The 'Invisible church' bugs me.

[~Anastasia~]

I believe God saves whom He will.

So do we.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I believe God saves whom He will.

as do we, but only through the Orthodox Church. when and how this happens to any particular individual, God only knows.

 

[~Anastasia~]

as do we, but only through the Orthodox Church. when and how this happens to any particular individual, God only knows.

The only problem with this (and not a problem with you Father, I say this for the sake of non-Orthodox who may read it) is that most of them will "hear" that we seem to be saying "only people who go to an Orthodox Church will be saved".

I think this is the whole problem with the idea of "the invisible Church" ... it has changed the way many Protestants understand "Church" to be ... either a physical building or an unknown membership of true believers.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The only problem with this (and not a problem with you Father, I say this for the sake of non-Orthodox who may read it) is that most of them will "hear" that we seem to be saying "only people who go to an Orthodox Church will be saved".

I think this is the whole problem with the idea of "the invisible Church" ... it has changed the way many Protestants understand "Church" to be ... either a physical building or an unknown membership of true believers.

that's why I said when and how is known to God. it is certainly possible to be saved on Judgment Day, but it's still the True Church which possesses the fullness of the True God's grace and truth which they join.

 

[~Anastasia~]

that's why I said when and how is known to God. it is certainly possible to be saved on Judgment Day, but it's still the True Church which possesses the fullness of the True God's grace and truth which they join.

Right.

I have just seen that it seems something of a default reaction to take it differently than I know you meant.

I think it wasn't until after I had already BEEN Orthodox for a couple of years before I got it myself. But then others might be quicker than me.

It required (for me) going back to understanding what "Church" means in the Scriptures. And that took some time. The world we live in today has messed things up so much from what God established.

 

[~Anastasia~]

(By the way, please know that I was not presuming to correct you!)

 

[ArmyMatt]

(By the way, please know that I was not presuming to correct you!)

no worries if you were, I ain't above correction

 

[~Anastasia~]

no worries if you were, I ain't above correction

I guess none of us are - but in your case not by me lol.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I guess none of us are - but in your case not by me lol.

unless I am wrong, then the loving thing is to correct me.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Be one with Jesus by being in His one church.

But according to the Catholics, that would be them.

 

[~Anastasia~]

unless I am wrong, then the loving thing is to correct me.

Only if I know better. I just mean I wouldn't. But your point is taken. Thank you.

 

[Lukaris]

I think it comes down to that we must believe our church is that of the Lord given to His Apostles. It possesses the apostolic faith; other Christian churches have elements of that faith. We do not assume our individual salvation over our neighbor ( Christian or non - Romans 11:21-22) I would think if anyone strives as a Christian or by their conscience to live by the Lord’s commandments ( Matthew 19:16-19, Romans 13:8-10 etc.) that person can be saved; it is something we must all do but we are only saved by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).

 

[Lukaris]

Dp

 

[ArmyMatt]

But according to the Catholics, that would be them.

so that means folks should investigate to see which one is wrong (or if both are)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Only if I know better. I just mean I wouldn't. But your point is taken. Thank you.

you should though. the heretic Pyrrhus the bishop should have listened to the layman St Maximos the confessor

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I attended this invisible church for about five years. Honestly, I got fried on the place. Couldn't find the altar, the pews were transparent, the hymnals see-through, never could adjust the AC, we didn't know which way to face during worship, and the theology was hard to see. We moved on after we finally found the pastor to tell him so.

 

[Anhelyna]

I would again remind posters in the threads here that this is TAW - The Ancient Way - for Orthodox Christians

Non- Orthodox posters are very welcome to post here in Fellowship but are requested to read , and follow the SoP for this board https://www.christianforums.com/thr...astern-orthodox-statement-of-purpose.7859393/

 

[~Anastasia~]

We really have to go back to the time of the Apostles and learn what the Church is. And what has happened in history since that time.

That's the only way it can begin to be understood. We cannot overlay our understanding of what Christian denominations look like today over the Scriptures and interpret them according to our understanding of modern times and expect to get a true understanding.

I see the message is being misunderstood on a number of points.

That does not mean we are claiming anyone will not be saved. FWIW, we ALSO don't claim someone certainly will be saved just because he was baptized in the Orthodox Church either.

But we must understand what the Church was at the time of the Apostles. Certainly Paul was included in the Church. How else could he go out and establish new Churches? All of which we are still in communion with, btw, except for Rome.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The disciples of John believed, but did not receive the Holy Spirit until they had hands laid on them by Paul.

Acts 19
1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

After baptism, at the same time, we are chrismated - that is receiving the seal of the Holy Spirit.

As a Protestant, that passage didn't quite make sense to me. If they believed and had been baptized (some Protestants today don't even get baptized or put it off) ... why didn't they have the Holy Spirit? They are called "disciples" and Paul asks "since you believed" so they were believers. So if that's enough - why didn't they have the Holy Spirit?


God acts in great mercy today. There are many believers who never even find the Orthodox Church. My family was generations of staunch Baptists, some of whom were missionaries, etc. I believe God saved them and they never even heard of the Orthodox Church. But that's not to say that it is not the continuation of the Church which Christ established - the Church that was always meant to be a single Body. It means rather that God is very great in mercy, and can act however He wants - and He wants to save people. But my family did lack many advantages they could have received from the richness of Orthodoxy. In heaven there is only one Church. And so if I am right and they are "saved" they are now a part of it.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

[Staff edit].

The idea that everyone who believes in Christ and his Gospel is somehow mystically part of some invisible Church does not square with that taught by the Apostles and believed by the Early Church. The Fathers recognised that what distinguished orthodox Christians from the many heresies that abounded in the Early Church was not their expressed faith in Christ or their quoting Scripture but rather their preserving the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, as handed down through the visible Church. Many Protestants today do the same that Gnostics did during the time of Irenaeus of Lyons—believing they know better than the visible Church:

“2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they [Gnostics] object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. (Against Heresies 3.2.2)”