God said what?

[FutureAndAHope]

Calvinism presents the idea that God has chosen a group of people for damnation. In the same way, He chose and elected a group for salvation. This group chosen for damnation can never be saved according to Calvanism's teaching. God created them to display His wrath.

Now if this were true, fine, but if it is not true it is an attack on the very nature of God. An attack on His goodness and forbearance.

Now I would like to assert that this Calvinistic idea is not at all of God. That God did not create man to destroy them.

Genisis shows us firstly, that God was shocked at how bad man had become, and He wished He had not created them.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

The fact that God wished he had not created man, shows us that He certainly did not plan their wickedness, He did not desire it to display wrath.

The scripture also shows us that God has a desire, even a longing, to save even the wicked, but it is them who are unwilling to be saved.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

That verse alone should settle the issue.

But there is more, all of the Early Church leaders who came after the apostles, within a generation or two, believed that man was "not" predestined by God to damnation. They taught that man has free will to choose life or death. Yet, a Calvinist will look to people who came 100's of years later, who taught what they teach, as if it was from the mouth of the apostles. Yet ignore that those close to the apostles taught against Calvinism.

So I ask the reader who opposes this, are you sure you are doing God a favor, protecting His honor, and word? Are you not maybe destroying the opinion of God in the ears of those you teach?

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.


Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

 

[HTacianas]

Calvinism presents the idea that God has chosen a group of people for damnation. In the same way, He chose and elected a group for salvation. This group chosen for damnation can never be saved according to Calvanism's teaching. God created them to display His wrath.

Now if this were true, fine, but if it is not true it is an attack on the very nature of God. An attack on His goodness and forbearance.

Now I would like to assert that this Calvinistic idea is not at all of God. That God did not create man to destroy them.

Genisis shows us firstly, that God was shocked at how bad man had become, and He wished He had not created them.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

The fact that God wished he had not created man, shows us that He certainly did not plan their wickedness, He did not desire it to display wrath.

The scripture also shows us that God has a desire, even a longing, to save even the wicked, but it is them who are unwilling to be saved.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

That verse alone should settle the issue.

But there is more, all of the Early Church leaders who came after the apostles, within a generation or two, believed that man was "not" predestined by God to damnation. They taught that man has free will to choose life or death. Yet, a Calvinist will look to people who came 100's of years later, who taught what they teach, as if it was from the mouth of the apostles. Yet ignore that those close to the apostles taught against Calvinism.

So I ask the reader who opposes this, are you sure you are doing God a favor, protecting His honor, and word? Are you not maybe destroying the opinion of God in the ears of those you teach?

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.


Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

In response to the Protestant Reformation a Synod of Orthodox Bishops -the successors to the Church Fathers- convened in Jerusalem in 1672. They found in part:

For if [we were to accept Scriptures] otherwise, each man holding every day a different sense concerning them, the Catholic Church would not by the grace of Christ continue to be the Church until this day, holding the same doctrine of faith, and always identically and steadfastly believing. But rather she would be torn into innumerable parties, and subject to heresies. Neither would the Church be holy, the pillar and ground of the truth, without spot or wrinkle; but would be the Church of the malignant as it is obvious the church of the heretics undoubtedly is, and especially that of Calvin, who are not ashamed to learn from the Church, and then to wickedly repudiate her.

 

[NBB]

Calvinism tortured my mind so much thinking about it, that i had to drop the idea.

I like the verses speaking about the kingdom of God, when Jesus says that he invited all that were supposed to go, they refused, so 'angry' he his servants went and invited the poor, disabled people, etc and they accepted happily.

 

[BBAS 64]

Calvinism presents the idea that God has chosen a group of people for damnation. In the same way, He chose and elected a group for salvation. This group chosen for damnation can never be saved according to Calvanism's teaching. God created them to display His wrath.

Now if this were true, fine, but if it is not true it is an attack on the very nature of God. An attack on His goodness and forbearance.

Now I would like to assert that this Calvinistic idea is not at all of God. That God did not create man to destroy them.

