The 'Invisible church' bugs me.

[FenderTL5]

I don't know of any Protestant denomination that doesn't agree with the Nicene Creed and hold it as their statement of faith. Do you?

yes.
The tradition I left from my youth rejected all creeds (Independent Baptists, although it could possibly be argued they had developed their own creeds which had no resemblance to the Nicene/Apostles creed).

I could be wrong but I think most, if not all, of the restoration movement churches also reject the Nicene Creed.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

As a child you heard as a child, not understanding the meaning the adults were using as they understood the things they were speaking of, therefore your understanding has a different slant on it.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

.
Can't you read, it's Christ whom we trust. not some guy with a funny hat.

Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins. Jesus made the church, so you don't trust Him.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

2 Corinthians 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

So apparently the Apostle Paul is the original Gnostic.

Philippians 2:12

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Look at the church in the first century that Paul wrote to.
The reasons he wrote his letters was to correct wrong doctrine that was in the church already.

Evangelicals are so determined their theology is correct and that the Apostles were Evangelicals, a letter would never convince them.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't have time to read this entire thread. So I wish to remind visitors if it hasn't been said already, this is The Ancient Way, which is the EO subforum.

That said, this thread clearly has followed a path that would be better suited for St. Justin's where debate is allowed.

Perhaps it ought to be moved there. Or anyone who is not Eastern Orthodox who wishes to debate should start a thread there.

I don't want to see folks get in trouble for breaking forum rules. TAW is non-debate, and may not have posting that goes against Orthodox teaching.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

.
Didn't the Orthodox Church break away from the Catholic Church, or was it that both of the Churches Excommunicated each other?

Either way that makes you a Protestant as well, otherwise you would be together as One Church.

What an idiotic thing to say. There is one church, there was a break. The church that broke off is protestant. It's pathetic that anyone would believe that their Western denomination that didn't exist before the English language existed could ever possibly be the church with any relation to the Apostles.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

So are we judging others by which denomination they happen to be attending? The Lord knows those who are His and He is with them.

John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

All of us are at different stages of learning. The time will come when the true believers will know all truth.

1 Corinthians 13
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Peter 3
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


https://www.gotquestions.org/grow-in-grace.html

Sure, Jesus isn't limited to whom He can save. Doesn't change the fact that there cannot be hundreds of thousands of different ideas of who Jesus is and for them all to be correct.

Be one with Jesus by being in His one church.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

I don't have time to read this entire thread. So I wish to remind visitors if it hasn't been said already, this is The Ancient Way, which is the EO subforum.

That said, this thread clearly has followed a path that would be better suited for St. Justin's where debate is allowed.

Perhaps it ought to be moved there. Or anyone who is not Eastern Orthodox who wishes to debate should start a thread there.

I don't want to see folks get in trouble for breaking forum rules. TAW is non-debate, and may not have posting that goes against Orthodox teaching.

That literally never happens in TAW. Prots every time.

 

[~Anastasia~]

But as I see was posted pretty quickly - the "invisible church" is a modern interpretation that is not found in Scripture and was not taught by the Apostles.

HOWEVER ... this does NOT mean that we say non-Orthodox are condemned to hell. Only God judges. We also cannot presume that we ourselves are already "saved" only because we are formally inside the Church. The final judgement is not yet, and there can be (almost certainly are) tares among the wheat.

God will judge both those inside and outside the Church.

Non-orthodox just have a harder time in this life, because whatever group they align with, they lack a little or a lot of what we have to benefit from. However that sword is two-edged. Being that we have access to everything passed down by the Apostles for our salvation, without adding to it or taking away from it, we certainly also can be that much more responsible to take advantage of it. To whom much is given, much will be required.

God judges each according to the light he has received.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That literally never happens in TAW. Prots every time.

Well Jackson - to be fair - you tend to hit on every controversial issue that they can't help but respond to.

If they think they are already judged as "not saved" you can't blame them for wishing to respond.

Also some might consider the label "prots" to be inflammatory.

 

[FenderTL5]

Evangelicals are so determined their theology is correct and that the Apostles were Evangelicals, a letter would never convince them.

Even when there is a 'head knowledge' to the contrary, the evangelical tradition(s) I have been in and around have a difficult time grasping that the epistles were written to specific congregations. These existing churches were real places celebrating the Eucharist, performing baptisms and chrismations, they had a bishop and deacon(s) and were doing the stuff of church before the epistles were ever written. Even when this is understood, the letters are still treated as if they were written to to no one in particular and 'everyone' at the same time and the reality gets lost in all the personal, individual application(s) and proof-texting.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Well Jackson - to be fair - you tend to hit on every controversial issue that they can't help but respond to.

