temple of God in Jerusalem be required to also keep Moses Law like themselves and the Jews, eg be circumcised.
    ... Paul stated that salvation is based solely on faith in Jesus Christ and not on the keeping of the Law. So, there was no need to burden the new GC with the Law except for the minimum legal requirements at ACTS.15:24-29.
    ... Bear in mind that salvation means 'to be saved from hell when we die', eg JOHN.3:16, MATTHEW.5:17-48. While still on earth and not yet dead or saved from hell, how should Christians live.? Certainly, it's according to God's Law or Moses Law, either fully or partially. Even US Christians have to abide by US Law, eg pay Federal taxes, cannot publicly discriminate against atheists and other non-Christians, etc.
    .

    Like I posted earlier, ROMANS.7:12 says that God's Law is good for His people. But most Gentiles lead lawless lives from childhood, wrt God's Law or Moses Law. So, at ACTS.15:24-29, God only requires new Gentile Christians to begin their born-again lives of the Spirit by keeping 4 simple and non-burdensome laws of Moses.(cf; 1CORINTHIANS.3:1-3) Thereafter, they should slowly learn to keep as many non-burdensome laws of Moses as possible. This is for their own good.
    ... IOW, God has exempted new Gentile Christians from any law of Moses which is a burden, eg circumcision and kosher foods. They are not exempted from any law which is not a burden, esp morality laws, eg the Ten Commandments(EXODUS.20), DEUT.18:9-14, LEV.10:9 & 18:22, etc.

    In comparison, new Jewish Christians are required by God to continue to keep Moses Law, as many laws as possible, because it is not a burden to them.

    Those "Christians" who wantonly or ignorantly commit sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking by breaking Moses Law risk losing their salvation while suffering horribly for their sins, eg by cursing/blaspheming God/Jesus and die, like the wife of Job(JOB.2:8). Be warned by DEUT.28:15, JOB, 1COR.5:5 & 11:30, 1JOHN.5:16-19, HEBREWS.10:26-31, 1COR.6:9-11, REV.22:12-15, ie sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking have consequences - some may lead to a horrible early death(= risk losing salvation/faith) and some may not, eg convicted murderers are usually executed and traffic offenders only have to pay a fine.

    Being saved from hell after death rests solely on faith/trust/belief in Jesus as the Christ/Messiah/Savior on the Cross.(JOHN.3:16, GALATIANS.2:16, eg LUKE.23:43, ROMANS.5:12)

    The perfect Christians are those who keep God's Law, either partially or fully, and believe in Jesus Christ = gain a good and long life on earth, and be saved from hell(= go to heaven) when they die.(cf; MATTHEW.19:23)
     
  13. discipler7

    discipler7 Active Member

    350
    +90
    Heard Island And Mcdonald Islands
    Christian
    Single
    Of course, even the Lord Jesus said so about the Law, ...
    MATTHEW.23: =
    23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
     
  14. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

    +548
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Others
    Mary and Joseph were both Jews, and would have become betrothed (ie. engaged, promised one to the other to be married), according to Jewish customs and traditions.

    This link gives a fairly concise rendition of the betrothal and marriage, per Jewish customs.
    10.1. The Jewish Wedding Analogy Commentary - A Testimony of Jesus Christ

    During the time of the wedding Mary is a virgin.
    After the wedding ceremony Mary and Joseph are thus Married (ie espoused), and Mary is still a virgin.
    Typically after the couple are Married, they go to the chamber prepared by the man, and consummate their marriage, by lying together.
    Then there is a feast.

    There is no detailed record of WHAT did happen in the marriage chamber - but what did not happen is they did not lie together. And shortly thereafter the wedding day, Mary went to visit her cousin Elizabeth for 3 months, then returned home. Joseph in the meantime was conflicted over marrying a woman who was pregnant, and what to do about it, yet Scripture continues to indicate Joseph provided for Mary, his wife's needs, but was not sure how to put her away from him, as his wife.
    Then comes the time nearing for Mary to deliver, and also the time, people had to go to Bethlehem to declare their poll tax, (a tax upon persons). Joseph took himself and his wife to Bethlehem and declared them husband and wife, according to the law.
    An angel appears to Joseph in a dream and says;
    ...Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost....And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Thereafter, Joseph, accepts Mary as his pregnant virgin wife, and honored her virginity until after the child was born.