Genisis shows us firstly, that God was shocked at how bad man had become, and He wished He had not created them.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

The fact that God wished he had not created man, shows us that He certainly did not plan their wickedness, He did not desire it to display wrath.

The scripture also shows us that God has a desire, even a longing, to save even the wicked, but it is them who are unwilling to be saved.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

That verse alone should settle the issue.

But there is more, all of the Early Church leaders who came after the apostles, within a generation or two, believed that man was "not" predestined by God to damnation. They taught that man has free will to choose life or death. Yet, a Calvinist will look to people who came 100's of years later, who taught what they teach, as if it was from the mouth of the apostles. Yet ignore that those close to the apostles taught against Calvinism.

So I ask the reader who opposes this, are you sure you are doing God a favor, protecting His honor, and word? Are you not maybe destroying the opinion of God in the ears of those you teach?

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.


Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

Good Day FAH

You mean like here... I know RC Sproul call Romans 9 Anvil that breaks the foolishness of man's self autonomy. He accounts his professor reading/ reminding him of it every day.

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Does God create people he knows will perish..... for what purpose?

"
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

That verse alone should settle the issue."

Hardly you are required to answer some fundamental question about the text.

Why do you think this has any thing to do with Salvation where is that in the context? The chapter starts out with a series of Woes I contend nothing in the context has to do with Salvation.

The hermeneutical challenge is yours.

Who / what is Jerusalem
Who /what are her children
What is the relationship between the two
Who would he gather
Who is/were unwilling

In Adam we all would perish God has to do nothing, that is Justice on display.

But God is active and Mercies some, that is Grace on display.

Nobody get injustice.

He is worthy of our Praise!

In Him

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Calvinism tortured my mind so much thinking about it, that i had to drop the idea.

I like the verses speaking about the kingdom of God, when Jesus says that he invited all that were supposed to go, they refused, so 'angry' he his servants went and invited the poor, disabled people, etc and they accepted happily.

Good day, NBB

Exactly which one would that be? The Parable of the wedding.

You do why Jesus told Parables right:

Matt 10:10-13

Mat 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Consider:

In Him,

Bill

 

[One God and Father of All]

Good Day FAH

You mean like here... I know RC Sproul call Romans 9 Anvil that breaks the foolishness of man's self autonomy. He accounts his professor reading/ reminding him of it every day.

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Does God create people he knows will perish..... for what purpose?

"
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

That verse alone should settle the issue."

Hardly you are required to answer some fundamental question about the text.

Why do you think this has any thing to do with Salvation where is that in the context? The chapter starts out with a series of Woes I contend nothing in the context has to do with Salvation.

The hermeneutical challenge is yours.

Who / what is Jerusalem
Who /what are her children
What is the relationship between the two
Who would he gather
Who is/were unwilling

In Adam we all would perish God has to do nothing, that is Justice on display.

But God is active and Mercies some, that is Grace on display.

Nobody get injustice.

He is worthy of our Praise!

In Him

Bill

Jer 18 1The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the [a]wheel. 4And the vessel that he made of clay was [c]marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

5Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,10if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

11“Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ”

 

[NBB]

Good day, NBB

Exactly which one would that be? The Parable of the wedding.

You do why Jesus told Parables right:

Matt 10:10-13

Mat 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Consider:

In Him,

Bill

i quoted that one because i think is related to this topic, i interpret it meaning that he invited everyone to the wedding (kingdom of God, salvation), but only the 'needy' went, the humble etc.
And in real life is seems to be true, rich people etc. sometimes are too proudful etc.
So is not like he is selecting people to go to hell, people with their pride etc etc don't accept the gospel.

 

[BBAS 64]

Jer 18 1The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the [a]wheel. 4And the vessel that he made of clay was [c]marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

5Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,10if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

11“Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ”

Good day , One Gid Father of all

.... He choses to adopt as his own. (sorry just had to do that)

Thanks for sharing. DA Carson in his work NT use of the OT (pg 645) cites multiple passages from Isa and Wisdom literature of Solomon. That Paul uses in the structure of the Creator in a fascinating way. Therefore the commentary of Paul in application of these OT passages are very powerful as to the rights and authority of the creator over every single vessel he creates.

