I see where you are coming from calling the words of Jesus, Himself "consistently irrelevant posts." While yourself posting out-of-context posts from Paul and other NT writers as if their words should take precedence over the words of Jesus.Der Alte: "Nonsense! So, you just make up stuff as you go along, doesn't matter what the Bible says?"
It's you who persistently duck "what the Bible says." by refusing to offer your own interpretations of the relevent texts that make the case for universalism in Revelation, Paul, and elsewhere in the NT. Far from "making stuff up," I present insights from major NT scholars (whom you are oblivious) like Dr. Eugene Boring and Dr. Matthias Rissi. But I'm grateful for your consistently irrelevant posts because they greatly help make my case more persuasive to readers. Indeed, after I represent all the most relevant universalist texts, I shall demonstrate the irrelevance of your predictable texts verse by verse.
Have you now abandoned the pretense of "playing devil's advocate"?Der Alte: "Nonsense! So, you just make up stuff as you go along, doesn't matter what the Bible says?"
It's you who persistently duck "what the Bible says." by refusing to offer your own interpretations of the relevent texts that make the case for universalism in Revelation, Paul, and elsewhere in the NT. Far from "making stuff up," I present insights from major NT scholars (whom you are oblivious) like Dr. Eugene Boring and Dr. Matthias Rissi. But I'm grateful for your consistently irrelevant posts because they greatly help make my case more persuasive to readers. Indeed, after I represent all the most relevant universalist texts, I shall demonstrate the irrelevance of your predictable texts verse by verse.
(4) The Philippian hymn is inspired by Isaiah 45:22-23, which begins with an invitation to universal salvation:
"Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the Earth (45:22)."
It then continues with a prophecy of universal compliance: "To me every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear (45:23)."
Already refuted! I repeat: that just means the wicked will TEMPORARILY punished.
That is so funny! Welcome back!the 'Romanian chorus' (working title only lol)
I'm hearing the sound of heavenly choirs on CF.That is so funny! Welcome back!
Who me? "Who's always goofin' in the halls?"Have you now abandoned the pretense of "playing devil's advocate"?
No. Not you.Who me? "Who's always goofin' in the halls?"
So this thread will play Devil's Advocate in drawing attention to the interpretive challenges posed by these texts
I'm going to have another go at this post. The "insights" of NT scholars, major or otherwise, are meaningless, unless they are exegeting scripture. Sans scripture their opinions are no more compelling than the poetry on public facility walls.***I present insights from major NT scholars (whom you are oblivious) like Dr. Eugene Boring and Dr. Matthias Rissi. ***
Unscriptural, ungrammatical rubbish. Twisting scripture to make it support UR heterodoxyUNIVERSALISM IN 1 CORINTHIANS 15:22-24:
The standard translation of 1 Cor. 15:22-24 must be challenged. It reads:
"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ. THEN COMES THE END, WHEN HE HADS OVE THE KINGDOM TO GOD THE FATHER."
The capitalized translation must be rejected for 3 reasons:
(1) The verb "comes" is NOT present in the Greek text!
(2) The phrase "But each in his own order" implies a sequence of 3 stages of resurrection.
The phrase would not have been added if the sequence were only "Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ" because Christ's resurrection is a given and the phrase about sequence would be unnecessary, even absurd.
(3) A 2-item sequence would contradict Revelation, which teaches 3 resurrections--Jesus' resurrection, the resurrection of believers ("the first resurrection" [19:5] after Jesus' resurrection), and then the implied 2nd resurrection.
Here is the correct translation of 1 Cor. 15:22-24 that eliminates these 3 problems:
"For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. BUT EACH IN HIS OWN ORDER: (a) Christ the first fruits (or "beginning"), (b) then at His coming those who belong to Christ, (c) THEN THE REST (Greek: "telos"--the damned in Hell), when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father."
The Greek "ho telos" can mean "the end in the sense of completion" or "the final step." Thus, in this 3-member series, it means "completion" in the sense of "the rest."
1 Cor. 15:22-25 implies universalism for 5 reasons:
(1) The first "all" is universal; the 2nd "all" parallels the first and is therefore also universal.
This means "ALL shall be made alive," including all in Hell.
(2) Besides Christ, the other 2 resurrected groups are raised "in Christ" and are therefore saved. All Christians are included in the 2nd resurrection phase. That leaves all the damned in Hell to be raised in Christ" (and therefore saved) in the 3rd phase.
(3) Without the 3rd resurrection phase, Paul contradicts Revelation, which teaches 3 phases. The universalist interpretation removes the contradiction in God's Word.
(4) The universalist interpretation adds the 3rd phase that makes sense of the otherwise inexplicable concern not to mix up the correct sequence: "But each in his own order."
(5) The Greek "haparche" (first fruits" also means "beginning" and therefore expects "to telos" as the third in the resurrection series with the complementary meaning "end" in the sense of "completion" or "the rest."
It really is straight forward:II. SOUL RETRIEVALS FROM HELL IN 1 PETER: "He [Christ] was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, on which also he went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison...(1 Peter 3:18-19)."
John 14:6. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
The expression "2nd resurrection" does not occur in the Bible but it is generally assumed to be described in Joh 5:29, 1Co 15:24, and Rev 20:12-13. This resurrection takes place _before_ "the Great White Throne" judgement and the "2nd death" which is described in Rev 20:14-15.The 2nd resurrection cannot refer to "the Great White Throne" judgement of those who are and are not "written in the Book of Life (21:11-15)" because (a) they are not "raised up" to this judgment and (b) the wicked being judged are then experience the judgment of "the 2nd death" in "the lake of fire." The 2nd resurrection, following the 2nd death, raises up the unsaved who have been thrown into the lake of fire (20:15).
Pagan salvation is possible. But not apart from formal profession of faith in Christ. You, yourself, described Jesus' preaching in Hades.(a) Pagan salvation is possible apart from formal profession of faith in Christ (Rom. 2:7, 10, 14-15; Acts 17:30).
It seems that one can come to believe _after_ physical death.
Is your reply different from what I said? My analysis of Joh 11:25-26 was supportive of your view and I expected that you would agree with my message.And how do you reach that conclusion on the authorities cited, sir? Jesus has the keys to death and hades, he can and does raise the dead, restores them to life again, and God makes them all anew, so that every knee will bow, and all things will be subdued to Christ. Is this not all plainly written?
Rev 11:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.First, there is not a shred of evidence that anyone is "resurrected" to the Great White Throne Judgment.
No mention is made of souls being "raised" or "lifted up" for this Judgment.
I grant you that. But it is not real evidence.2nd, your sequence defies the natural and logical parallelism of the sequence: first death, "first resurrection" (of believers), "2nd death" (of the damned in "the lake of fire"), 2nd resurrection (of the damned in"the lake of fire").
There is conflicting data about what happens after the Judgment in Rev 21 and 22. For example:3rd, your interpretation is refuted by the universal worship of God and Christ in Heaven (5:13) and by the implied purpose of the eternally "open gates" "outside" the lake of fire containing the damned.
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