The 'Invisible church' bugs me.

[peregrinus2017]

Having been in a church that would profess the nicene creed, (well, almost) and then preach the idea of the invisible church, I had to ask myself what is the church? If you look to scripture you see some very clear ideas and definitions of what the church is. If you look to the first few centuries of Christian writing, you will get a definite sense of what they believed the church to be and how it functioned. This invisible church idea just isn't to be found.

 

[JIMINZ]

Non-orthodox just have a harder time in this life, because whatever group they align with, they lack a little or a lot of what we have to benefit from. However that sword is two-edged. Being that we have access to everything passed down by the Apostles for our salvation, without adding to it or taking away from it, we certainly also can be that much more responsible to take advantage of it. To whom much is given, much will be required.

God judges each according to the light he has received.

My posts #44 & #50

 

[JIMINZ]

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[JIMINZ]

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[Doug Melven]

Bottom line what the protestants are presenting here is a heresy called syncretistic ecumenism. Amazing how they acknowledge they are wrong on many aspects of the faith.

I don't know of any Protestant that teaches anything other than Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved.
John 14:6, Acts 4:12

 

[~Anastasia~]

My posts #44 & #50

Ok.

If you want to discuss then that's good. Though I will say at the outset that Protestants (especially those from the Radical reformation onwards) tend to mean different things by the same words, or say things differently than we do, as well as have a few built-in assumptions inherited from Catholicism and Calvin and others that can easily lead to misunderstanding.

So let us try to understand one another.

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There is only one way to have a relationship with God and that is through Belief in Jesus Christ and Baptism....Period

We would certainly agree that faith in Christ, repentance from sin, and baptism are the opening of the door and the foundation of faith.

However one proceeds from there (and we would hope one goes on to worship God, read the Scriptures, pray, act in love to fellow believers especially, and so on) ... it must have that foundation.

Though according to Romans 2, all will be judged based on the light they have received. So God CAN save one who has not formally received the Gospel during his lifetime - but that salvation will still be only through Christ, as it is for everyone. There is no other way for man to be saved.

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As I stated above,#44 my Faith is in Jesus Christ, there are no other aspects of the Faith which affect my Salvation through Him.

I'm not sure what led up to this. But certainly we are saved only through Christ. However, we would say that a person cannot use the name of Christ as a safety net if he has not been truly converted - if his heart still loves darkness and opposes God. He must be TRULY converted. But I'm not sure that's what you meant, so I'm not arguing with you.

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Am I not saved then?

That is in no way up to us to judge. That is strictly between yourself and God, as it is for every person.

 

[ArmyMatt]

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Am I not saved then?

yes and no.

 

[JIMINZ]

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[ArmyMatt]

That's a good non-answer, answer.

it's true though

 

[JIMINZ]

Ok.

So let us try to understand one another.

Clarification, I was raised a Catholic, I left the Church and got saved 50 yrs ago.
I am not a Calvinest, I believe he was wrong on a number of levels.

We would certainly agree that faith in Christ, repentance from sin, and baptism are the opening of the door and the foundation of faith.

However one proceeds from there (and we would hope one goes on to worship God, read the Scriptures, pray, act in love to fellow believers especially, and so on) ... it must have that foundation.

Though according to Romans 2, all will be judged based on the light they have received. So God CAN save one who has not formally received the Gospel during his lifetime - but that salvation will still be only through Christ, as it is for everyone. There is no other way for man to be saved.

Agreed.

I'm not sure what led up to this. But certainly we are saved only through Christ. However, we would say that a person cannot use the name of Christ as a safety net if he has not been truly converted - if his heart still loves darkness and opposes God. He must be TRULY converted. But I'm not sure that's what you meant, so I'm not arguing with you.

If a persons heart still loves darkness and opposes God, he is none of HIS
(Gods')

This is where we may have come to a sticking point, I say I have been converted, you say it isn't by some Ritualistic laying on of hands by a Bishop.

I don't see or understand, or believe it the way you do.
I accept what you say you believe in the way you want to believe it, I consider you to be a Brother in Christ, but is that acceptance reciprocated?

That is in no way up to us to judge. That is strictly between yourself and God, as it is for every person.

That is essentially what I just said.

I say I have been Forgiven my sins through the Sacrifice of Jesus, I therefore am a Believer in Jesus, I have been Baptized (Immersed) in the name of the Father of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

As far as I am concerned I have died to the Flesh, I have been Sealed unto the day of Redemption by the Holy Spirit, I have been Reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, and the workings of the Cross.

There is a lot more but, they are the details of what I believe, that I'm sure would differ from the details of what you believe.

As far as I am concerned, we are both Children of God, and Brothers in Christ.

Peace

 

[JIMINZ]

Thanks.

 

[ArmyMatt]

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In your mind you know exactly what you mean, to me it is evasive, it's an answer by someone who has a definite belief on a subject, but is unwilling to speak his heart on the matter.

Does our mutual belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of our lives make us enemy's, just because of the operation of that mutual Faith?

As I said to Anastasia, as far as I am concerned we are both Children of God and Brothers in Christ.