In Him

Bill

 

[One God and Father of All]

Good day , One Gid Father of all

.... He choses to adopt as his own. (sorry just had to do that)

Thanks for sharing. DA Carson in his work NT use of the OT (pg 645) cites multiple passages from Isa and Wisdom literature of Solomon. That Paul uses in the structure of the Creator in a fascinating way. Therefore the commentary of Paul in application of these OT passages are very powerful as to the rights and authority of the creator over every single vessel he creates.

In Him

Bill

Paul is certainly not contradicting what God said in Jer 18. But a Calvinist would have to admit it if he were to hold to his teaching.

 

[BBAS 64]

Paul is certainly not contradicting what God said in Jer 18. But a Calvinist would have to admit it if he were to hold to his teaching.

Good day,

I agree Paul is not contradicting, but his application is amazing in the context.

I have suggested a source to assist in understanding use of OT in the NT by Premiere NT Greek scholar DA Carson.

You must have a source for your assertion as it relates to "Calvinist", would you please provide it I would love to see it.

In Him

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

i quoted that one because i think is related to this topic, i interpret it meaning that he invited everyone to the wedding (kingdom of God, salvation), but only the 'needy' went, the humble etc.
And in real life is seems to be true, rich people etc. sometimes are too proudful etc.
So is not like he is selecting people to go to hell, people with their pride etc etc don't accept the gospel.

Good day, NBB

Lets look at the text and play out your interpretation, Then may be we can post the text and derive from the text what it means by what text says... line by line

Fair Enough?

So the Royal king invites everyone to the Wedding of His son.
Only needy, and humble people went, this is only due to have you define rich, and your view of how "some of them are"
Some of them did not have the correct clothing (they were poor and needy) but they went anyways
Because they did not have the correct clothing, the King throws them out, and condemns them to a place with wailing and gnashing of teeth?

Am I close??

The text:

22 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants[a] to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

In Him,

Bill

 

[NBB]

Good day, NBB

Lets look at the text and play out your interpretation, Then may be we can post the text and derive from the text what it means by what text says... line by line

Fair Enough?

So the Royal king invites everyone to the Wedding of His son.
Only needy, and humble people went, this is only due to have you define rich, and your view of how "some of them are"
Some of them did not have the correct clothing (they were poor and needy) but they went anyways
Because they did not have the correct clothing, the King throws them out, and condemns them to a place with wailing and gnashing of teeth?

Am I close??

The text:

22 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants[a] to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

In Him,

Bill

They were "invited", but they refused, the poor the blind etc, didn't.

i was referring to this one:

15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’

18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’

19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’

20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’

22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’

23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”

 

[BBAS 64]

i was referring to this one:

15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”


16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’

18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’

19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’

20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’


22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’


23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”

Good day NBB

Ok great....

There is some context we must pay attention to Jesus is invited to a dinner at the house of the ruler of the Pharisees,

Luke 14:1 One Sabbath, when he went to dine at the house of a ruler of the Pharisees, they were watching him carefully.

In verse 7 he is addressing "Now he told a parable to those who were invited"

Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, “When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

In verse 12 he addresses specific "He said also to the man who had invited him"

Luk 14:12 He said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.” When one of those who reclined at table with him heard these things, he said to him, “Blessed is everyone who will eat bread in the kingdom of God!” But he said to him, “A man once gave a great banquet and invited many. And at the time for the banquet he sent his servant to say to those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’ But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it. Please have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to examine them. Please have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ So the servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house became angry and said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly to the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in the poor and crippled and blind and lame.’ And the servant said, ‘Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.’ And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled. For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’”



Which address by Jesus are you referring too?

In Him,

Bill

 

[NBB]

Good day NBB

Ok great....

There is some context we must pay attention to Jesus is invited to a dinner at the house of the ruler of the Pharisees,

Luke 14:1 One Sabbath, when he went to dine at the house of a ruler of the Pharisees, they were watching him carefully.