    Matt 1
    [24] Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
    [25] And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    Mary was by the time-line of scripture, a virgin when she was betrothed to Joseph, a virgin when she married Joseph, Learned of her pregnancy right after they were married, and did not lie with Joseph, her husband, until after the baby was born.

    Luke 1
    [27] To a virgin espoused (married) to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
    [28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
    [29] And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
    [30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
    [31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
    [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    [33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    [34] Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  15. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

    +1,039
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Married
    In the beginning the command was "Thou shalt not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil..." The 10 commandments came long after that because of the hardness of Israel's heart. God wanted a relationship, to interact directly with them, but they wanted someone to intercede...and so God gave it to them.

    The Law is to bring knowledge of sin. Jesus Christ came to show The Way (back to the beginning) to take away the sins of the world. Paul said the purpose of the letter of the law is to bring death (to that inner man) so the spirit be revealed within and the law be written on the heart, not tablets of stone. Jesus broke The Law to keep it.

    To love God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbour as yourself (do unto others as you would have them do to you) is to keep that first command. Abraham was counted righteous because of his faith - he believed God...before there were 10 commandments.

    When the NEW has come, the old has passed away...New Creation lives (automatically by nature) by the spirit of Christ (mind of) and not the carnal nature of the old man...no labouring to keep God's command...though as part of the process taking place within/soul journey, the law has a purpose...to wear out the old man like a garment...(Hebrews 1:11-12) which all goes back to the beginning in the garden when Adam first perceived he was naked and ashamed, God making a covering of skin to cover up His glory (that still lives under that covering of skin and being revealed (within) when we can 'see' again...
     
  16. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,590
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    "Moses" is an idiomatic reference to God's law because Moses was the instrument that God gave the law through. The "letter" of the law affords divorce, but the letter doesn't sufficiently reveal God's full intent for this commandment. In fact, the letter does not sufficiently reveal God's intent for pretty much any commandment because, as already shown in the examples of adultery and murder... the heart's condition in relation to that particular sin dictates the depth of the sin. One can "commit adultery" without sleeping with another. That is his point here and throughout the NT and is the tool he is using to show that we can't walk this out to perfection without having the law written in full by God on our minds and hearts.
     
  17. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

    +548
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Others
    Yes, Joseph was married.


    Matt 1
    [18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph

    Matt 1
    [19] Then Joseph her husband,
    Luke 1
    [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph
    Luke 2
    [5] To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  18. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +5,024
    Anabaptist
    Luke 8:18 Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has ...
    biblehub.com/luke/8-18.htm
    Take care then how you hear, for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away.” Berean Study Bible Pay attention, therefore, to how you listen.

    Did Yahweh EVER lose His Perfect Compassion, His Perfect Love , His Perfect Mercy ?
     
  19. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

    249
    +142
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    We don’t sin so grace abounds and Jesus is no promoter of Sin.

    What I mean is... salvation and Law Keeping are two different matters.

    There are biblical provisions for messianic Jew types... but... Jesus is it.

    It is finished meant just that.

    The Love thy neighbor as thyself is more than sufficient. Love does no one harm and what law is against it.

    That’s my underlying point.

    Grace isn’t saying we can sin... Grace is because we sin and are sinners.

    Strip away Jesus and James 2:10 rips us to shreds and places us back on coarse for the lake of fire like we deserve...
     
  20. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

    249
    +142
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    In Matthew 23 ... Jesus even interjects compassion...

    He doesn’t say “to the lake of fire”... He says; “How can you escape”? I figured you noticed that and I liked your post so I went on ahead and said that too.
     
Loading...