Is it Necessary to Keep the Law?

[reddogs]

Is it important to God that Christians keep the Law, as this is a question which many false ideas and beliefs have created confusion for many Christians. Now, if the works of the law cannot save a person, is it therefore necessary to keep the law? Paul hits on this in Romans 6..

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

In other words, does grace give us a license to disobey the law of God? And we see his answer, 'God forbid.' especially if we ' that are dead to sin'. And if we look we find many ways that Christians try to invent their own definitions which allow or condone lawbreaking. The Bible says sin is violating the Ten Commandments, the law which has been described as done away with or abolished or not applying to Christians. Is this true or are the moral precepts just as needed today as they were when God wrote them on the tables of stone. If you think about it, nothing has happened to make them less binding than they were when God gave them. In fact, scripture shows that Jesus came to magnify the law and to open up its spiritual meaning and application, making it more comprehensive than the legalistic Pharisees ever imagined. From Christ's perfect life of obedience, we can see the spiritual essence of keeping the law which many wouldn't recognize, nor made possible apart from Him.

Even though the law points out sin, it has no power to save from sin. There is no justifying, cleansing grace in it. All the works of all the laws would not be sufficient to save a single soul, for the simple reason that we are saved by grace through faith, as a free gift.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law was not made for the purpose of saving or justifying. It was made to show us the 'knowledge of sin' and our need of cleansing and to point us to the great source of cleansing, Jesus Christ. And it also tells us...
James 1:23-25
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[Gary K]

Is it important to God that Christians keep the Law, as this is a question which many false ideas and beliefs have created confusion for many Christians. Now, if the works of the law cannot save a person, is it therefore necessary to keep the law? Paul hits on this in Romans 6..

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

In other words, does grace give us a license to disobey the law of God? And we see his answer, 'God forbid.' especially if we ' that are dead to sin'. And if we look we find many ways that Christians try to invent their own definitions which allow or condone lawbreaking. The Bible says sin is violating the Ten Commandments, the law which has been described as done away with or abolished or not applying to Christians. Is this true or are the moral precepts just as needed today as they were when God wrote them on the tables of stone. If you think about it, nothing has happened to make them less binding than they were when God gave them. In fact, scripture shows that Jesus came to magnify the law and to open up its spiritual meaning and application, making it more comprehensive than the legalistic Pharisees ever imagined. From Christ's perfect life of obedience, we can see the spiritual essence of keeping the law which many wouldn't recognize, nor made possible apart from Him.

Even though the law points out sin, it has no power to save from sin. There is no justifying, cleansing grace in it. All the works of all the laws would not be sufficient to save a single soul, for the simple reason that we are saved by grace through faith, as a free gift.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law was not made for the purpose of saving or justifying. It was made to show us the 'knowledge of sin' and our need of cleansing and to point us to the great source of cleansing, Jesus Christ. And it also tells us...
James 1:23-25
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

This is very true. Sinful human nature has not changed since the fall so we humans are always looking for an excuse to justify our sins.

Jeremiah 17: 9 ¶ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jeremiah 13: 22 ¶ And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare.*n6
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.*n7

However God is a God of love and He can change our hearts.

Ezekiel 36: 25 ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
.....
31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

The only way we can keep on sinning is to deliberately hang on to our sins for the love of God is the most powerful force in the universe, but He created us as free moral agents so He will not force us to do what do what He wants us to do.

If we end up in the lake of fire it is because of our own choices.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi @reddogs,

A lot of times when people talk about keeping the law, they're actually talking about keeping the principles of the law, not the letters. Is that what you're thinking here?

For example, I don't know of anyone who keeps this law to the letter

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 15:12 - New American Standard Bible

However, an earthenware vessel which the man with the discharge touches shall be broken, and every wooden vessel shall be rinsed in water.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[BobRyan]

Hi @reddogs,

A lot of times when people talk about keeping the law, they're actually talking about keeping the principles of the law, not the letters.'

So then "Do not take God's name in vain" where the person actually does take God's name in vain a lot - but thinks well of doing so??

 

[Leaf473]

So then "Do not take God's name in vain" where the person actually does take God's name in vain a lot - but thinks well of doing so??

I don't think that's the principle about not taking God's name in vain, do you?

What do you believe is the principle of Leviticus 15:12?

 

[Soyeong]

Is it important to God that Christians keep the Law, as this is a question which many false ideas and beliefs have created confusion for many Christians. Now, if the works of the law cannot save a person, is it therefore necessary to keep the law? Paul hits on this in Romans 6..