Peace.

of course we are not enemies.

but that being said, our faith in Christ is not mutual. those who are not Orthodox are not in the Body of Christ.

now, to answer the question, you are saved because of the saving work of Christ. however, to accept that saving work one must be in the Body which is the Church He started.

obviously, since it is possible to convert at death or even Judgment Day, we would not say even if you die outside of Orthodoxy you are lost. we leave that to God.

so we do say that salvation is only within the Orthodox Church, but when people join is from now til the End. and any one of us who are Orthodox could fall away at any point too.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Clarification, I was raised a Catholic, I left the Church and got saved 50 yrs ago.
I am not a Calvinest, I believe he was wrong on a number of levels.



Agreed.



If a persons heart still loves darkness and opposes God, he is none of HIS
(Gods')

This is where we may have come to a sticking point, I say I have been converted, you say it isn't by some Ritualistic laying on of hands by a Bishop.

I don't see or understand, or believe it the way you do.
I accept what you say you believe in the way you want to believe it, I consider you to be a Brother in Christ, but is that acceptance reciprocated?



That is essentially what I just said.

I say I have been Forgiven my sins through the Sacrifice of Jesus, I therefore am a Believer in Jesus, I have been Baptized (Immersed) in the name of the Father of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

As far as I am concerned I have died to the Flesh, I have been Sealed unto the day of Redemption by the Holy Spirit, I have been Reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, and the workings of the Cross.

There is a lot more but, they are the details of what I believe, that I'm sure would differ from the details of what you believe.

As far as I am concerned, we are both Children of God, and Brothers in Christ.

Peace

I am a sister in Christ.

And I accept anyone who claims Christ as a brother or sister in Christ (at least assuming that they at least believe in the Divinity of Christ, etc - not that He was simply a prophet, creature, angel, or what have you. But as long as you believe that Christ is God incarnate and claim Him as your salvation, then as far as I am concerned I accept you as a brother/sister. Being clear of course that judgement isn't up to me. I simply refuse to condemn. If you say you are Christ's then who am I to argue?

As far as being "saved" ... we will be ultimately saved (past tense) after the final judgement. Until then we are all speculating. Not that we don't have some confidence that we are following Christ, if we are. But we believe that apostasy is possible, God forbid. So we don't presume to speak in a final sense.

It's hard to discuss these things without giving a wrong impression though. I like an explanation I saw that included the statement - I was saved 2000 years ago through Christ's Incarnation, I am being saved right now through the work of the Holy Spirit in my life, God willing I will one day be saved, when He pronounces it so.

It's only a little more than 2 minutes of explaining but it sums everything up well - if you want to understand what I mean, please watch.

Ultimately the Church - the Body of Christ - the Bride - will not be completed until the end.

Right now I think the best any of us can do is to seek Truth and follow it. The advantage I've found in Orthodoxy is that it hasn't added all the things Catholicism did, and so therefore is also not missing all the things Protestants felt compelled to strip away in their efforts to restore and return to the Truth as best each of them was able. I don't wish anything bad to anyone as a result of whatever they have inherited as their faith. I've been through a lot of places along the way myself.

Peace to you as well. Thank you for your post.

 

[Rescued One]

Sure, Jesus isn't limited to whom He can save. Doesn't change the fact that there cannot be hundreds of thousands of different ideas of who Jesus is and for them all to be correct.

Be one with Jesus by being in His one church.

I will follow Jesus. His sheep follow Him. I didn't realize this is The Ancient Way forum nor did I come to argue. I came to explain.

If you think I have to be Eastern Orthodox, that's fine. I believe we have to follow Jesus.

Acts 2:47
...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I will follow Jesus. His sheep follow Him. I didn't realize this is The Ancient Way forum nor did I come to argue. I came to explain.

If you think I have to be Eastern Orthodox, that's fine. I believe we have to follow Jesus.

Acts 2:47
...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

yes, but there was only one Church at that time. there were not multiple confessions. you cannot separate Christ from the one historical Body He founded.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Jackson stated above

<<Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins, so that power went extinct in the physical church after they died. >>

I do hope that you intended this sentence to read that Protestants believed that <<Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins, so that power went extinct in the physical church after they died. >>

That's what they believe. Jesus' church was supposed to prevail against the Gates of Hell, but prots had other ideas.

 

[Rescued One]

yes, but there was only one Church at that time. there were not multiple confessions. you cannot separate Christ from the one historical Body He founded.

Does God add to His Church in the twenty-first century or has He become incapacitated?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does God add to His Church in the twenty-first century or has He become incapacitated?

of course He does. people join Orthodoxy all the time. I joined in the 21st century as did a lot of folks on here.

 

[betterorworse]

Growing up I heard all Christian denominations, particularly protestant or evangelical ones, being referred to as 'the Church'.

Apparently this is their interpretation of what Jesus did when He founded His church which the gates of Hell shall never overcome.

I would think that a Holy church wouldn't be filled with thousands of different denominations contradicting one another, and be susceptible to constant additions and changes.
What's a good response to someone that refers to the invisible church?

The only separation in the world is between good and evil.

God remains God.

 

[Rescued One]

of course He does. people join Orthodoxy all the time. I joined in the 21st century as did a lot of folks on here.

I believe God saves whom He will.