In verse 7 he is addressing "Now he told a parable to those who were invited"

Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, “When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

In verse 12 he addresses specific "He said also to the man who had invited him"

Luk 14:12 He said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.” When one of those who reclined at table with him heard these things, he said to him, “Blessed is everyone who will eat bread in the kingdom of God!” But he said to him, “A man once gave a great banquet and invited many. And at the time for the banquet he sent his servant to say to those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’ But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it. Please have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to examine them. Please have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ So the servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house became angry and said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly to the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in the poor and crippled and blind and lame.’ And the servant said, ‘Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.’ And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled. For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’”



Which address by Jesus are you referring too?

In Him,

Bill

The parable i quoted which it was in response to the statement “Blessed is everyone who will eat bread in the kingdom of God!”.
I interpret it, that they despised the invitation to the gospel for x reason (like pride, etc), but those who didn't reject the invitation entered, so is not like God is selecting people to hell, they were invited but refused.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Good Day FAH

You mean like here... I know RC Sproul call Romans 9 Anvil that breaks the foolishness of man's self autonomy. He accounts his professor reading/ reminding him of it every day.

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Does God create people he knows will perish..... for what purpose?

As I mentioned elsewhere, Paul states, "has endured with much patience", other translations say "longsuffering", this gives the idea that before they were handed over to blindness, made vessels of wrath, fashioned for wrath, they were exposed to the grace and mercy of God but rejected it. As Romans speaks of blindness:

Rom 1:21-22 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Additionally, Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies, brings up the topic of Pharoah and says that only after Pharoah at earlier times had rejected the light "set Him at naught", did God blind Him for His purposes.

Chap. XXIX. — Refutation of the Arguments of the Marcionites, Who Attempted to Show That God Was the Author of Sin, Because He Blinded Pharaoh and His Servants.

1. “But,” say they, “God hardened the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants.” (Exo_9:35) Those, then, who allege such difficulties, do not read in the Gospel that passage where the Lord replied to the disciples, when they asked Him, “Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?” — “Because it is given unto you to know the mystery of the kingdom of heaven; but to thorn I speak in parables, that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not hear, understanding they may not understand; in order that the prophecy of Isaiah regarding them may be fulfil leading, Make the heart of this people gross and make their ears dull, and blind their eyes. But blessed are your eyes, which see the things that ye see; and your ears, which hear what ye do hear. (Mat_13:11-16; Isa_6:10) For one and the same God [that blesses others] inflicts blindness upon those who do not believe, but who set Him at naught; just as the sun, which is a creature of His, [acts with regard] to those who, by reason of any weakness of the eyes cannot behold his light; but to those who believe in Him and follow Him, He grants a fuller and greater illumination of mind. In accordance with this word, therefore, does the apostle say, in the Second the] to the Corinthians: “In whom the this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ should shine [unto them].” (2Co_4:4) And again, in that to the Romans: “And as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things that are not convenient.” (Rom_1:28) Speaking of antichrist, too, he says clearly in the Second to the Thessalonians: “And for this cause God shall send them the working of error, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but consented to iniquity.” (2Th_2:11)

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

That verse alone should settle the issue."

Hardly you are required to answer some fundamental question about the text.

Why do you think this has any thing to do with Salvation where is that in the context? The chapter starts out with a series of Woes I contend nothing in the context has to do with Salvation.

The hermeneutical challenge is yours.

Who / what is Jerusalem
Who /what are her children
What is the relationship between the two
Who would he gather
Who is/were unwilling

In Adam we all would perish God has to do nothing, that is Justice on display.

But God is active and Mercies some, that is Grace on display.

Nobody get injustice.

He is worthy of our Praise!

In Him

Bill

There is nothing that is not simple to understand in that passage:

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

But here goes:

Who / what is Jerusalem = Jerusalem is the primary city in Israel, and where Jesus was when He made the statement.
Who /what are her children = The children are the people in Israel.
What is the relationship between the two
Who would he gather = God desired to gather the children of Israel to Himself
Who is/were unwilling = But the children of Israel were unwilling, often stoning the prophets, and those sent

Maybe you need to tell me what you think it means.