If they think they are already judged as "not saved" you can't blame them for wishing to respond.

Also some might consider the label "prots" to be inflammatory.

I don't always feel like typing the whole word. The Prots who believe the Apostles were KJV only-ist Baptists or whatever should be regarded as cultists. The Baptist upbringing I had looks like a cult the more I think about it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Even when there is a 'head knowledge' to the contrary, the evangelical tradition(s) I have been in and around have a difficult time grasping that the epistles were written to specific congregations. These existing churches were real places celebrating the Eucharist, performing baptisms and chrismations, they had a bishop and deacon(s) and were doing the stuff of church before the epistles were ever written. Even when this is understood, the letters are still treated as if they were written to to no one in particular and 'everyone' at the same time and the reality gets lost in all the personal, individual application(s) and proof-texting.

Agree.

Just consider the common question "is your church/denomination based on the Bible?" The thinking today is to start with the Bible and build a belief system.

Coming from that, it's really hard to wrap your head around a CHURCH that was established by Christ, through the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, through the Apostles. A Church that was active, developed, flourishing, and growing for decades without a word of the New Testament having been written, and a very long time before it was all written and collected as we have it today.

Scripture says that the CHURCH is the pillar and ground of the Truth. As such, the Church must have the Truth - not disagree on every single point of doctrine, which disagreement can be found somewhere if one looks among all the denominations today.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't always feel like typing the whole word. The Prots who believe the Apostles were KJV only-ist Baptists or whatever should be regarded as cultists. The Baptist upbringing I had looks like a cult the more I think about it.

I understand. But ... the more people feel insulted the less likely they are to hear what is actually being said. You were complaining about responses. I'm only saying that these little things can make it worse. What you do with that is up to you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't always feel like typing the whole word. The Prots who believe the Apostles were KJV only-ist Baptists or whatever should be regarded as cultists. The Baptist upbringing I had looks like a cult the more I think about it.

(And btw - I don't mean not to support your opinion. I find those who are naive enough to think the KJV is the only Inspired text of God to be tiresome ... I'm not sure how many mental hoops you have to jump through to reach the point of believing that God wasted more than 15 centuries by delivering Scriptures in the rich Greek language, only to stand aside all that time until an earthly king motivated by the desire to legally divorce his wife had them translated into a language that was only clearly understood by a small slice of humans at a historic point even though it lost fine distinctions in translation - I agree that being dogmatic on that issue is something difficult to reason with.)

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Agree.

Just consider the common question "is your church/denomination based on the Bible?" The thinking today is to start with the Bible and build a belief system.

Coming from that, it's really hard to wrap your head around a CHURCH that was established by Christ, through the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, through the Apostles. A Church that was active, developed, flourishing, and growing for decades without a word of the New Testament having been written, and a very long time before it was all written and collected as we have it today.

Scripture says that the CHURCH is the pillar and ground of the Truth. As such, the Church must have the Truth - not disagree on every single point of doctrine, which disagreement can be found somewhere if one looks among all the denominations today.

I think the problem is that the New Testament doesn't mention anything about bishops. It mentions the Apostles, but I guess Protestants believe there were no Bishops after them. Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins, so that power went extinct in the physical church after they died.

 

[Anhelyna]

Jackson stated above

<<Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins, so that power went extinct in the physical church after they died. >>

I do hope that you intended this sentence to read that Protestants believed that <<Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins, so that power went extinct in the physical church after they died. >>

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think the problem is that the New Testament doesn't mention anything about bishops. It mentions the Apostles, but I guess Protestants believe there were no Bishops after them. Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins, so that power went extinct in the physical church after they died.

It's in the Bible.

Bishops / overseers / episkopos / ἐπίσκοπος

As are priests / presbyters / presbuteros / πρεσβύτερος (a bit of a later understanding as being distinct from bishops)

And deacons / servers / διάκονος

 

[Doug Melven]

What an idiotic thing to say. There is one church, there was a break. The church that broke off is protestant. It's pathetic that anyone would believe that their Western denomination that didn't exist before the English language existed could ever possibly be the church with any relation to the Apostles.

Let your speech be always with grace seasoned with salt that you may know how to answer every man. Col 4:6
I don't see any grace in saying what somebody said is idiotic.