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

In other words, does grace give us a license to disobey the law of God? And we see his answer, 'God forbid.' especially if we ' that are dead to sin'. And if we look we find many ways that Christians try to invent their own definitions which allow or condone lawbreaking. The Bible says sin is violating the Ten Commandments, the law which has been described as done away with or abolished or not applying to Christians. Is this true or are the moral precepts just as needed today as they were when God wrote them on the tables of stone. If you think about it, nothing has happened to make them less binding than they were when God gave them. In fact, scripture shows that Jesus came to magnify the law and to open up its spiritual meaning and application, making it more comprehensive than the legalistic Pharisees ever imagined. From Christ's perfect life of obedience, we can see the spiritual essence of keeping the law which many wouldn't recognize, nor made possible apart from Him.

Sin is the transgression of any of God's laws, not just ten of them. For example, in James 2:1-11, he was addressing people who had committed the sin of favoritism. Likewise, it is a sin to commit things like rape, kidnapping, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.

Even though the law points out sin, it has no power to save from sin. There is no justifying, cleansing grace in it. All the works of all the laws would not be sufficient to save a single soul, for the simple reason that we are saved by grace through faith, as a free gift.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law was not made for the purpose of saving or justifying. It was made to show us the 'knowledge of sin' and our need of cleansing and to point us to the great source of cleansing, Jesus Christ. And it also tells us...

While God's law has no power to save us from sin, living in obedience to it is what being saved from not living in obedience to it looks like. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is the content of the gift of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. While Paul denies that we can earn our justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31.

 

[Leaf473]

Sin is the transgression of any of God's laws, not just ten of them. For example, in James 2:1-11, he was addressing people who had committed the sin of favoritism. Likewise, it is a sin to commit things like rape, kidnapping, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.


While God's law has no power to save us from sin, living in obedience to it is what being saved from not living in obedience to it looks like. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is the content of the gift of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. While Paul denies that we can earn our justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31.

Hi Soyeong

Shall we practice this today?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 15:12 - New American Standard Bible

However, an earthenware vessel which the man with the discharge touches shall be broken, and every wooden vessel shall be rinsed in water.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Sin is the transgression of any of God's laws, not just ten of them. For example, in James 2:1-11, he was addressing people who had committed the sin of favoritism. Likewise, it is a sin to commit things like rape, kidnapping, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.


While God's law has no power to save us from sin, living in obedience to it is what being saved from not living in obedience to it looks like. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is the content of the gift of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. While Paul denies that we can earn our justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31.

All the things you list violate God's law.

Matthew 7: 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

James calls the ten commandments the royal law and the law of liberty. This is why.

 

[reddogs]

Hi @reddogs,

A lot of times when people talk about keeping the law, they're actually talking about keeping the principles of the law, not the letters. Is that what you're thinking here?

For example, I don't know of anyone who keeps this law to the letter

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 15:12 - New American Standard Bible

However, an earthenware vessel which the man with the discharge touches shall be broken, and every wooden vessel shall be rinsed in water.

www.biblegateway.com

Well how would you read this one...

Exodus 20:14
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Should I keep that one or only in principle and womanize and lust within as that doesnt really break it, or does it...

 

[Soyeong]

Hi Soyeong

Shall we practice this today?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 15:12 - New American Standard Bible

However, an earthenware vessel which the man with the discharge touches shall be broken, and every wooden vessel shall be rinsed in water.

www.biblegateway.com

The law is still eternally valid, though laws in regard to temple practice should only be followed on the condition that there is a temple in which to practice them.

 

[Soyeong]

All the things you list violate God's law.

Matthew 7: 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

James calls the ten commandments the royal law and the law of liberty. This is why.

Everything is the Mosaic Law is an example of how to correctly obey the greatest two commandments, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the others hang on them. James did not say that he was speaking specifically about what was listed in the Ten Commandments, but rather the fact that he was speaking against the sin of favoritism demonstrates that he was not.

 

[Gary K]

Everything is the Mosaic Law is an example of how to correctly obey the greatest two commandments, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the others hang on them. James did not say that he was speaking specifically about what was listed in the Ten Commandments, but rather the fact that he was speaking against the sin of favoritism demonstrates that he was not.

If you will reread my post you will find I did not refer to the 10 commandments. I only mentioned the golden rule.

 

[Soyeong]

If you will reread my post you will find I did not refer to the 10 commandments. I only mentioned the golden rule.

You said:

“James calls the ten commandments the royal law and the law of liberty. This is why.”