 

[BBAS 64]

As I mentioned elsewhere, Paul states, "has endured with much patience", other translations say "longsuffering", this gives the idea that before they were handed over to blindness, made vessels of wrath, fashioned for wrath, they were exposed to the grace and mercy of God but rejected it. As Romans speaks of blindness:

Rom 1:21-22 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Additionally, Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies, brings up the topic of Pharoah and says that only after Pharoah at earlier times had rejected the light "set Him at naught", did God blind Him for His purposes.

Chap. XXIX. — Refutation of the Arguments of the Marcionites, Who Attempted to Show That God Was the Author of Sin, Because He Blinded Pharaoh and His Servants.

1. “But,” say they, “God hardened the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants.” (Exo_9:35) Those, then, who allege such difficulties, do not read in the Gospel that passage where the Lord replied to the disciples, when they asked Him, “Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?” — “Because it is given unto you to know the mystery of the kingdom of heaven; but to thorn I speak in parables, that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not hear, understanding they may not understand; in order that the prophecy of Isaiah regarding them may be fulfil leading, Make the heart of this people gross and make their ears dull, and blind their eyes. But blessed are your eyes, which see the things that ye see; and your ears, which hear what ye do hear. (Mat_13:11-16; Isa_6:10) For one and the same God [that blesses others] inflicts blindness upon those who do not believe, but who set Him at naught; just as the sun, which is a creature of His, [acts with regard] to those who, by reason of any weakness of the eyes cannot behold his light; but to those who believe in Him and follow Him, He grants a fuller and greater illumination of mind. In accordance with this word, therefore, does the apostle say, in the Second the] to the Corinthians: “In whom the this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ should shine [unto them].” (2Co_4:4) And again, in that to the Romans: “And as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things that are not convenient.” (Rom_1:28) Speaking of antichrist, too, he says clearly in the Second to the Thessalonians: “And for this cause God shall send them the working of error, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but consented to iniquity.” (2Th_2:11)




There is nothing that is not simple to understand in that passage:

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

But here goes:

Who / what is Jerusalem = Jerusalem is the primary city in Israel, and where Jesus was when He made the statement.
Who /what are her children = The children are the people in Israel.
What is the relationship between the two
Who would he gather = God desired to gather the children of Israel to Himself
Who is/were unwilling = But the children of Israel were unwilling, often stoning the prophets, and those sent

Maybe you need to tell me what you think it means.

Good day, FAH

Sure, we are close in our understanding, Thanks for thinking though this with me.

The whole chapter is a series of condemnation against the warped ruling class (killed the prophets V 23, 37 ) called here by Jesus Jerusalem, their misuse use of Authority both religious and political (seat of Moses) over the people of Israel ( her Children). The relation ship between the two i think is clear her children were under the authority of really evil rulers that were worthy of condemnation by Jesus.

Jesus sought to gather their children (Jerusalem), But they Jerusalem (you) were unwilling to let them be lead by another.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

The you / your (pronoun) refers to the noun to whom Jesus is addressing Jerusalem.
If the unwillingness was on the part of the children the (pronoun) would be (they)



I think the context is clear this has nothing to do with Salvation, but the leaders of Israel and the judgment of Woes against them.

In Him,

Bill

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Good day, FAH

Sure, we are close in our understanding, Thanks for thinking though this with me.

The whole chapter is a series of condemnation against the warped ruling class (killed the prophets V 23, 37 ) called here by Jesus Jerusalem, their misuse use of Authority both religious and political (seat of Moses) over the people of Israel ( her Children). The relation ship between the two i think is clear her children were under the authority of really evil rulers that were worthy of condemnation by Jesus.

Jesus sought to gather their children (Jerusalem), But they Jerusalem (you) were unwilling to let them be lead by another.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

The you / your (pronoun) refers to the noun to whom Jesus is addressing Jerusalem.
If the unwillingness was on the part of the children the (pronoun) would be (they)



I think the context is clear this has nothing to do with Salvation, but the leaders of Israel and the judgment of Woes against them.

In Him,

Bill

That is not how the Early Church understood it:

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.