There is nothing that indicates that he was specifically referring to just the Ten Commandments.

 

[Gary K]

You said:

“James calls the ten commandments the royal law and the law of liberty. This is why.”

There is nothing that indicates that he was specifically referring to just the Ten Commandments.

I see what is confusing you. We break the10 commandments when we play favorites. James never identifies the 10 commandments but in one place he identifies it as the law of liberty and another as the royal law.

James 1: 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2: 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

The basis of both comments is the 10 commandments. For if we love God supremely we keep the commandments and if we love others as ourselves we do too.

It becomes even plainer we apply this to James' comments on giving the rich man a favored place. If we do are we hoping to get some type of financial reward? I think so. By brown nosing him we are hoping he will send some business our way or give us a generous tip for the favored seat.

 

[Leaf473]

Well how would you read this one...

Exodus 20:14
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Should I keep that one or only in principle and womanize and lust within as that doesnt really break it, or does it...

Well, I believe avoiding lust is the principle of that commandment. So for that commandment, the principle and the letter have a lot of overlap.

But with this law, it looks to me like the principal and the letter do not overlap very much. I don't know of any Seventh-Day observers who keep this law to the letter. That indicates to me that all of us, really, understand the difference between following the principle and following the letter.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 15:12 - New American Standard Bible

However, an earthenware vessel which the man with the discharge touches shall be broken, and every wooden vessel shall be rinsed in water.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

The law is still eternally valid, though laws in regard to temple practice should only be followed on the condition that there is a temple in which to practice them.

Okay... is Leviticus 15:12 a law in regard to Temple practice?

 

[Soyeong]

Okay... is Leviticus 15:12 a law in regard to Temple practice?

Yes, the distinction between someone being clean or unclean is specifically about whether they are permitted to enter the temple.

 

[Soyeong]

I see what is confusing you. We break the10 commandments when we play favorites. James never identifies the 10 commandments but in one place he identifies it as the law of liberty and another as the royal law.

James 1: 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2: 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

The basis of both comments is the 10 commandments. For if we love God supremely we keep the commandments and if we love others as ourselves we do too.

It becomes even plainer we apply this to James' comments on giving the rich man a favored place. If we do are we hoping to get some type of financial reward? I think so. By brown nosing him we are hoping he will send some business our way or give us a generous tip for the favored seat.

You've given no grounds for claiming that the basis of both comments is the Ten Commandments, especially when there is evidence to the contrary. In Psalms 19:7, the Mosaic Law is perfect, in Psalms 119:45, it is of liberty, and in Psalms 119:1-3, it blesses those who obey it, so when James 1:25 speaks about the perfect law of liberty that blesses those who obey it, he was not saying anything about the Mosaic Law that wasn't already said in the Psalms. Moreover, the things listed in James 1:26-27 are not listed as part of the Ten Commandments. Likewise, in James 2:1-8, the command against favoritism and the command to love our neighbor as ourselves are not listed as part of the Ten Commandments.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, the distinction between someone being clean or unclean is specifically about whether they are permitted to enter the temple.

Well, and tithing

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 26:14 - New American Standard Bible

I have not eaten of it while mourning, nor have I removed any of it while I was unclean, nor offered any of it to the dead. I have listened to the voice of the LORD my God; I have acted in accordance with everything that You have commanded me.

www.biblegateway.com

But are you saying that Leviticus 15:12 which deals with smashing earthenware vessels and rinsing wooden vessels, does not currently apply because an unclean person cannot enter the temple, and there is no temple?

 

[Gary K]

Well, I believe avoiding lust is the principle of that commandment. So for that commandment, the principle and the letter have a lot of overlap.

But with this law, it looks to me like the principal and the letter do not overlap very much. I don't know of any Seventh-Day observers who keep this law to the letter. That indicates to me that all of us, really, understand the difference between following the principle and following the letter.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 15:12 - New American Standard Bible

However, an earthenware vessel which the man with the discharge touches shall be broken, and every wooden vessel shall be rinsed in water.

www.biblegateway.com

How would you know? You can read their thoughts?

We've communicated a lot on this site. Do I keep this commandment?

You must be able to read hearts better than God.

1Kings 19: 14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria:
16 And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.*n3
17 And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.
18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.*n4

Elijah thought he was the only worshiper of God left in the nation of Israel and yet there were 7000 people who had not participated in the lustful practice of Baal worship. That's a society as morally corrupt a ours is today and yet there were 7000 left who hadn't given in to licentiousness. I think you badly underestimate the Adventist church.